General / Off-Topic mRNA future?

[Stigbob]

And what is this about then?

"Seropositivity estimates for N antibody will underestimate the proportion of the population previously infected due to (i) blood donors are potentially less likely to be exposed to natural infection than age matched individuals in the general population (ii) waning of the N antibody response over time and (iii) recent observations from UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) surveillance data that N antibody levels appear to be lower in individuals who acquire infection following 2 doses of vaccination."

Page 23

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf

Looks like really good news to me and probably explains the low death rate we've got (now). People are still getting ill but as ICU staff keep explaining it's the anti-vaxxers who end up ventilated.

Page 3

"Vaccine effectiveness

Several studies of vaccine effectiveness have been conducted in the UK which indicate that 2 doses of vaccine are between 65 and 95% effective at preventing symptomatic disease with COVID-19 with the Delta variant, with higher levels of protection against severe disease including hospitalisation and death. There is some evidence of waning of protection against infection and symptomatic disease over time, though protection against severe disease remains high in most groups at least 5 months after the second dose.

Population impact

The impact of the vaccination programme on the population is assessed by taking into account vaccine coverage, evidence on vaccine effectiveness and the latest COVID-19 disease surveillance indicators. Vaccine coverage tells us about the proportion of the population that have received 1 and 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines. By 10 October 2021, the overall vaccine uptake in England for dose 1 was 65.5% and 60.4% for dose 2. In line with the programme rollout, coverage is highest in the oldest age groups. We present data on COVID-19 cases, hospitalisations and deaths by vaccination status. Based on antibody testing of blood donors, 98.0% of the adult population now have antibodies to COVID-19 from either infection or vaccination compared to 18.7% that have antibodies from infection alone"

As to your concern about waning N-antibody levels :

page 19 :

"Nucleoprotein (Roche N) assays only detect post-infection antibodies, whereas spike (Roche S) assays will detect both post-infection antibodies and vaccine-induced antibodies. Thus, changes in seropositivity for the Roche N assay reflect the effect of natural infection. Increases in seropositivity as measured by S antibody reflect both infection and vaccination."

Seems to be proof that the vaccine works as the vaccinated don't get infected.

Also from page 23 :

"Seropositivity estimates for S antibody in blood donors are likely to be higher than would be expected in the general population and this probably reflects the fact that donors are more likely to be vaccinated."

 

[Northpin]

in other news what is going on in Israel? one of the most vaccinated countries?

Let me tell you the situation in my country, yesterday, February 8th.

De asemenea, la ATI sunt internate 1.123 de persoane, cu 21 mai mult decât în ziua anterioară. Dintre cei 1.123 pacienți internați la ATI, 967 sunt nevaccinați.

Translation: 1123 patients in Intensive care, out of which 967 are not vaccinated...

This is why the vaccine is good - not necessarily to avoid getting Covid, but to keep the people out of the ICU and to keep the symptoms at a random_cold level

 

[Ian Phillips]

This topic is not about vaccines but about mRNA technology, not all (covid) vaccines are mRNA.

There are long threads about Covid and Vaccines so please use them, and do not bring the discussions there over into this one.

Trying to keep crossover/contamination to a minimum for a clearer discussion, so your help would be appreciated.

 

[Sunyavadin]

This topic is not about vaccines but about mRNA technology, not all (covid) vaccines are mRNA.

Which makes the baffling arguments from those concerned that applications of this tech "modify your DNA" doubly bizarre, because part of the entire point of an mRNA delivery mechanism is that it bypasses that part and just delivers the blueprint for the protein, factory-ready.

Catching a virus, now that can modify your DNA. Lots of things we're exposed to every day are doing it.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

One of our species biggest hidden problems is latent infection with Cytomegalovirus. It's responsible for a multitude of illnesses, and contributes to a huge load on our immune systems to hold it at bay. Almost everybody lives with it- 95% of adults in some surveys. It accelerates cardiovascular diseases, ageing, kidney failure - list is just too long. Its worst manifestations are in infants.

CMV drives immunosenescence. Immunosenescence drives ageing. It's sitting in our DNA as multiple copies, doing nothing but shortening our lifespans and making us sick.

https://pharmanewsintel.com/news/moderna-doses-the-first-participant-in-study-of-cmv-mrna-vaccine

Phase 3 trial mRNA vaccine vs CMV is underway.

 

[Sunyavadin]

Phase 3 trial mRNA vaccine vs CMV is underway.

I'm eagerly awaiting the results of the EBV mRNA vaccine trials. Particularly since we confirmed the link between it and Multiple Sclerosis. so many major debilitating lifelong conditions are caused by endemic diseases considered benign which once upon a time we never even had the technology to even associate a causal link between but which hopefully now we know are directly related, we have the technology to develop novel vaccines against. Particularly where a conventional vaccine may still interact with the factors which trigger the long-term illness.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

At the end of 2019, the combined market capitalization of the five publicly listed companies focusing on mRNA platforms was ~US$15 billion. As of August 2021, that capitalization was more than $300 billion.

- Nature journal

This is like railroads in the 1800's.
We are going to see an explosion of biotech startups. Without any access to the unpublished research, it's impossible to foretell where the breakthroughs will come from. Private firms don't have to publish pipelines.

As of 2021 middle of the year, there were 180 different (publicly known)pipeline projects, each capitalized by around 2 billion USD average, that we know about.

LONDON (AP) — AstraZeneca recorded a big jump in revenue on Thursday as it begins to take a profit from its coronavirus vaccine for the first time.

The company recorded full-year revenues of $37.4 billion, an increase of 38% from the year before at constant exchange rates. Part of the boost came from $4 billion in sales of its COVID-19 vaccine, developed with the University of Oxford.

Already generating value.

 

[lysan]

Looks like really good news to me and probably explains the low death rate we've got (now). People are still getting ill but as ICU staff keep explaining it's the anti-vaxxers who end up ventilated.

Page 3

"Vaccine effectiveness

Several studies of vaccine effectiveness have been conducted in the UK which indicate that 2 doses of vaccine are between 65 and 95% effective at preventing symptomatic disease with COVID-19 with the Delta variant, with higher levels of protection against severe disease including hospitalisation and death. There is some evidence of waning of protection against infection and symptomatic disease over time, though protection against severe disease remains high in most groups at least 5 months after the second dose.

Population impact

The impact of the vaccination programme on the population is assessed by taking into account vaccine coverage, evidence on vaccine effectiveness and the latest COVID-19 disease surveillance indicators. Vaccine coverage tells us about the proportion of the population that have received 1 and 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines. By 10 October 2021, the overall vaccine uptake in England for dose 1 was 65.5% and 60.4% for dose 2. In line with the programme rollout, coverage is highest in the oldest age groups. We present data on COVID-19 cases, hospitalisations and deaths by vaccination status. Based on antibody testing of blood donors, 98.0% of the adult population now have antibodies to COVID-19 from either infection or vaccination compared to 18.7% that have antibodies from infection alone"

As to your concern about waning N-antibody levels :

page 19 :

"Nucleoprotein (Roche N) assays only detect post-infection antibodies, whereas spike (Roche S) assays will detect both post-infection antibodies and vaccine-induced antibodies. Thus, changes in seropositivity for the Roche N assay reflect the effect of natural infection. Increases in seropositivity as measured by S antibody reflect both infection and vaccination."

Seems to be proof that the vaccine works as the vaccinated don't get infected.

Also from page 23 :

"Seropositivity estimates for S antibody in blood donors are likely to be higher than would be expected in the general population and this probably reflects the fact that donors are more likely to be vaccinated."

Keep getting juiced up, I'm still not getting it, and I'm not alone.

 

[Necronaught]

Keep getting juiced up, I'm still not getting it, and I'm not alone.

To think all people needed to do was eat right, exercise and get some sun. Instead people are depending on these emerging technologies, with no long term data, that literally re-writes your DNA. No thanks, I'll stick to my veggies and work outs.

This question has to be asked. What are you classed as after the MRNA tech rewrites your DNA?

I'm witnessing colleagues go off sick regularly. Some seem to have the sniffles all the time. Those of us that held the line and trusted our instincts are fighting fit.

Do I think MRNA has a future? Of course it does. Just not in mine.

 

[Sunyavadin]

It literally does not and cannot rewrite your DNA, that is the point of it.

A virus often rewrites the DNA of your cells to make more virus, it's part of why your body destroys infected cells.
Certain types of vaccine do, by working in the same way as the virus.
mRNA vaccines completely bypass anything that would happen in your cell nucleus, they deliver the end product of a process which would have otherwise started with finding a way to make the cells produce the foreign genetic material.

They temporarily introduce prefabs into your body which it uses to output a protein until they break. Nothing more.

Your DNA is "modified" more every time you go out for a walk in the sun than this would ever be capable of.

 

[lysan]

To think all people needed to do was eat right, exercise and get some sun. Instead people are depending on these emerging technologies, with no long term data, that literally re-writes your DNA. No thanks, I'll stick to my veggies and work outs.

This question has to be asked. What are you classed as after the MRNA tech rewrites your DNA?

I'm witnessing colleagues go off sick regularly. Some seem to have the sniffles all the time. Those of us that held the line and trusted our instincts are fighting fit.

Do I think MRNA has a future? Of course it does. Just not in mine.

People were not only denied their rights and their jobs, an entire para-military culture evolved around digital ids and second-class citizenship over a treatment that was dangerous and didn’t protect you.

A lie that ultimately exposed more people who were at risk but thought they were safe.

An experimental drug that has thousands of side effects, from mild, to handicapping to fatal, that they even convinced you to stick into children who were never at risk in the first place.

Pfizer's Documents - Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency

Documents with a large file size are provided in a .zip file and will need to be uncompressed after download.

phmpt.org

 

[Sunyavadin]

An experimental drug that has thousands of side effects, from mild, to handicapping to fatal, that they even convinced you to stick into children who were never at risk in the first place.

Meanwhile here in the UK where we didn't bother vaccinating kids during the obvious window to do so of the 2021 summer holidays, one in fifty children who've had the disease as it was allowed to rip through schools which had no basic limiting precautions like decent ventilation are now experiencing debilitating long-term illness lasting eight months or more which has massively impacted their education, social life, and day to day living. Many of whom now quite rightly believe their generation was utterly betrayed by not making it available to them.

A vaccine two decades in development finally actually got the funding it needed once it wasn't just China's problem any more. That's how quickly some of the scientific developments that have been sitting on the sidelines for decades could be ready, if they were of any concern to the people with the money. And it's probably one of the most important lessons that'll be ignored from the pandemic.

 

[lysan]

Meanwhile here in the UK where we didn't bother vaccinating kids during the obvious window to do so of the 2021 summer holidays, one in fifty children who've had the disease as it was allowed to rip through schools which had no basic limiting precautions like decent ventilation are now experiencing debilitating long-term illness lasting eight months or more which has massively impacted their education, social life, and day to day living. Many of whom now quite rightly believe their generation was utterly betrayed by not making it available to them.

well, natural immunity are the best solution especially for children.

 

[Northpin]

well, natural immunity are the best solution especially for children.

Survival of the fittest is also universally better, in the animal kingdom.
But we're a bit over that phase. At least for the moment

 

[Sunyavadin]

But yeah, as I was saying, I really hope this isn't the only technology I've been watching develop over the years from before my own graduation from University, which finally gets the attention it deserves. mRNA vaccine tech has been good to go for years, but just wasn't seen as worth the risk of investing the cash it needed until something was ready to bring to market at which point you'd see the usual outcome of some big firm swooping in and buying the patent at the last minute after all the work was done (Which, uh, oh yeah, we pretty much saw anyway once governments had put in the money it needed for the final hurdle).

It's one aspect of a future for medicine, but there are plenty other ones being worked on which could likewise benefit from treating medical advancement like an urgent necessity.

 

[lysan]

Survival of the fittest is also universally better, in the animal kingdom.
But we're a bit over that phase. At least for the moment

Natural immunity is the best protection, the data is undisputable, however if you have an underlying disease you can't get natural immunity because your body will not be able to fight back. So it's not a one size fits all. I'm talking about healthy people especially the young part of the population.

 

[Morbad]

well, natural immunity are the best solution especially for children.

Natural immunity requires an infection, which is much more likely to be harmful without the protection provided by a vaccine (and vastly more risky than the vaccine, even for children). A subsequent infection, if it occurs, will be much less dangerous after having been vaccinated, and result in even better subsequent protection than either could alone. Likewise, even if someone gets infected first, vaccination still provides considerable extra protection vs. subsequent infections.

There is virtually no scenario where someone is better off being unvaccinated, if they are going to be exposed to the virus. Other than severe allergic reactions to a vaccine component (no more likely with mRNA vaccines than any other kind), almost every contraindication to vaccination is a bigger contraindication to infection.

Survival of the fittest is also universally better, in the animal kingdom.
But we're a bit over that phase. At least for the moment

Biological fitness is literally defined by reproductive success. It really doesn't matter how it's done.

Non-sapient animals never had any conscious concern for it, and most human pretensions toward 'fitness' in this regard have always been meaningless as a simple fact of biology. Humanity has quite a low genetic diversity and almost no one's individual genetic characteristics will be meaningful many generations down the line. The gene pool would scarcely get any smaller even if 99.9% of humans, selected at random, just disappeared.

 

[lysan]

Natural immunity requires an infection, which is much more likely to be harmful without the protection provided by a vaccine (and vastly more risky than the vaccine, even for children). A subsequent infection, if it occurs, will be much less dangerous after having been vaccinated, and result in even better subsequent protection than either could alone. Likewise, even if someone gets infected first, vaccination still provides considerable extra protection vs. subsequent infections.

There is virtually no scenario where someone is better off being unvaccinated, if they are going to be exposed to the virus. Other than severe allergic reactions to a vaccine component (no more likely with mRNA vaccines than any other kind), almost every contraindication to vaccination is a bigger contraindication to infection.



Biological fitness is literally defined by reproductive success. It really doesn't matter how it's done.

Non-sapient animals never had any conscious concern for it, and most human pretensions toward 'fitness' in this regard have always been meaningless as a simple fact of biology. Humanity has quite a low genetic diversity and almost no one's individual genetic characteristics will be meaningful many generations down the line. The gene pool would scarcely get any smaller even if 99.9% of humans, selected at random, just disappeared.

That is simply not true, there is plenty of evidence of natural immunity is the best protection.

https://www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/covid-19-why-are-we-ignoring-infection-acquired-immunity-2022a1000ifd?uac=127834AR&impID=4086722&sso=true&faf=1&src=mkm_ret_220315_mscpmrk_perspectiveuk_int

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.abn8014

but keep ignoring facts, I'm not saying you should not be vaccinated, what I'm saying is do not push it by force, let people decide and respect their choice.

 

[Morbad]

That is simply not true, there is plenty of evidence of natural immunity is the best protection.

https://www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/covid-19-why-are-we-ignoring-infection-acquired-immunity-2022a1000ifd?uac=127834AR&impID=4086722&sso=true&faf=1&src=mkm_ret_220315_mscpmrk_perspectiveuk_int

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.abn8014

but keep ignoring facts, I'm not saying you should not be vaccinated, what I'm saying is do not push it by force, let people decide and respect their choice.

Your sources don't even contradict what I've said. I'm not ignoring any facts, but you seem to be missing the point.

Even if natural immunity is vastly better than vaccine acquired immunity, it's still foolish to not get vaccinated, and still preferential to get vaccinated before getting infected, if at all practical.

It doesn't matter one whit if natural immunity is better or not. It matters that vaccination is safe, effective, and complements natural immunity.

 

[metatheurgist]

Recent Oxford study confirms people infected with covid will get brain damage and lose 2% of brain mass. Deniers don't have anything they can afford to lose already. I feel sorry for the kids that will grow up with natural immunity, they will be seriously disadvantaged. If they don't die early from complications.