Yeah, I tried point defense once.
It was the first module to die from seeker spam.
You had one job, PD turret!
It was the first module to die from seeker spam.
You had one job, PD turret!
Module Reinforcement Package Boost, Seeker Missile Nerf for All Classes, Overall Boost to Hull Tank Builds
- Thread starter ferelmonito
- Start date
Armor it up and it last for longer than the rest of the ship.
Yeah, a reinforced or shielded PDT has like 180 integrity and there aren't any other worthwhile mods for them since even the reinforced ones only weigh 1.25 tons. Any ship small enough for the mass to be prohibitive is usually way faster than any missile.
Last edited:
I knew I was missing something on my DBS. I've been wondering about the utilities on it actually, it's currently running two heatsinks, a chaff and a PDT, but since I stuck a ventbeam on it I'm not having to use sinks so much. Wondering whether to go the ol' double-chaff or get a second PDT.
My explorer/ground assault/mission runner/armed enough to give derps pause DBX has twin PDTs, one on each wing tip, as that's where the best coverage is. Neither of the utility mounts on the Diamondbacks' center line can point forward and down to shoot incoming munitions below canopy level. That utility mount over the canopy looks like it should be able to, but it's deeply recessed and there is this ridge behind the cockpit that several limits PDT coverage.
The first twenty seconds of this give an idea of the forward coverage of those utilities.
Oh wow. I've only been using the centre rear one on my DBX but that only really has to take down guardian skimmer missiles while it's on the ground, so the above-horizon arc is vastly more important. I'll definitely do that for the DBS though since that actually sees combat.
Yea. I always go for reinforced. As you said, the mass doesn't really matter. While the additional power draw of shielded can end up to be inconvenient.
PD turrets don’t seem to handle multiple missile racks very well, either.
I think I was up against three of them once. and it did squat. Fired simultaneously, even from the same ship, some were getting through.
Kinda sucks having to run a PD and an ECM in place of more useful utilities.
Wait. Waaaaaait a minute.
I think I was up against three of them once. and it did squat. Fired simultaneously, even from the same ship, some were getting through.
Kinda sucks having to run a PD and an ECM in place of more useful utilities.
Wait. Waaaaaait a minute.
more utilities for non-ZP mediums when
That's a whole different topic. PDs definitely do not grant missile immunity. Especially not when the attacker uses more than one launcher. So indeed, you can overwhelm PD by launching more munitions.
Interestingly enough, unlike what many people say, the PD reduces a higher percentage of damage from pack hounds than from regular seekers. Pack hounds fly slower per default and their tumbling course increases the distance they have to go. Their tumbling is not enough to throw PD off, but they have a fraction of a seekers health. So at sufficient range, PDs can eliminate like 4 or 5 pack hounds, while only having about a 50% chance of taking down a seeker. (Which still means that you're rather sure to haven one or two explosions on your ship when being attacked with pack hounds, while with seekers the explosion might happen on your ship or away from it. So it indeed feels like PDs do not help vs. pack hounds, although it actually reduced the volume of the salvo hitting you a lot. And of course, pack hounds have a faster load/fire cycle, so they can be spammed to force PD into reloading. ) As soon as engineering effects or a second launcher comes into play, things are strongly in favour of the pack hound, though.
That being said, while PD does not grant missile immunity, it can reduce the damage you take a lot, if you just help it a little to do so. When the enemy fires from short distance, PD has little chance to do anything. Same if he attacks from a direction the PD can't reach. So while the PD looks like a fully automatic and thus passive defense system, it actually only can do its job if the pilot flies accordingly.
So all in all, the PD is in the same category as chaff and ECM. They have their specific use but require the pilot to use them properly to get their best effect.
Also note that it's good that PDs do not grant immunity. Would they do, missile launchers would effectively be removed from the game. I wouldn't consider that to be positive. So all by themselves, when just looking PD vs. missiles, they are at a very reasonable spot. PD on the average reduces incoming damage, while not invalidating the missile systems.
But while things look fine when just checking missiles vs. PD, there's always the elephant in the room: shield boosters. For each and any utility slot you fill, you can always ask yourself, if the current pick helps you more than yet another fully engineered shield booster. And in too many cases, the answer is no.
You often can see setups with most or all utility slots filled up with shield boosters. I'd yet have to see one successful setup, where PD, Chaff or ECM occupy the majority of the utility slots. So really, the problem is not so much if missiles or PDs are too weak or too strong. It's that shield boosters are too dominant.
Last edited:
So let’s say boosters are tweaked a little.
Missile defense is still gonna suck(unless adjusted, somehow) against spam, and our best defense aside from shields themselves will still be top speed.
I’m all for balancing boosters, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. Fdev managed to go from ‘we’ll look at them’ to ‘lol 74% increase’, so I don’t have high hopes.
Even with a change, I just don’t see anything from stopping people equipping a buncha missiles on a Mamba and spamming hull tanks like they do today.
I’m more hopeful for an ECM rework myself. I doubt we’d see a huge backlash like we would over boosters.
Missile defense is still gonna suck(unless adjusted, somehow) against spam, and our best defense aside from shields themselves will still be top speed.
I’m all for balancing boosters, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. Fdev managed to go from ‘we’ll look at them’ to ‘lol 74% increase’, so I don’t have high hopes.
Even with a change, I just don’t see anything from stopping people equipping a buncha missiles on a Mamba and spamming hull tanks like they do today.
I’m more hopeful for an ECM rework myself. I doubt we’d see a huge backlash like we would over boosters.
Question is, where would you want them to be? Completely deleting all missiles from the game? Would be bad for the game, should not happen, won't happen.
PDs do work if you give them the chance to do that. Of course, in PvP the enemy also is aware on what to do to prevent that. It's a give and take.
Get a friend who likes to shoot at you. You equip one PD, he equips one normal seeker and one pack hound launcher. You place yourself at like 2 km distance from each other. Motionless. He fires a seeker at you. See what happens. Repeat for a few times. Then do the same for pack hounds.
Of course, combat very rarely ends up being motionless at 2 km and shooting missiles at each other. But doing things this way eliminates a lot of variables, so it's easier to see what PD can do and what it can not do.
Once you saw that, you can work out how to help PD to defeat missiles better. Although yes, it'll also become obvious why PD often seems too weak. It it limited by fields of fire, no matter on which ship it is, it has big blind areas. Also it needs some time to do its job. It can't really harm missiles fired from shorter distances. But if you reduce seekers health enough that PDs would reliably defeat them from short distance, we're back at "you could just as well just delete missile launchers from the game" status. Not good, not desireable.
Would there be no engineering effects, my improvement suggestion would be like this:
- Reduce shield resist against explosions. This would make missiles useful under all circumstances, not only when shields are down.
- Alternatively, introduce thermal damage missiles. They'd be dedicated to kill shields.
- To turn all missile launchers into something like the pack hounds. Many low health missiles, where the PD reliably eliminates a part of them. It's not the "all or nothing" gamble you have against normal seekers, but a predictable percentage of damage lost.
The first part would make missiles much more useful than they are now, while the second part would allow PD to me a much better defense against them, while not completely invalidating them. Unfortunately the whole thing currently would break down due to engineering. Drag and emissive munitions are just too powerful and just one missile hitting the target applies the full effect. The binary "one warhead hits, full effect applied" is just too much, and especially powerful on the pack hound. So these effects would need to be purged with fire or, at the very least, be modified to be stacking debuffs, based on how much damage the missiles delivered on target.
This would mean that a seeker would deliver several stacks, while a pack hound would just inflict one, which would be so little effect that it would normally just be ignored. Get hit by enough pack hounds and the effect will ramp up quickly, but one or another PD would do a really good job in preventing that.
I feel missiles still have their place, and I don’t want to see them completely removed or anything, but something needs adjusted.
The current countermeasures are simply too unreliable, even when more than one is equipped. Maybe tweak the charge up method for ECM, something. Even with multiple missile defense modules, spam will still outpace mostly anything you can do beyond boosting away.
Either your guns end up blowing off, or if you’re in an Alliance ship, your drives go no matter what you do.
I don’t think we should have to stick missile defense modules in three out of four slots just to see some results, considering how powerful missiles are.
Missiles as they are today are capable of ending fights in incredibly short timeframes simply because of their ability to completely wipe out hardpoints before your opponent is even close to exploding.
It just seems off to me.
The current countermeasures are simply too unreliable, even when more than one is equipped. Maybe tweak the charge up method for ECM, something. Even with multiple missile defense modules, spam will still outpace mostly anything you can do beyond boosting away.
Either your guns end up blowing off, or if you’re in an Alliance ship, your drives go no matter what you do.
I don’t think we should have to stick missile defense modules in three out of four slots just to see some results, considering how powerful missiles are.
Missiles as they are today are capable of ending fights in incredibly short timeframes simply because of their ability to completely wipe out hardpoints before your opponent is even close to exploding.
It just seems off to me.
We do have some other countermeasures. Target lock breaker comes to my mind first. Heat sinks also, as long as the enemy doesn't use emissive munitions. (See what I just wrote there, that it's one of the effects which absolutely need to be scaled down. )
On the rest: I am no too much of a PvP player. I fight a duel once a while and that's it. But yes, boosting and giving your PDs time to shoot at missiles does cut them down, as long as the enemy doesn't carry several launchers. And if he does, then hey: that's firepower he did not bring to bear while chewing on my shields. It's a tradeoff.
But on loosing weapons: I think part of the problem here actually is on the players. They all want "perfect" hardpoints, all close to each other, to be able to project maximum firepower to one point when using fixed weapons. This is all fine as long as your shields are up. But when shields are down and a missile hits, the explosion deals damage to all of them.
I for a while have ran my Imperial Clipper as hybrid tank. It has the internals to carry plenty of HRPs and while most people hate the hardpoint placement, the weapons never failed to splash damage. In contrast my hybrid FGS sometimes is already struggling to fire its weapons after three or four missile hits, but my Imperial Clipper was able to take a dozen or more and still was able to fight. And no, it doesn't mean that the Clipper is the best ship there is. But it clearly has some edge when trying to survive missile fire.
So yes, I am aware that missile splash damage can be a huge issue and especially that it drains module reinforcement packages much too fast. But I don't think that boosting PDs too much is the right answer.
On the rest: I am no too much of a PvP player. I fight a duel once a while and that's it. But yes, boosting and giving your PDs time to shoot at missiles does cut them down, as long as the enemy doesn't carry several launchers. And if he does, then hey: that's firepower he did not bring to bear while chewing on my shields. It's a tradeoff.
But on loosing weapons: I think part of the problem here actually is on the players. They all want "perfect" hardpoints, all close to each other, to be able to project maximum firepower to one point when using fixed weapons. This is all fine as long as your shields are up. But when shields are down and a missile hits, the explosion deals damage to all of them.
I for a while have ran my Imperial Clipper as hybrid tank. It has the internals to carry plenty of HRPs and while most people hate the hardpoint placement, the weapons never failed to splash damage. In contrast my hybrid FGS sometimes is already struggling to fire its weapons after three or four missile hits, but my Imperial Clipper was able to take a dozen or more and still was able to fight. And no, it doesn't mean that the Clipper is the best ship there is. But it clearly has some edge when trying to survive missile fire.
So yes, I am aware that missile splash damage can be a huge issue and especially that it drains module reinforcement packages much too fast. But I don't think that boosting PDs too much is the right answer.
TLB just got a stealth nerf not too long ago via cooldown increase, but it’s still one of the better options.
Depending on the ship, you can nearly use a whole launcher’s worth of heat sinks before your shields return, so you can toss that out the window, too.
Depending on the ship, you can nearly use a whole launcher’s worth of heat sinks before your shields return, so you can toss that out the window, too.