General / Off-Topic More than 50 killed in Las Vegas terror attack

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The problem is not with the object, it's the intent (and character) of evil.

If you look at an object as a problem and ignore the intent of it's use, you still have a problem.

As I said, evil doesn't care what it uses.

And THAT is the problem.

There is no abstract "evil". The shooter was not motivated by "evil" like a bad D&D villain

What is true though is that we humans are not stable and trustworthy enough to be around tools of effective violence without incident

If people habitually carried blades, random scuffles would turn serious, even deadly much more often. Blades escalate things. Where people have easy access to firearms, violence turns deadly and spirals out of control much more easily.

Killing each other is psychologically very hard for most humans, unless an effective weapon makes it quick and easy. Then the safeguards don't have time to work. A blow struck in anger is very rarely fatal, a shot all too often is.

Simplifying it all down to "evil" accomplishes nothing. It's just a way to claim nothing needs to be done. Pretending that access to guns is not the key factor in mass murder ignores our entire history since the proliferation of firearms.
 

Minonian

Banned
I
MY opinion. Not necessarily the mindset of the entire nation.

Oh? But when one of the biggest problems of America coming from guns, and violent crimes? Your people do have a mindset about it. :)
And no i'm not generalising! But facts are facts.
 
Yes I am aware of that, it is very logically explained, you begin with the original shots and then you get the reflection echos, but if you click this link https://youtu.be/w5uHYFIKGQc?t=43

At that specific time stamp the "Echo's" begin first without any preceding shot, immediately after the woman in the car confirms that those shots are coming from farther away. So any explanations? The logical conclusions I think are either someone shot back at the original shooter or it's a second shooter.
 
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A think for all victims, rest in peace...

But, weapons aren't the problem, if someone want kill ppl, he'll find many way to do it. Think about 14 july in Nice. The terrorist kill many ppl with a truck ! In europe, the ppl are like sheep, ready for death, because our government denied us the right to protect ourself. If someone try to kill me, i have only my hand and legs to defend myself. All arround the world, government try to unarm ppl in order to control them easly. I'm sorry, but weapons and the right to defend our live isn't the real problem. We'll find for ever mad ppl killing other for nothing our bad reasons. But if someone, a terrorist, a mad killer, or even my own government want kill me our my familly i need and want tools to defend myself.
 
Couple of predictions:

1. Unless a video or note turns up with the shooter pledging to ISIS or shouting "Allah ackbar", this event will not be discribed as "terrorism". This will especially be true if his actions were motivated by "far right" reasoning. He will be described as a "lone gunman", "evil" and "crazed" but not a terrorist.

2. This event will not result in significantly tighter gun control. If a country can look at at 20 primary school kids being shot and do nothing (and even question if it actually happened) then this isn't going to do it either.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
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Firstly, please remember to discuss the post and not the poster

Secondly, this is a extremely sensitive subject, please respect the fact that many people have lost their lives and post with some decorum, restraint and respect.
 
We could discuss UK clubbing massacres, if there had ever been any.

Seal clubbing the poor seal's should own a gun.... but i digress :)

Anyways, guys we will never agree on this subject, and lets just leave at that. That is why you live where you live, and why some of us live where we do.
I don't want to change your way of living, and I hope you don't feel that need to force something down our way. The UK tried that many years ago and that didn't go very well did it :D

Some info are now coming to the surface:
He had modified his weapon, so it was purchased as a semiauto and then modified (illegal) to a full auto rifle.
The big question here is what happened to this guy, why did he snap? his brother don't know and is asking the same question why why why...
 
Very tragic, very terrible. I can only imagine the trauma and pain being suffered by the families of those killed and injured. My thoughts are with them, and i find myself wondering will they get special help from their government over this? Like therapy and maybe financial help etc? It would seem that if your society has the legal potential for this kind of event to take place, you would build in some protection for clearing up the aftermath? I really have no idea if that is a thing or not?

In other news it seems his family are completely shocked about it also (a couple of brothers have expressed this), like it came completely out of nowhere (although his father was a convicted criminal). He was a gambler, did he go too far perhaps? I guess we will find more out about the motive at some point. Still nothing makes these events any less evil for those caught up in them. Crazy.
 
Seal clubbing the poor seal's should own a gun.... but i digress :)

I know your only kidding but IIRC all the UK's seal colonies are in protected reserves and culls are done by shooting a controlled number, by licensed vetted people.

Anyways, guys we will never agree on this subject, and lets just leave at that. That is why you live where you live, and why some of us live where we do.
I don't want to change your way of living, and I hope you don't feel that need to force something down our way. The UK tried that many years ago and that didn't go very well did it :D.

Honesty mate I'm not having a dig, I'm trying to get my head round the I need/must be allowed a gun(s) theory.

I'm a military veteran so I'm familiar with guns, I just don't understand why anyone would want to own a collection of them plus thousands of rounds, I just don't see the use or the point.

I do archery at a competition level I have a target recurve, and about twenty arrows half cheap outdoor ones and half expensive super accurate indoor/competition ones. There's no urge in me to collect more, it would just be extra maintenance and storage. Talking of which I just remembered I've left it in the boot of my car, I'd better put it away.

One of the things that comes up regularly in archery club forums/conversations is what would happen to our hobby if someone went on a longbow rampage. It's probably not likely as you need years of practice to git-gud but I suppose it could happen. The result would probably be leaving the equipment at the club in secure storage, and background checks on archers (similar to firearms clubs). Which would be easier for me as I wouldn't have to remember to try not to go shopping with it in my car and Mrs Stigbob wouldn't give me "the look" for leaving it under the kitchen table.

Some info are now coming to the surface:
He had modified his weapon, so it was purchased as a semiauto and then modified (illegal) to a full auto rifle.
The big question here is what happened to this guy, why did he snap? his brother don't know and is asking the same question why why why...

Proximity to Vegas and reports he was a professional gambler, maybe he had nothing left to lose.
 
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Minonian

Banned
Anyways, guys we will never agree on this subject, and lets just leave at that

Because to think guns in everyone's hand brings world peace and security alongside with freedom, is just foolish? This is not about agreeing. But about who is right, and who is wrong?
 
I know your only kidding but IIRC all the UK's seal colonies are in protected reserves and culls are done by shooting a controlled number, by licensed vetted people.



Honesty mate I'm not having a dig, I'm trying to get my head round the I need/must be allowed a gun(s) theory.

I'm a military veteran so I'm familiar with guns, I just don't understand why anyone would want to own a collection of them plus thousands of rounds, I just don't see the use or the point.

I do archery at a competition level I have a target recurve, and about twenty arrows half cheap outdoor ones and half expensive super accurate indoor/competition ones. There's no urge in me to collect more, it would just be extra maintenance and storage. Talking of which I just remembered I've left it in the boot of my car, I'd better put it away.

One of the things that comes up regularly in archery club forums/conversations is what would happen to our hobby if someone went on a longbow rampage. It's probably not likely as you need years of practice to git-gud but I suppose it could happen. The result would probably be leaving the equipment at the club in secure storage, and background checks on archers (similar to firearms clubs). Which would be easier for me as I wouldn't have to remember to try not to go shopping with it in my car and Mrs Stigbob wouldn't give me "the look" for leaving it under the kitchen table.



Proximity to Vegas and reports he was a professional gambler, maybe he had nothing left to lose.

I know this is an emotional subject to many people, and trust me my family in Europe are of the same opinion as you are.
Then again they also live in areas that are relatively safe.

As I said, I own 3 houses, and one of them are located close to a big city, 14 homicide everyday give or take a few, now I've been in situations where if I didn't had a gun on me, I would have been very uncomfortable, so my point s that we live i different worlds, and you can't guarantee that we will be safe. Not even in Europe can the police give you such guarantee, until I see that the world is becoming truly more safe, then I will discuss removal of weapons, but until then I'm keeping it.
 
2. This event will not result in significantly tighter gun control. If a country can look at at 20 primary school kids being shot and do nothing (and even question if it actually happened) then this isn't going to do it either.

Basically yes. Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once it was decided that the random murders of small children was acceptable that was an end to any prospect of this issue being properly grappled in a serious way.
 
Basically yes. Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once it was decided that the random murders of small children was acceptable that was an end to any prospect of this issue being properly grappled in a serious way.

I don't know how to say this without sounding very cynical or totally heartless, but if we should use that terminology we as humans should start to abolish wars altogether, but there will always be one nutter, one dictator, one authoritarian who want to hell bend other people to do as they say, and they will find a way to make it so, no matter what you do.
 
I know this is an emotional subject to many people, and trust me my family in Europe are of the same opinion as you are.
Then again they also live in areas that are relatively safe.

As I said, I own 3 houses, and one of them are located close to a big city, 14 homicide everyday give or take a few, now I've been in situations where if I didn't had a gun on me, I would have been very uncomfortable, so my point s that we live i different worlds, and you can't guarantee that we will be safe. Not even in Europe can the police give you such guarantee, until I see that the world is becoming truly more safe, then I will discuss removal of weapons, but until then I'm keeping it.

The only emotion I feel is sympathy for the dead/bereaved and bafflement as to lack of interest in prevention.

I've worked and lived in some horrifically violent and utterly lawless places, at home and abroad. As soon as I could afford it/was my own boss I moved somewhere nicer. You live in a free country relocate if you don't feel safe.

The thing with home/self defense weapons is that if you store them safely they are no use to you*, if you don't store them safely they are just as dangerous to you or your loved ones as an intruder. It all depends who gets to it first.



*whoops my bows still in the car
 
The only emotion I feel is sympathy for the dead/bereaved and bafflement as to lack of interest in prevention.

I've worked and lived in some horrifically violent and utterly lawless places, at home and abroad. As soon as I could afford it/was my own boss I moved somewhere nicer. You live in a free country relocate if you don't feel safe.

The thing with home/self defense weapons is that if you store them safely they are no use to you*, if you don't store them safely they are just as dangerous to you or your loved ones as an intruder. It all depends who gets to it first.



*whoops my bows still in the car

To store guns safe is a political slogan, only education how to handle guns will prevent an accident, that includes children.
My children now adults was raised with guns, it was as normal as having a chainsaw or any other tool. Just as you explain the kid to not put the finger in the electrical jack on the wall, you teach them to not touch guns.

But I feel this is where some people get hysterical (not you) and we can't have a normal discussion.
 
I currently live in an area that is relatively safe. I don't even shut my doors at night, let alone lock them, and I don't have any firearms on the property. Then again, I used to live in low-income housing on the bad side of Baltimore in a neighborhood where the local police station was firebombed and I felt pretty safe there too, also without firearms on hand...that comes with minding one's own business, not letting anyone think you have anything worth taking, and knowing the difference between rational fear and hysteria.

I'm simply not comfortable imposing my ideas of what people should or should not have on others. I have extreme difficulty in seeing the appeal of smartphones, alcoholic beverages, anything carbonated, fake sugar, non-fat creamer, cosmetic anything, more than two pairs of shoes, any business suit, a car that costs more than four figures, or the existence of polyester t-shirts...but I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't be able to own these things, even when they are orders of magnitude more likely to kill me than firearms.

Just don't claim that it makes your country safer, that's the intellectually offensive part.

I'm personally much more concerned about threats to my privacy, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, and ability to acquire or transfer property than I am about the minuscule chance that I might be on the receiving end of a bullet.

I don't personally believe that I am universally safer from physical harm because of the presence of firearms, but people thinking they can tell me what I can or cannot do is a clear and present danger. Guns, not so much.

In Las Vegas, the games continue despite the tragedy. Twelve hours after the drama, the players let out a cry of joy when the bartender announces the beginning of the happy hour (drinks cheaper) at the hotel Mandalay Bay (hotel where the killer lived).

:rolleyes:

What do you expect people to do? Interrupt their lives to mourn every stranger that passes? The danger has past, the survivors are being treated. Life, and business, must go on.

In a place with the population of the Vega metro area,

i find myself wondering will they get special help from their government over this? Like therapy and maybe financial help etc? It would seem that if your society has the legal potential for this kind of event to take place, you would build in some protection for clearing up the aftermath? I really have no idea if that is a thing or not?

I'm not sure what makes the lives of people killed in a mass murder, or the families of the survivors, any more or less worthy of consideration than any other victim of tragedy...cause that's what every death is, to someone.

The victims will have the same public services available to them as anyone, though there will certainly be private charities and funds.

And what society doesn't have the potential for such an event?
 
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