Module swapping gone?

Finally some sense.

I recommended a long while ago that in MY VIEW.

Power Specific Modules –
These should only be available to players who are actively pledged to the power in question (after 4 weeks)
If you LEAVE that power, these modules become illegal.
You will not be able to launch from the spaceport, until you sell them.

Faction Specific Ships –
These should only be available to players who are actively pledged to an IMPERIAL / FEDERATION power.
If you LEAVE that power, your vessel becomes impounded at space-dock.
You will not be able to launch from the spaceport, until you sell it.

Here's my take on this: you should be able to keep any power-specific modules after leaving that power, but you should not be able to rebuy them in the event of ship destruction. Fly at your own risk! As for ships I completely agree with you, but there should be a way to pledge directly to the Federation/Empire/Alliance for those of us who are not interested in participating in PowerPlay. EDIT: possibly an option to buy uninsured PP modules off the black market at a markup? Maybe an option to purchase insurance for them from your chosen Superpower or Power?
 
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And you've decided that the insurance company just can't have any dealings with the powers anymore because...?

That's the next step. You'll have to shop around insurance providers to find one that that's licensed by a specific power.

It'll tie in with Statefarm/Progressive in-game ads at stations.
 
Yes, let's make it the opposite of fun and totally expect people to be happy about it.

Because that's the reward every Tru-Gamer® desires: having the rules changed suddenly and silently so they can lose their stuff for no reason.

THAT makes a lot of sense.

Maybe it's too late to make the change now, but it's obviously broken gameplay when half the people playing PowerPlay just play musical factions to get all the modules. This is not in the spirit of the game. See what I said above:

Here's my take on this: you should be able to keep any power-specific modules after leaving that power, but you should not be able to rebuy them in the event of ship destruction. Fly at your own risk! As for ships I completely agree with you, but there should be a way to pledge directly to the Federation/Empire/Alliance for those of us who are not interested in participating in PowerPlay. EDIT: possibly an option to buy uninsured PP modules off the black market at a markup? Maybe an option to purchase insurance for them from your chosen Superpower or Power?
 
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That's the next step. You'll have to shop around insurance providers to find one that that's licensed by a specific power.

It'll tie in with Statefarm/Progressive in-game ads at stations.

There is just the one provider, and it's so powerful it doesn't even need to turn a profit in order to stay in business.

In fact, their whole business model revolves around throwing millions of credits your way for little more than a wink and a smile.

No wonder there's only one, how can you compete with that? :D
 
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Fly at your own risk!

Would you be OK with removing insurance altogether so you can live by your own words?

Would you practice what you're preaching, oh brother?

...those of us who are not interested in participating in PowerPlay.

I really don't see a middle ground in which all players are in equal footing.

We must either have total insurance (as it is right now) or no insurance at all, lest we end up in a situation where the game mitigate risks only for certain groups who have no interest in this or that feature - and that would be just stupid. Punishing people for participating isn't a great way to engage your customers.
 
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Maybe it's too late to make the change now, but it's obviously broken gameplay when half the people playing PowerPlay just play musical factions to get all the modules. This is not in the spirit of the game. See what I said above:

Actually I’d say this has been good for powerplay. A lot of people only go into power play for the modules, you’d have a lot less people getting involved in powerplay if they couldn’t get and keep the modules. At least it brings people in. Does it really matter if they change factions once in a while?
Me for example, I only joined space pony princess because I wanted the shields, but during that time I decided powerplay adds a bit more to the game so I remained in powerplay after I got those shields, although moved to ALD because it suits my bounty hunting play style (just in time for her ranking to plummet).

I think some people have lost sight of the fact this is a game, and main aim is therefore to make it fun and engaging, rather than realistic.
 
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Maybe it's too late to make the change now, but it's obviously broken gameplay when half the people playing PowerPlay just play musical factions to get all the modules.

Removing the ability to get all the modules won't make those people stick to their factions. It will only make them quit PowerPlay altogether. And don't quote me on that, but I think they represent much more than just half of power players.
 
Finally some sense.

I recommended a long while ago that in MY VIEW.

Power Specific Modules –
These should only be available to players who are actively pledged to the power in question (after 4 weeks)
If you LEAVE that power, these modules become illegal.
You will not be able to launch from the spaceport, until you sell them.

Faction Specific Ships –
These should only be available to players who are actively pledged to an IMPERIAL / FEDERATION power.
If you LEAVE that power, your vessel becomes impounded at space-dock.
You will not be able to launch from the spaceport, until you sell it.


This is a game, why don't you just allow people to have fun playing it?
 
Are you even reading this thread? Do you partake in PP at all?

Powers aren't picky in any way, shape or form.

As long as you're pledged, it doesn't matter *at all* if you're working for them or sabotaging them at every turn - they will still pay you a salary and give you all the perks.

They will happily allow you to continue farming all your merits in the nearest system, which is usually over 1000% fortified by friday even though it generates a huge deficit, while your profitable systems sit undefended just 50ly away.

No, powers aren't even a tiny little bit picky. They can't even keep track of what their associates are doing at any given time. You can flip a government to a different one, effectively raising the system's fortification costs without *any* repercussions - it won't even affect your reputation with the power you're sabotaging.

They will PAY you for stabbing them in the back, yet you expect them to somehow enforce a strict control of their gadgets?

Please.

------------

You accept that a corporation will magically pay for 95% of every ship you blow up for no other reason than making your life easier, yet they can't possibly afford to replace PP modules?

How come magic only works this way, but not that way?

The problem here is we're at cross purposes. You're strictly looking at things in a gameplay mechanics sense, whereas some of us are also looking at it from a verisimilitude sense. Note that doesn't mean realism, just the illusion of realism.

So, yes, you CAN abuse the PowerPlay system as you described. But it's pretty obvious that's not the intention of the mechanic. From the perspective of the Power they're not going "You know, let's set up our reward system in a way that people can destroy us from within and we reward them for it."

That's not to say you shouldn't be able to do it if the mechanics allow it - from a story perspective you can imagine yourself being a double agent of sorts, sabotaging your enemy from within. That's fine. But don't confuse that with in-world intention.

Look at it this way, insurance doesn't make a damn lick of sense as it's implemented. They're constantly losing money, but the game "feels" more real by having it than not having it.

But the idea that insurance companies can get all the special modules they want and give them to whoever they want, that makes in-game sense to you? So a guy who was with Aisling but defected and now actively fights against her gets a limitless resupply of her proprietary technology? Nobody is going to say
"Hey, that guy who has cost us over a billion dollars in damages, should we keep sending him replacement prismatic shields?"
"Yeah, it's in his insurance policy."
"Oh, well hey, can't argue with that."

What I (and presumably anikaiful) are talking about is trying to have a chain of logic that feels consistent within a world that obeys its own consistent rules from a story perspective.

It's like comic-book logic. NONE of the Marvel movies make a lick of sense in the real world, but they follow their own consistent world logic.

That's why swapping special modules is fine with me (it magically disappearing makes no sense at all) but so is losing your special module if you lose your ship and aren't alligned with the correct Power (why would they authorize a replacement if you defected or work for the enemy now?).

One bit of latitude I could see from an in-world perspective is that you COULD get it replaced if you left on good terms (not defect) and are not currently aligned with a Power considered an enemy. Then I could see it as a legacy thing they honor.

Not everyone who plays Elite goes with the "it's just a game" line of reasoning. If you're crating your own story as you play, and living in that world, you want the mechanics of the game to at least somewhat reflect it - if only in a comic-book logic sense.

Now sometimes story-sense and game-sense can't work together. That's why we have arguments like this in the first place. So the whole point is to try and find a balance.
 
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Well I can't just have people enjoying things differently than I do, right?

Games are serious business, Sir. :D

I'm just waiting for someone to say it ruins their immersion.

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But the idea that insurance companies can get all the special modules they want and give them to whoever they want, that makes in-game sense to you?

This makes precisely as much sense as that tiny little outpost you last docked at, the one that didn't even have an outfitting option, suddenly finding a new hull and class-A modules for your python for your insurance rebuild.

Nothing about Elite:Dangerous insurance makes sense, because it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to be a game mechanic that allows players to avoid starting from scratch, that's conveniently disguised as an insurance system.

Attempting to redesign the system to "make sense" will ultimately doom the system to failure, because it's far more jarring that some mysterious corporation absorbs 95% of my expense when I slam my python into the side of a station. Your point of contention above is just a tiny little snowflake compared to the Titanic-crushing iceberg that's the bizarre E:D insurance system.
 
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I'm just waiting for someone to say it ruins their immersion.

This is as good a time as any to point out that at no point have I said that because X mechanic is in place that "OMG Elite is ruined!" So far I'm fine with things the way they are and can explain away whatever I think feels extra fuzzy on the logic front. No biggie.

That doesn't mean I can't say what I think would make it feel better to me.

I'd love to see a hardcore mode, for example (though I have my own self-imposed Pilots Ejection Table to make up for that - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=107694 )

I'd love to see exploration outside the bubble be more difficult, so it actually feels like pushing the frontier when going into the unknown.

Neither of these things are likely to ever happen. But I wish they would, and I'm not alone.

But wishing for them or making a case as to why we should have them isn't the same as saying "this game sucks without it." Good Lord I would never play as many hours as I have of a game I didn't love.
 
This is as good a time as any to point out that at no point have I said that because X mechanic is in place that "OMG Elite is ruined!" So far I'm fine with things the way they are and can explain away whatever I think feels extra fuzzy on the logic front. No biggie.

That doesn't mean I can't say what I think would make it feel better to me.

I'd love to see a hardcore mode, for example (though I have my own self-imposed Pilots Ejection Table to make up for that - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=107694 )

I'd love to see exploration outside the bubble be more difficult, so it actually feels like pushing the frontier when going into the unknown.

Neither of these things are likely to ever happen. But I wish they would, and I'm not alone.

But wishing for them or making a case as to why we should have them isn't the same as saying "this game sucks without it." Good Lord I would never play as many hours as I have of a game I didn't love.

From my perspective, all these things are 100% possible in-game right now. You have your pilot's ejection table, you could voluntarily limit yourself to intermediate discovery scanner and a 8 ton fuel tank/class 1 fuel scoop.

I don't see any reason why the game should be altered to force these changes into a system that's been in place for a long time and works quite well, at the risk of alienating a very large number of existing players.

There's no benefit.
 
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The problem here is we're at cross purposes. You're strictly looking at things in a gameplay mechanics sense, whereas some of us are also looking at it from a verisimilitude sense. Note that doesn't mean realism, just the illusion of realism.

Not really, I believe we all want to help make ED a better game.

What I'm looking at is how people want that illusion of realism applied piecemeal, but not wholesale. How they are willing to apply suspension of disbelief where they think it's convenient, but not anywhere else.

So, yes, you CAN abuse the PowerPlay system as you described. But it's pretty obvious that's not the intention of the mechanic. From the perspective of the Power they're not going "You know, let's set up our reward system in a way that people can destroy us from within and we reward them for it."

That's not to say you shouldn't be able to do it if the mechanics allow it - from a story perspective you can imagine yourself being a double agent of sorts, sabotaging your enemy from within. That's fine. But don't confuse that with in-world intention.

I'm not confusing anything. I'm just pointing out that Powers currently don't seem to have the means or the will to enforce their policies on their own agents, so it's not a long stretch to imagine that they also don't have the means or the will to control how insurance companies are using the modules they buy.

Look at it this way, insurance doesn't make a damn lick of sense as it's implemented. They're constantly losing money, but the game "feels" more real by having it than not having it.

I disagree. There's nothing real about the way it works, yet everybody accepts that - because it is convenient.

But the idea that insurance companies can get all the special modules they want and give them to whoever they want, that makes in-game sense to you?

Why is it that this specific issue needs to make sense and follow logic when the whole insurance business doesn't?

So a guy who was with Aisling but defected and now actively fights against her gets a limitless resupply of her proprietary technology? Nobody is going to say "Hey, that guy who has cost us over a billion dollars in damages, should we keep sending him replacement prismatic shields?"
"Yeah, it's in his insurance policy." "Oh, well hey, can't argue with that."

The Powers do not replace anything. The insurance company does.

What bothers me is that people are perfectly comfortable with the fact that nobody with the insurance company ever said "Hey, every single one of our customers has cost us millions of credits in losses, we should stop sending them replacement ships", but then you want to take stuff away from people because "it doesn't make sense".

What I (and presumably anikaiful) are talking about is trying to have a chain of logic that feels consistent within a world that obeys its own consistent rules from a story perspective.

From where I'm sitting, you're not realy proposing a consistent chain of logic. You're advocating for selective application of logic here, but not there - and that would only make the game even more illogical and imbalanced.

NONE of the Marvel movies make a lick of sense in the real world, but they follow their own consistent world logic.

And as I've been pointing out, the game world logic can only be consistent if it applies to everything and, more importantly, to everyone.

Having total insurance is a consistent policy, and so is having no insurance at all. Having partial insurance based solely on what feature you like or dislike in the game isn't consistent.

And claiming otherwise is inconsistent reasoning on your part :)

why would they authorize a replacement if you defected or work for the enemy now?

I believe they just don't care, for the same reason they give you the exact same reward regardless of whether you're helping or sabotaging them.

I believe it is a perfectly acceptable outcome, for the same reason that the insurance company eats a huge loss at every deal they make.

I believe it should not be changed solely on the grounds that "it doesn't make sense", because the whole insurance business doesn't make sense either and I'm yet to see anyone asking to have it removed.

Those mechanisms aren't there to make the game more realistic. They're not there to make sense. They are in place so you can actually have fun and do interesting stuff, instead of wasting all your time with grinding and worrying about your digital holdings.

One bit of latitude I could see from an in-world perspective is that you COULD get it replaced if you left on good terms (not defect) and are not currently aligned with a Power considered an enemy. Then I could see it as a legacy thing they honor.

Once you bought it, it belongs to you. It doesn't belong to them anymore. The 4 week requirement is just to make faction hopping more difficult, it doesn't mean they treat those modules as a badge of honor. Otherwise they would give it to you in a ceremony, instead of selling it to you at EVERY SINGLE STATION IN THE GALAXY.

Now just think about this:

If you meet the requirements, you can buy as many Imperial Hammers in Archon Delaine's space (or any other for that matter) as you want, because every single station in the galaxy that offers outfitting has an infinite supply of every PP module from ALL FACTIONS.

Now tell me again how hard it would be for the insurance company to acquire those modules, when even the enemies have free access to a Power's premium stock. Please explain in minute detail how thorough and strict their control is.

Not everyone who plays Elite goes with the "it's just a game" line of reasoning. If you're crating your own story as you play, and living in that world, you want the mechanics of the game to at least somewhat reflect it - if only in a comic-book logic sense.

Every one of us play the game for our own reasons, and you're well within your rights to state yours.

But when you try to justify it by saying "this should be changed because it doesn't make sense, but that should NOT change even though it doesn't make sense", you're only invalidating your own argument.

You can't really advocate for "consistent logic" if you're only willing to apply it inconsistently.

Now sometimes story-sense and game-sense can't work together. That's why we have arguments like this in the first place. So the whole point is to try and find a balance.

Arguing for a change that will take away from other people the ability to use the prizes they worked to obtain just for the sake of "making sense" cannot be construed as striving for balance when you're reaping immense benefits yourself from similar aspects of the game that also don't make any sense.

You're rationalizing and accepting absurdities that you see as convenient, while applying a completely different set of standards to another absurdity.

You want it to be consistent, that's fine, but be consistent yourself, lest you end up coming across as selfish and short-sighted.
 
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I'm not confusing anything. I'm just pointing out that Powers currently don't seem to have the means or the will to enforce their policies on their own agents, so it's not a long stretch to imagine that they also don't have the means or the will to control how insurance companies are using the modules they buy.


It's entirely possible that there's a greymarket out there for these special modules, and the insurance companies are taking advantage of it.

I've never inspected an insurance-replaced prismatic shield; maybe the serial number is scratched out.
 
You want it to be consistent, that's fine, but be consistent yourself, lest you end up coming across as selfish and short-sighted.

But we're both inconsistent in that front and we both have what we are willing to accept as logical, what we are willing to ignore or handwave, and what somehow breaks the spell.

You said earlier about insurance

There's nothing real about the way it works, yet everybody accepts that - because it is convenient.

Then why have it at all? Why not just get a free ship whenever you die? Because the penalty as it is, labeled as insurance, adds to the "feel" of the game world in a way that doing away with it would not.

And the ultimate problem is none of us are going to agree 100% with what works and what doesn't. Your point by point attempt at dissection fell flat for me because your rationalization doesn't mesh with mine - but neither of us are more right or consistent than the other.

Having the ability to infinitely re-acquire a part that is restricted until certain conditions are met--one of which is being on a Power's side at the time--regardless of who you are currently working for can be just as easily seen as inconsistent. The terms of the agreement for getting the piece have been broken, therefore getting a new one once lost is off the table.

You put your consistency in the Insurance rules. I put my consistency in the Power Play rules. Neither POV is more correct than the other. Your logic breaks my consistency, my logic breaks yours.

That's pretty much all there is to say. We won't agree, we'll argue, and somewhere down the road when everyone has fought and there's just a pile of bodies on the ground, FD will go ahead and do whatever they want anyway :D
 
Removing the ability to get all the modules won't make those people stick to their factions. It will only make them quit PowerPlay altogether. And don't quote me on that, but I think they represent much more than just half of power players.

If that's the case then PowerPlay is just a broken mess that should be torn up at the roots and remade. Though to be sure, I already thought that.

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Would you be OK with removing insurance altogether so you can live by your own words?

Would you practice what you're preaching, oh brother?



I really don't see a middle ground in which all players are in equal footing.

We must either have total insurance (as it is right now) or no insurance at all, lest we end up in a situation where the game mitigate risks only for certain groups who have no interest in this or that feature - and that would be just stupid. Punishing people for participating isn't a great way to engage your customers.


What? There's a clear difference between what I said and your interpretation. Stop taking my words out of context, it's dishonest.
 
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