More time/space to react to "loitering" warnings

[Micha]

TL;DR:

Aim
Give more time for Commanders to react between issuing a warning and issuing a fine.

Background
(See below)

Suggestion:
2 Options (more detail below):

1. Give more time between issuing warning and incurring fine.

2. Issue warnings in a zone further away from the place where the fines will be incurred.

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1. Give more time between issuing warning and incurring fine.

This is pretty straightforward and should be trivial to implement.

Basically I recently had less than 10 seconds to clear an area after receiving the first "Loitering" warning and being issued with a fine. Now, that's not even enough to react and put the ship in reverse (I was already part-way inside the docking slot of a station), let alone actually clear the area.

Another time I ended up accidentally trespassing on a landing pad in an SRV (I was just exploring a base; wasn't even aware I had gotten onto a pad); same situation, nowhere near enough time to respond to the warning before incurring a fine.

I'd say at a minimum you'd need 30s to react and clear an area; some timing with bigger/heavier ships would be needed.

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2. Issue warnings in a zone further away from the place where the fines will be incurred.

This would take some more dev-resources to implement, but would also be more logical.

Basic premise is that you have a zone around a station/base(*) where, if you don't have the relevant clearance (and are on the sensors), the station would issue warnings that if you proceed from here without getting relevant clearance that you will be fined. Crucially in this zone you DO NOT get fines; just warnings. It's a "yellow" zone.

You'd then still have the current zone (or perhaps expanded slightly), in which you get the actual "trespassing/loitering" warnings and are issued with the fine, as at present.

Anyone boosting through will probably not have time to react, but people approaching at the speed limit should have plenty of time to react if they don't have relevant clearance BEFORE incurring a fine.

(*) It would also be great if Base pads (and any other restricted areas) have the red exclusion-zone markers that we see around installations or certain POIs.


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Background

So while usually this sort of thing is a very minor nuisance at best, in my case it was a major nuisance due to the locations in which I incurred the fines, and as such I think the mechanics should be reviewed.


My first fine was while exploring the Base at, I think it was, Polo Harbour, on my return from DW1 between Colonia and the Bubble. I can't quite remember why I was approaching on SRV, perhaps it was due to the "It's Raining Skimmers" bug we had around then. Anyway, I had never really approached a base in an SRV before so decided to look around a bit. At one stage I accidentally ended up on a landing pad, and, of course, immediately got a "loitering" warning followed by a fine. So that put an end to being able to dock there...


My second time was just the other night at "Explorer's Anchorage". I actually put in a docking request, but for some reason it didn't go through (there's actually no events at all in the Journal, so something didn't work correctly; I shall try to reproduce and file a separate bug report), but as I was also slightly distracted at the time, that didn't register properly with me and I continued my normal careful approach to the station, landing gear down, well under 100m/s.

Suddenly, with the nose of my ship already inside the letterbox, the station suddenly blares out "Loitering", almost immediately followed by "fine". So that puts an end to that as there's no way to pay off the fine anywhere even remotely nearby.


In both cases, yes, ultimately I was in the wrong. However, there was almost zero time to react, and zero prior indication that something was amiss. I am well aware that these loitering mechanics are in place to stop certain nefarious types from blocking others, however, there should at least be a chance to respond to the warnings in time in the event of an honest mistake before incurring fines and instantly becoming "wanted".

Relatedly, I think it's a bit harsh that one immediately becomes "wanted" for such a minor infraction; perhaps "wanted" status should only be incurred once the fine has reached a certain level or hasn't been paid in time. Minor fines should still allow docking in order to pay off the fine.

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Thank you for considering.

 

[Eckee]

What were you doing around that landing pad for 10 seconds?

 

[Captain Thea Kreutzer]

Its not that hard to land a ship.

 

[Hooplah]

...My second time was just the other night at "Explorer's Anchorage". I actually put in a docking request, but for some reason it didn't go through (there's actually no events at all in the Journal, so something didn't work correctly...

I've found the game doesn't always accept fast clicking for a docking request. I hold the button down for about a second waiting for the icons to change to accepted before returning to the front view.

 

[Alwayslate]

Full throttle backwards. If you do this quick and/or in an agile ship you'll get clearance before being fined.

I don't think it's the case that a fine (or a bounty) prevents docking requests (just do it sneaky if you're wanted,you'll still be able to refeul). If there are other players in the same instance, docking requests could be lost due to sync error. Or they are just denied because pads are full.

Before getting wanted, you will be warned by being fined. A fine doesn't get you killed. A bounty does.

 

[Micha]

Suggestion forum, not "git gud" thread; please stay on topic.

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I've found the game doesn't always accept fast clicking for a docking request. I hold the button down for about a second waiting for the icons to change to accepted before returning to the front view.

Interesting; never had that before.

I actually attempted to request docking clearance -twice-. The first time the button just wouldn't work. At all. I completely backed out of the menu and back in for a second attempt, and I -thought- it worked that time. As I said, I was a little distracted, but I'm fairly certain the station issued the standard docking request spiel and a little later it definitely told me to regulate my speed as I was approaching. However, the Journal is completely devoid of any of these events. So -something- wasn't working quite right. I literally cannot remember, nor have a video, what the GUI was showing at the time; I was helping someone in Discord at the same time so relying on the audio a bit.

Full throttle backwards. If you do this quick and/or in an agile ship you'll get clearance before being fined.

Yeah, funny, doesn't work in a heavier ship nor if you already have landing gear deployed.. hence my recommendation to give a little bit more time for those of us not flying Imperial Eagles.

I don't think it's the case that a fine (or a bounty) prevents docking requests (just do it sneaky if you're wanted,you'll still be able to refeul). If there are other players in the same instance, docking requests could be lost due to sync error. Or they are just denied because pads are full.

I backed up and tried to request docking again. This time I got "Docking Denied" due to fine. I didn't want to hang around too much longer before a Security Ship scanned me as I was also showing a "wanted" status. Never really been wanted before so not about to risk what happens with databanks full of exploration data many thousand LY's from the next starport and tens of thousands to the next detention centre.

Didn't notice other players in the instance.

Before getting wanted, you will be warned by being fined. A fine doesn't get you killed. A bounty does.

I didn't get killed. But I did get "wanted" for a 200Cr fine.

 

[Lestat]

....

You been here as long as I have. Is this a new thing or a 3.4 issue?

 

[Alwayslate]

Suggestion forum, not "git gud" thread; please stay on topic.

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Interesting; never had that before.

I actually attempted to request docking clearance -twice-. The first time the button just wouldn't work. At all. I completely backed out of the menu and back in for a second attempt, and I -thought- it worked that time. As I said, I was a little distracted, but I'm fairly certain the station issued the standard docking request spiel and a little later it definitely told me to regulate my speed as I was approaching. However, the Journal is completely devoid of any of these events. So -something- wasn't working quite right. I literally cannot remember, nor have a video, what the GUI was showing at the time; I was helping someone in Discord at the same time so relying on the audio a bit.




Yeah, funny, doesn't work in a heavier ship nor if you already have landing gear deployed.. hence my recommendation to give a little bit more time for those of us not flying Imperial Eagles.


I backed up and tried to request docking again. This time I got "Docking Denied" due to fine. I didn't want to hang around too much longer before a Security Ship scanned me as I was also showing a "wanted" status. Never really been wanted before so not about to risk what happens with databanks full of exploration data many thousand LY's from the next starport and tens of thousands to the next detention centre.

Didn't notice other players in the instance.


I didn't get killed. But I did get "wanted" for a 200Cr fine.

My apologies first. I've never done distant travelling, so I didn't put those stations' status into consideration at first.

In the bubbles, which you may already know, you could just pay fines in the stations. And it's at least 30 seconds before the station's aggressive behavior (including issueing bounties I think, except for assaulting) if you break the laws. That was fine IMO.

Now those two stations you mentioned don't have contact. Maybe that's the reason their C&P system is treated differently. Wanted and access unavailable for fines is not happening everyday, but why do FDev put it that way is beyond me.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Under normal circumstances, the fine *is* the warning, and you get another twenty seconds to clear the pad (or one minute 20 to clear the orbital station), which is plenty of time even in a really slow ship.

With the new C&P system the extremely rare stations that are both without Contacts services and thousands of LY from anywhere else can generate a situation where the fine is massively more severe - the easier solution, if Frontier think it's a problem, would be to give them all Contacts services (as Engineer bases got) rather than messing around with the trespass rules themselves.

 

[Eckee]

Okay I really did read it this time. Number 2 would be immersive, nothing more.

Number 1. Just don’t go in if your docking request is not approved, don’t mess around others’ landing pads. Don’t make traffic controllers busy, be responsible.

 

[Micha]

You been here as long as I have. Is this a new thing or a 3.4 issue?

It's probably been here forever; I just never really got fines before from docking, because I'm very careful to the point that I almost never speed within station areas.

With the new C&P system the extremely rare stations that are both without Contacts services and thousands of LY from anywhere else can generate a situation where the fine is massively more severe - the easier solution, if Frontier think it's a problem, would be to give them all Contacts services (as Engineer bases got) rather than messing around with the trespass rules themselves.

The new station will most likely get Contacts services as the CG next week (or the week after?) proceeds. It's mainly an issue right now. Polo Harbour's on the "Bubble to Colonia Highway" so it's not -that- remote (by Explorer standards). I just shrugged and went to the next one, just a bit sad because I was planning to visit them all. [all the stations between Colonia and the Bubble.]

But anyway, for the OCD players playing lawful characters, even getting a fine might be an issue (certainly it's something I avoid), so there -should- be a reasonable amount of time between verbal warning and fine issued.

My apologies first. I've never done distant travelling, so I didn't put those stations' status into consideration at first.

In the bubbles, which you may already know, you could just pay fines in the stations. And it's at least 30 seconds before the station's aggressive behavior (including issueing bounties I think, except for assaulting) if you break the laws. That was fine IMO.

No worries.

Well, I've cleared one or two fines in the past but not many so I really can't recall the exact mechanics; as far as I remember I went to a system where I -wasn't- wanted and paid it there as I really have no idea what approaching a station while wanted will do. Observing "wanted" NPCs near Stations, they get attacked by station security ships all the time.

 

[Micha]

Okay I reaaly did read it this time. Number 2 would be immersive, nothing more.

Number 1. Just don’t go in if your docking request is not approved, don’t mess around others’ landing pads. Don’t make traffic controllers busy, be responsible.

If you'd "really read it" this time around you'd have noticed that I was certain that I -had- gotten docking clearance. Yes, my bad for being slightly distracted. It (most likely) will never happen again [to me] as it's the first time in 4 years I got it [one], and it's something which will remain in the back of my mind from now on that there -could- be a glitch with the Docking Request protocol. Still, with a little bit better design, this could have been easily avoided while also being more realistic.

 

[Alwayslate]

No worries.

Well, I've cleared one or two fines in the past but not many so I really can't recall the exact mechanics; as far as I remember I went to a system where I -wasn't- wanted and paid it there as I really have no idea what approaching a station while wanted will do. Observing "wanted" NPCs near Stations, they get attacked by station security ships all the time.

I've never tried that because it's simply too risky. IIRC you could still dock there if you sneak through the security using silent running or heat sinks, but all or almost all services will be locked.
If there's a station (with contact, of course) where the minor faction that issued your fines is present, you can pay the fines there.

 

[Eckee]

If you'd "really read it" this time around you'd have noticed that I was certain that I -had- gotten docking clearance. Yes, my bad for being slightly distracted. It (most likely) will never happen again [to me] as it's the first time in 4 years I got it [one], and it's something which will remain in the back of my mind from now on that there -could- be a glitch with the Docking Request protocol. Still, with a little bit better design, this could have been easily avoided while also being more realistic.

Sorry about the reaaly typo, didn’t mean to do that.
Well I agree with number 2. But that would make punishment harsher because you’d have more time and space to react, not the mention extra work to be done by a paid worker. So number 1 and 2 shouldn’t exist at the same time.

I’m not talking about having permission but still getting a fine, that’s a bug report thing.

 

[Micha]

Sorry about the reaaly typo, didn’t mean to do that.
Well I agree with number 2. But that would make punishment harsher because you’d have more time and space to react, not the mention extra work to be done by a paid worker. So number 1 and 2 shouldn’t exist at the same time.

I’m not talking about having permission but still getting a fine, that’s a bug report thing.

1 & 2 are either-or suggestions; I wasn't saying they should be active at the same time. #1 is "easy" to do, #2 is (IMHO) "better". Again, if you read carefully, it says so in the OP.

And yes, I'm going to try to repro the Docking-Request thing (while running a video capture) and raise a bug report if I can. But given that I've never had anything like this in 4 years or so, I'm not holding out much hope for this unless it's a glitch with this particular station.

EDIT: PS: I wasn't picking on the typo.. happens.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Well, I've cleared one or two fines in the past but not many so I really can't recall the exact mechanics; as far as I remember I went to a system where I -wasn't- wanted and paid it there as I really have no idea what approaching a station while wanted will do. Observing "wanted" NPCs near Stations, they get attacked by station security ships all the time.

If you only have Fines, then you can dock normally and safely with the station, and then - except for the rare ones without Contacts - just pay the Fine in Contacts to be allowed access to the services again. No big deal.

If you have a Bounty (will show as red Wanted above your fuel gauge) then you can still dock safely *provided* no authority ship scans you - if they do, everything in range will open fire, probably including the station. Once docked:
- if you have notoriety, you can only access those few services which allow anonymous access
- if you don't have notoriety, you can also pay off the Bounty in Contacts ... but doing so will transport you to the nearest detention centre of the same superpower alignment as the bounty. Out in deep space that might be quite a long way away.