More AMMO please

[Psycho Romeo]

0) Multi-cannons are used because they are accurate at range while still being kinetic, its very consistent damage as their projectile speed is vastly higher than frags or cannons.

1) Kills per rearm cannons would come up massively ahead, you can use 20 frag ammo on a conda to kill it, i can do the same with 3 cannon shots, on small ships cannons do very high hull damage too providing you can hit, which is the same problem frags face.

2) Frags beat cannons in two ways, shield damage and front-load, in every other way they are outclassed including hull damage, primarily because cannons instakill powerplants and at the range you need to be to compare to frags a powerplant hits almost certain.

3) Your arguments would work for rails, because rails are genuinely superior weapons that are limited by ammunition, frags are niche weapons (like missiles) that are limited by ammunition, the difference between the two seems similar, but infact is completely different.

0) Yes, you are correct. Multicannons would indeed be better at medium range. They would be far superior than frags on slower ships.

1) Forgive me, I had assumed you were referencing the earlier comparison I made regarding medium cannons and cobras. Yes, against something like an anaconda, you would definitely get better ammo efficiency with a cannon than a frag. But like I said, this is a cannon's strength. This is not a frag's strength.

2) Having been a devoted cannon user before picking up frags in 1.3, medium frags absolutely out perform medium cannons ASSUMING that a) they are both at optimal range and b) the target is a shieldless medium ship or smaller. Again, cannons punch above their weight extremely effectively. Heck, in their damage calculation, they count a class higher than their hardpoint.

3) Rails...
Generate a lot of heat
Have a charge time before firing
Have a high power requirement
Have a high power usage
Have a higher ammo cost

Most people prefer these drawbacks to frags. That's understandable.

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Seems to me there is a bigger problem than ammo for frags around.... back in the cave troll. Sorry to say bud, but your opinion is not more important than anyone elses and by calling someone ignorant who only has a valid point of view just shows you up for what you are.

I changed the text. I got mixed up with the names of the people replying and I had thought the same person was repeatedly ignoring otherwise very solid arguments.

Though, you're being trigger happy with calling others tolls, which makes you look pretty silly considering the content of your post. Saying 'your continued ignorance' is hardly trolling.

 

[Derath]

0)
3) Rails...
Generate a lot of heat
Have a charge time before firing
Have a high power requirement
Have a high power usage
Have a higher ammo cost

are all completely true, yet rails are still probably the #1 pvp weapon, thats just how damn good they are lol, if they gave more ammo for rails that would genuinely cause a balance issue.

I hear what your saying for C2 cannons vs C2 frags, I tend to be using the largest variety and never really make comparisons with the smaller ones versus smaller targets, as I'm unlikely to get the frags out for a viper, its not easy to hit a cobra with anything in a big ship unless its badly piloted so I've always stuck with lasers for the better pilots, if I had to pvp versus a cobra i'd be bringing rails

 

[GammaZ]

There are also plasma accelerators, which will probably do damage similar to frags at higher range with bigger ammo reserve and way better shield damage, at a cost of huge power requirements.
IMO limiting ammo is bad way to balance weapons, as it forces frequent resupply and nothing more, but just increasing ammo capacity without adding another balancing factors will probably make this weapons too strong...

 

[torakfade]

Having more ammo in reserve is not a balancing factor; the real balancing is how much ammo is in a clip. If the frag cannons had 3/300 ammo there would be no difference in how you use them (3 shots then reload), only in how much time you can go without resupplying at a station.

Now having 30/300 would be massively overpowered since you could fire 30 rounds in a row and destroy everything, but nobody is asking for that. All we want is being able to fight longer without resupplying, and with frag cannons you have to resupply after every 5-6 kills assuming you take 5 shots per kill (can take less, can take more) and that is definitely not fun.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Having more ammo in reserve is not a balancing factor; the real balancing is how much ammo is in a clip. If the frag cannons had 3/300 ammo there would be no difference in how you use them (3 shots then reload), only in how much time you can go without resupplying at a station.

Now having 30/300 would be massively overpowered since you could fire 30 rounds in a row and destroy everything, but nobody is asking for that. All we want is being able to fight longer without resupplying, and with frag cannons you have to resupply after every 5-6 kills assuming you take 5 shots per kill (can take less, can take more) and that is definitely not fun.

Welcome to the thread. Like I said 8 times before, the right way to use something like this would be for single kill sorties, or missions with a low kill count, like assassination missions or PvP. Running out of ammo is generally less of an issue in these situations. I rarely see the end of my frag ammo reserve because I use them for what I think is undeniably the right way to use them. I find when used like this (which I feel is their correct usage), they have more than enough ammo, as you are returning to station to turn in/pick up missions.

 

[Bootsock]

Fighter planes have used a conveyor system since for ever. Can't see why that would apply to ED. I mean, you wouldn't just have a giant crate filled with ammo, it would have to be a proper system and priced accordingly.

Totally agree with the idea of adding extra ammo bins as modules so long as they are allowed to be targeted as a subsystem and also a critical hit / ammo explosion mechanic is implemented to balance the risk with reward.

 

[torakfade]

Welcome to the thread. Like I said 8 times before, the right way to use something like this would be for single kill sorties, or missions with a low kill count, like assassination missions or PvP. Running out of ammo is generally less of an issue in these situations. I rarely see the end of my frag ammo reserve because I use them for what I think is undeniably the right way to use them. I find when used like this (which I feel is their correct usage), they have more than enough ammo, as you are returning to station to turn in/pick up missions.

I see what you're saying, really, but what I am saying is that giving more ammo would NOT make them more powerful as a weapon; you would use them in the exact same way (3 shots then reload), only without worrying as much about running out of ammo.

And if having more ammo means buying ammo racks - thus occupying internal space, costing money, using up ship power, adding weight to your ship - there would also be downsides to having bigger amounts of ammo. So if you want to be a stealthy killer in a small, agile ship meant for assassinations only you wouldn't need/want the extra ammo, whereas if you want to be a gunship prepared for full-scale warfare you can fill a Python full of missiles/cannon/frag ammo in exchange for bigger costs, power usage and less agility.

I see no downsides to implementing something like this, do you?

 

[Rauminen]

Agreed, get us ammo racks
I'm actually not using ammo based weapons at all for this reason. Used multicannons / cannons in the past as they have a semi-decent capacity - but I really like to stay out longer so just switched to lasers a long time ago.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

1) I see what you're saying, really, but what I am saying is that giving more ammo would NOT make them more powerful as a weapon; you would use them in the exact same way (3 shots then reload), only without worrying as much about running out of ammo.

2) And if having more ammo means buying ammo racks - thus occupying internal space, costing money, using up ship power, adding weight to your ship - there would also be downsides to having bigger amounts of ammo. So if you want to be a stealthy killer in a small, agile ship meant for assassinations only you wouldn't need/want the extra ammo, whereas if you want to be a gunship prepared for full-scale warfare you can fill a Python full of missiles/cannon/frag ammo in exchange for bigger costs, power usage and less agility.

3) I see no downsides to implementing something like this, do you?

1) Ah, I see. You mean that the DPS doesn't change. I consider more than the DPS when figuring a weapon's power though. A weapon that will kill ten times as many targets per sortie is much more powerful.

2) If the ammo rack doubled the weight of the weapon itself per 100% reserve of ammo, I don't think it would be heavy enough to really make a particularly noticeable difference.

3) I don't see downsides to implementing something like this. I've said that since the beginning. But the ammo values are very appropriate. If the module gives +100% ammo, then the frag should get an additional 30, and the cannon should get an additional 100. The relationship of these values does not need to change, because the frag cannon has exactly as much ammo as it needs.

 

[Merox]

The main drawback of these type of weapons is the reserve ammo. Why? Because you spend most of your time traveling in this game, and no one wants to go back to a base after killing 2-3 ships. FD can balance many other ways like: ammo clip size, reload speed, energy draw, dps, muzzle velocity, etc. I'm really sad that the exotic weapons like the railgun is not used enough because it has only 30 ammo. This weapon requires more skill than the others anyway. I would like to see a game with many loadout variations.