Murder hobos vs CG piracy

[ChiefRedCloud]

I consider DiD Elite: Dangerous, to be an entirely masochistic concept.

I agree ...

As limpets have thruster on them, couldn't they be used to slow down craft. Disable the drives, fire the hatchbreaker limpet, which also acts as a brake to the ship (using it's own thruster to slow the ship). It has no effect on ships with an active drive as they are not powerful enough to counteract it.

I quite like this idea ....

As for two types, I.e. One for Pirates & one for normal use. The Pirate limpet would most likely be something rigged specifically for their task combining slowing down or stopping the disabled ship & blowing the hatch. Only available in Pirate systems. The other a more generalized one with no hatch blower.

And another point defining this ... larger cargo carriers shout have more cargo available to loot. However if a ship is distroyed & not disabled, it should be assumed that a lot of the cargo would be destroyed also. Thus less cargo all around. This would drive Pirates to not destroy their target (some what, perhaps not completely.

And how about a system wide, at least, emergency call network for those attacked. Who knows, someone human or AI might respond. Making the Pirates job more urgent to complete and depart.

Chief

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Something like that would be great (see suggestions in my sig).

Another idea; when wanted, your rank in the relevant crime would show next to your wanted status, then other players would know what you are wanted for as well as how much of a career criminal you are.

Edit: like this:

http://gdurl.com/rcou

Great idea. We could also have another rank for bounty hunters as well.

 

[NeilF]

Something like that would be great (see suggestions in my sig).

Another idea; when wanted, your rank in the relevant crime would show next to your wanted status, then other players would know what you are wanted for as well as how much of a career criminal you are.

Edit: like this:

http://gdurl.com/rcou

1) Please let's not give griefing/seal clubbing any form of league table/score?

2) Please let's not confuse piracy with illegal destruction of victims.


I'd love a piracy to be improved so it has a reputation which gains you access to nefarious locations and more interesting/better playing missions etc. But this should in no way be associated with failing to pirate and instead destroy your target. Destroying your target (regularly) makes you a bad/poor pirate surely. You ain't going to feed the kids with vapourised cargo!

 

[Vorthax]

One of the problems of PvP piracy is that it is "low risk-low reward". Risk of significant costs (illegally destroyed ships = cost of rebuy + cargo?) could be balanced by bigger rewards if done the correct way.

 

[Hairy Polo]

One of the problems of PvP piracy is that it is "low risk-low reward". Risk of significant costs (illegally destroyed ships = cost of rebuy + cargo?) could be balanced by bigger rewards if done the correct way.

I have to disagree with you just a little there; Pvp Piracy is more high risk, low reward. Us pirate have to deal with or evade bounty hunters, enforcers, gankers, griefers and salt miners ;-) Comes with the job though. For the traders out there, pirates don't have it easy, just in case you thought we did!!!

 

[NeilF]

One of the problems of PvP piracy is that it is "low risk-low reward". Risk of significant costs (illegally destroyed ships = cost of rebuy + cargo?) could be balanced by bigger rewards if done the correct way.

As regards the low/no reward...

Imagine piracy had more of a career to it? By improving your piracy reputation - destroying victims wouldn't do this! - and gaining access to more interesting/nefarious locations (what were asteroid bases for?) and then gaining access to more and more rewarding missions...

eg: Missions pop up to steal the cargo at the current CG. When you hand it in, you get a reward.

Note: Need to consider how this wouldn't be abused. ie: Just handing cargo over to your friend the pirate etc.

 

[Hairy Polo]

As regards the low/no reward...

Imagine piracy had more of a career to it? By improving your piracy reputation - destroying victims wouldn't do this! - and gaining access to more interesting/nefarious locations (what were asteroid bases for?) and then gaining access to more and more rewarding missions...

eg: Missions pop up to steal the cargo at the current CG. When you hand it in, you get a reward.

Note: Need to consider how this wouldn't be abused. ie: Just handing cargo over to your friend the pirate etc.

^^^
Rep. I like that idea too

 

[XW_Ziggy]

from my understanding the plans for C&P/Karma are going to punish me as much as the griefers. i dont understand how fdev can tell the difference between me shooting out some engines and becoming wanted and a guy just randomly going on a killing spree.

i dont think PGs are taking legit pirates on sadly.

If the upcoming C&P system is done sensibly, roleplaying pirates will not be punished the same way as the murder-hobo griefers:

Murder hobos will commit murder. That already carries a higher bounty than just simply shooting someone.
If rebuy costs for the destruction of a victim's ship are being taken into consideration for the upcoming C&P system, piracy should be fine because there's no loss of ship and no rebuy.

Of course piracy should be penalised, it's not a legal occupation - so some risk comes with the job; I assume that's part of what makes it fun for you already....

 

[sovapid]

However, the idea of a declaration of piracy is no less legitimate, as we think it's a cool concept in its own right (plus, it would very likely be possible to feed it into an active karma system anyway)!

Sandro,

You should also look at a declaration of "blockade". If players want to blockade a CG (or Sirius Corp). Something a long the lines of, "you have 20 seconds to leave the system or you will be fired upon."

 

[bigity]

Sandro

Thanks for sharing your thoughts somewhat.

There is a real opportunity here for FDev to implement a real Bounty Hunter reward system that significantly pays dividends to CMDRs who go after PvP gankers & griefers in Open play. Stick huge bounties on them and watch the game evolve 10 fold.

Good luck CMIV

Right after there is a general incentive to play in Open.

 

[CPTVICKERS]

Hello Commander urth!

If you are not destroying ships, it's our intention that the karma system should not really affect you. Most likely we will want to track damage as well, but in general, if you're reasonably effective at taking out drives and using limpets, only the normal crime rules should trigger (you'll be subject to a bounty).

When it comes to "griefing", ship destruction, catastrophic damage and significant disparity between ship strength and player stats are the kinds of things that karma is interested in.

If we end up punishing the behaviour you describe when you pirate, we will be doing it wrong.

hmmmm......

 

[CPTVICKERS]

P.S. there has been community talk about criminal ranking from the start, since it has been a career option since day one. Will it be implemented any time soon? Probably not....

If piracy receives ranking, you know what comes next, bounty hunting ranking....

The only thing I look forward to is the universal bounty as it will encourage pvp bounty hunting, if they make the bounties strong enough for them to be worth while. If they follow the current laws of murdering, bounties will not make the risk/reward scale attractive. Would anyone skip 300LY across the bubble if the most wanted pirate in the galaxy totals a measly 10million? Without it being a matter of pride, probably not.

I seem to recall at some point being able to see CMDR bounties back in the day, on the bulletin board. The most notorious criminals had huge price tags on their heads. Finding them was a bit of a chore, as space was very empty and sadly, they nerfed beloved Viper before I ever collected one. (I could be wrong, my memory is fuzzy from closed beta)

The player bounty system backed by the pilots fed was part of the kickstarter promotion, I have no clue why it is taking so long to implement. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/faqs

But then again, my AI has flown a Panther Clipper XL, and I have not....

I'm waiting to see one, I almost miss the days when I would see NPCs piloting the ships before players could purchase them, it was agonizing fun.

Tie that to the OP? I can't, other than we will have to wait and see if what and when frontier does something to balance things out....

 

[King Boy D]

But to do this well, I think we're going to need NPC comms.

Oh yes, that will be nice.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Don't worry about the Karma mechanics folks; it will take forever and a day to react to your behaviour on some sort of time based metric, which will be easily gameable. FD will NOT add a system which upsets large amounts of its players, so it will be slow, clunky and easily avoided.

For those wanting Karma; I'd suggest lobbying for better more robust block feature because Karma will do nothing to deter the murder-hobo's.

 

[Stigbob]

Don't worry about the Karma mechanics folks; it will take forever and a day to react to your behaviour on some sort of time based metric, which will be easily gameable. FD will NOT add a system which upsets large amounts of its players, so it will be slow, clunky and easily avoided.

For those wanting Karma; I'd suggest lobbying for better more robust block feature because Karma will do nothing to deter the murder-hobo's.

The block's robust enough already I think. The only thing that could be added would be a player searchable block at the menu, and that would be exploitable.

 

[EValve]

Spoiler

I'm so sick of murder hobos hanging around the CGs.

I'm a pirate, which means I'm not trying to kill any traders, trades seem pretty cool with the situation as long as no ones trying to kill em. i always make it clear with what going on with a quick "engines off, submit to scan, this is a robbery", then if they run only take out the engines.
50% of the time I'm not even wanted. but murder hobos are running around the place trying to justify there random attacks by claiming piracy or bounty hunting.
I'm sorry but pirates don't carry anything bigger then pack hounds and also have the mandatory limpet collectors (no ones gonna scoop 30 tons of cargo at a time).
The bounty hunting hobos are attacking while I'm not even wanted claiming I'm a pirate and in turn them selves becoming wanted. how can u bounty hunt something that isn't wanted?

so after the vent cant fdev do something about this... maybe something like GTA online has where if you get enough negative actions placed on your account that you get put into a player pool where your only with other "bad" players, then the hobos can have fun killing each other while the rest of socialized space can carry on blazing there own trail. and please dont tell me to play solo, npc piracy isnt fun and isnt implemented in a way that makes it feel good.

You REALLY don't want that. You'll be right up there in the same instance. With exception to the rule, traders don't like you very much either. Nothing stops them, not even currently, from blocking you, reducing their chances of being instanced with you.
Implementing this sort of feature is like free-fall diving from Mount Everest with no parachute...

We can only wait and see if what they come up with is intelligent enough to discern piracy from non-contextual pvp.

If you're subbed to a power however, its a different ball-game (which also will require consideration in their C&P ).

 

[kofeyh]

If the upcoming C&P system is done sensibly, roleplaying pirates will not be punished the same way as the murder-hobo griefers.

Frontier have no way of determining who is at fault during a high-speed collision in an NFZ. Therefore anything that isn't destroyed in the collision, is destroyed by the station. Somewhat efficient, but it's indiscriminate application of law. If you believe frontier can tell the difference between a pirate and a PKer, when even half the player base can't and lump the two together, then there's a bridge in Sydney I'd love to sell you.

hint: pirates will be the first up against the wall, because karma will have the same lack of contextual capability that speeding does. PKers will just work around it and fundamentally not care. Like they always do. The problem with karma, is that it needs deterministic triggers for it to work as intended. There is no way at present for the game (as far as we know) to tell if a PKer is shooting out your thrusters, or a pirate is.

Frontier need to look at adding context; this means fleshing out piracy so there is a way to signal intent that is based on module fit out and various other factors. People are clinging to karma as though it will solve all the problems and all I see is, essentially, the same thing as speeding in an NFZ, just on a global scale; just indiscriminate application of the law because the game will have no context for inputs.

Fix context; then fix application of law and sanction. Horse, then cart. This in fact is the biggest weakness in ED at present; just an utter lack of contextual triggers, for just about everything. I really think Frontier needs to knuckle down and develop multiple inputs into decision trees (yes this is complicated) so that aspects like karma are actually contextual.

Otherwise; joe blow pirate shoots engines out in three ships over the course of an evening, holds up another 3 with good times for all concerned, and is treated identically to someone who racked up 6 kills with zero input reason. This is 100% failure of a system to do what it's designed to do, and is 100% going to be the outcome without proper planning from Frontier.

 

[Drelthar]

If you believe frontier can tell the difference between a pirate and a PKer, when even half the player base can't and lump the two together, then there's a bridge in Sydney I'd love to sell you.

It's not hard.

Did the player steal cargo?

No?

Then it was just a murder. - record murder hobo level karma

Yes?

Did they kill the other ship?

Yes?

Then they are a murderous pirate - Record murderous pirate karma

No?

Pure Piracy. - Record piracy Karma


Pretty simple isn't it?


You can get more complicated though, add these into it.

Did they use a cargo scanner?

Did they use hatch limpets?

Did they disable thrusters?

Did they disable weapons?

Did they disable power plant?



Of course, a murder hobo could do all of these things, and THEN kill you, however, that's still going to be recorded as a murderous version of whatever your doing, with all the other elements lowering it from pure murder hobo-ness.

But all these other things either require specific equipment (meaning a pure combat focussed PVP build becomes less able to apply the "debuffs" to murder hobo karma) and/or take more time/effort, and at least make it feel more like being pirated, rather than being randomly murdered for no reason/give you more time/chance to escape.

I don't know, it seems fairly easy to at the least, filter out straight up murder hobo random lolz bunnies.
The rest would be incremental, and make sense to be incremental.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

First of all, I'm not even sure why you were replying to me because you went off on such an unrelated tangent from my point, or even your own opening line.

Frontier have no way of determining who is at fault during a high-speed collision in an NFZ.

What utter rubbish,

If there's a high-speed collision in an NFZ resulting in a murder, the other party is:

Guilty if they were speeding at the time of the collision.
Innocent if they were not speeding at the time of the collision.

Crashing into someone at high speed is your fault.
Being flown into by someone else at high speed is not your fault.
If both people were speeding, they are both at fault
If neither were speeding, then neither were at fault - even if the result was that a ship was destroyed. The pilot of the destroyed ship is at fault for being unable to avoid a slow-moving ship and simultaneously being in something so fragile that it cannot survive a low-speed collision.

Your analogy of horse, then cart is also not applicable; PVP is more like chicken and egg in that griefers will look to exploit whatever system is in place, regardless of the context. That is what drives them.