My biggest criticism of the Thargoid War Narrative - Lack of story justification for rebalances.

The war as a whole has been fun as a whole. It's had a few flaws balance-wise, but overall, great job.

My one big criticism is to do with the way things have been rebalanced, from a narrative perspective. Over the course of the war, several changes have been made to the strength of the thargoids, notably their expansion rates, how many times they spawn alerts, the effort it takes to beat them, and so on.

Unfortunately, many of those changes have not been justified from a narrative standpoint. This makes the entire thing feel unplanned, and made me not really want to participate, because it felt like my efforts were just making things worse. If they're just going to nerf things if they're too hard, then me contributing is just pushing back that inevitable nerf, so the best thing I can do is quit. That's also why I actually came back recently; the war has now been rebalanced to allow us to win, so my effort now has meaning again.

I'm not saying that we should have been able to win all along. Rather, I would just like a strong narrative justification for WHY I should be playing at any given time. Let's take a look at the DCOH record of the war.

1714501130578.png

As you can clearly see, there have been at least two major balance changes over the war, and several minor rebalances you can see if you look closer. None of these were really justified in-universe, especially the first massive reduction in the number of alerts.

For me personally, between 2022-11-24 and 2023-03-02, there was little reason for me to play, because nothing we did seemed to really matter.

In this timeframe, it would have been the perfect time to have SPECIFIC tactical goals, and an underlying narrative explaining why we're losing and where hope is. Without that, our only REAL hope is out-of-game, that Fdev will rebalance the narrative, but again, that just encourages players NOT to participate. Something like this would have made a big difference:

Desperate Defense in HIP 21856

Federal shipbuilding facilities in HIP 21856 are under heavy Thargoid attack! Federal response to the unprecedented Thargoid attack has been in disarray, as the majority of Federal vessels are not properly outfitted for AX conflict. Shipbuilding facilities in 21856 were undergoing critical redevelopment to outfit the Fleet with AX weapons and utilities before being attacked.

The Federation asks all Pilots Federation Pilots to immediately fly to HIP 28156 to defend the facilities there until they can be fully retooled.


Then you have a series of systems that are 'critical defense systems' for players to defend while the Titans expand their regions of influence. Once the Titans have gotten far enough out, you complete the construction facilities and bring in the Federal Navy wholesale to defend, perfectly justifying why the Thargoids slow their expansion.

Federal Fleet Fully Repels Thargoids from HIP 21856!
The Federal Fleet, newly retooled with AX weapons and utilities, has finally taken the field! Thanks to a heroic effort by Pilots Federation pilots, orbital overhauling facilities are now capable of retooling dozens of ships per hour, finally allowing Federal forces to take the fight to the Thargoids.

"HIP 21856 is only the beginning," Admiral Tanner said, "As soon as facilities there are locked down, we will be expanding our efforts to all Thargoid fronts. We still have a long way to go, but at least now, we have hope."


Heck, you could even slowly plateau the number of alerts, as the fleet is slowly revamped, allowing for the perfect level of balance, and blame any failures on politics.

This sort of justification and redirection of our efforts would be more than enough to make players at least feel like they're making a difference.

---

Anyway, that's my one critique of the war. Take a little more time to direct efforts and make people feel like they matter, and I think the opinions on the war would be much more unanimously positive.
 
I personally find the Thargoid war/narrative to be utterly non engaging. It just feels disconnected from the actual game. I can't quite put my finger on it but I have never felt any way about it .
Possibly as it is more of an incursion than actual war?
Allegedly it would, even at the original expansion rate, have taken years before anything important in the bubble was under threat.
It is really just a minor skirmish happening around 8 fairly unimportant locations, where the superior technology of the Thargoids is being decimated by, in comparison, a handful of primitives.
 
Possibly as it is more of an incursion than actual war?
Allegedly it would, even at the original expansion rate, have taken years before anything important in the bubble was under threat.
It is really just a minor skirmish happening around 8 fairly unimportant locations, where the superior technology of the Thargoids is being decimated by, in comparison, a handful of primitives.
That is probably right. In general I find 90% of the narrative in ED to be back ground noise more than anything I want to engage in. As I said above, I find it just doesn't connect with anything I am actually doing in game.
 
Overall I agree with your assessment but the content has been fantastic and fun to say the least!

I still remember when all we had was burning stations with no Thargoids in sight never mind real-time atmosphere planetary ports and Orbit Station CZs.



The war as a whole has been fun as a whole. It's had a few flaws balance-wise, but overall, great job.

My one big criticism is to do with the way things have been rebalanced, from a narrative perspective. Over the course of the war, several changes have been made to the strength of the thargoids, notably their expansion rates, how many times they spawn alerts, the effort it takes to beat them, and so on.

Unfortunately, many of those changes have not been justified from a narrative standpoint. This makes the entire thing feel unplanned, and made me not really want to participate, because it felt like my efforts were just making things worse. If they're just going to nerf things if they're too hard, then me contributing is just pushing back that inevitable nerf, so the best thing I can do is quit. That's also why I actually came back recently; the war has now been rebalanced to allow us to win, so my effort now has meaning again.

I'm not saying that we should have been able to win all along. Rather, I would just like a strong narrative justification for WHY I should be playing at any given time. Let's take a look at the DCOH record of the war.

View attachment 391426
As you can clearly see, there have been at least two major balance changes over the war, and several minor rebalances you can see if you look closer. None of these were really justified in-universe, especially the first massive reduction in the number of alerts.

For me personally, between 2022-11-24 and 2023-03-02, there was little reason for me to play, because nothing we did seemed to really matter.

In this timeframe, it would have been the perfect time to have SPECIFIC tactical goals, and an underlying narrative explaining why we're losing and where hope is. Without that, our only REAL hope is out-of-game, that Fdev will rebalance the narrative, but again, that just encourages players NOT to participate. Something like this would have made a big difference:

Desperate Defense in HIP 21856

Federal shipbuilding facilities in HIP 21856 are under heavy Thargoid attack! Federal response to the unprecedented Thargoid attack has been in disarray, as the majority of Federal vessels are not properly outfitted for AX conflict. Shipbuilding facilities in 21856 were undergoing critical redevelopment to outfit the Fleet with AX weapons and utilities before being attacked.

The Federation asks all Pilots Federation Pilots to immediately fly to HIP 28156 to defend the facilities there until they can be fully retooled.


Then you have a series of systems that are 'critical defense systems' for players to defend while the Titans expand their regions of influence. Once the Titans have gotten far enough out, you complete the construction facilities and bring in the Federal Navy wholesale to defend, perfectly justifying why the Thargoids slow their expansion.

Federal Fleet Fully Repels Thargoids from HIP 21856!
The Federal Fleet, newly retooled with AX weapons and utilities, has finally taken the field! Thanks to a heroic effort by Pilots Federation pilots, orbital overhauling facilities are now capable of retooling dozens of ships per hour, finally allowing Federal forces to take the fight to the Thargoids.

"HIP 21856 is only the beginning," Admiral Tanner said, "As soon as facilities there are locked down, we will be expanding our efforts to all Thargoid fronts. We still have a long way to go, but at least now, we have hope."


Heck, you could even slowly plateau the number of alerts, as the fleet is slowly revamped, allowing for the perfect level of balance, and blame any failures on politics.

This sort of justification and redirection of our efforts would be more than enough to make players at least feel like they're making a difference.

---

Anyway, that's my one critique of the war. Take a little more time to direct efforts and make people feel like they matter, and I think the opinions on the war would be much more unanimously positive.
 
That is probably right. In general I find 90% of the narrative in ED to be back ground noise more than anything I want to engage in. As I said above, I find it just doesn't connect with anything I am actually doing in game.
For me it's because the BGS is nonsense. I just can't take anything that happens in the galaxy seriously. At most it's just something I game to get something I want.
 
Rumour was that, when the first few weeks of the war passed, there were complaints that it was stupidly hard and the biggest groups were threatening to stop playing... So it had to be nerfed.

Only a rumour, though...
Not exactly what happened. There was a bug with the weekly timer where it was ticking down by one week every day. Systems that should have been changing gradually over 4 weeks were doing it in 4 days instead, so many of them went to control before anyone could do anything about them.

They had set the targets to be a bit too hard as well and that did need nerfing because they had overestimated the amount of work players could actually do, but that was a side issue. The timer bug was the biggie. There was simply no point doing anything until it was working as intended, hard or not.
 
Not exactly what happened. There was a bug with the weekly timer where it was ticking down by one week every day. Systems that should have been changing gradually over 4 weeks were doing it in 4 days instead, so many of them went to control before anyone could do anything about them.

They had set the targets to be a bit too hard as well and that did need nerfing because they had overestimated the amount of work players could actually do, but that was a side issue. The timer bug was the biggie. There was simply no point doing anything until it was working as intended, hard or not.
I actually think that was intentional. They needed the goids to reach a certain amount of territory so we could retake it. And that is honestly fine; it's perfectly fine to have a 'desperate defense' narrative.

The problem was that it was still portrayed as a war we could win. Rationally, everyone knew we weren't going to beat them back in a few weeks, but we were presented with an apparently hopeless battle and absolutely nothing to really do about it. Even a few key systems to focus player effort and make it feel not completely hopeless would have been enough to direct player effort and make it feel like there was at least hope on the horizon, if not right now.

And that's my big critique. Crystalize the story, justify changes, give us the lore to make it all make sense.

Like, why did the goids suddenly cut their alerts in half? Doesn't really have any justification other than, the devs made the war too hard. Why did we suddenly retain some progress between cycles? Again, they just made it too hard.

But these things could have easily been justified. Why are there less alerts now? Because the Superpower Navies are now equipped with AX weapons and pressuring the Control systems, locking down Thargoid resources. Why are we retaining effort between weeks? Because Search and Rescue teams are now in action, rescuing injured AX teams and putting them back into the fight. And so on, and so forth. Heck, they could make each one be a CG in itself, to make it feel like the players are the ones doing it.

They actually did a bit better of a job from the Thargoid side. Why are the Thargoids suddenly stronger and regaining ground? They built the Spires and are resupplying their forces.

Really, Fdev just need consistency, to make it feel like these things are at least somewhat part of the plan and we're legitimately winning, not just being shepherded along a preset path.
 
I actually think that was intentional. They needed the goids to reach a certain amount of territory so we could retake it. And that is honestly fine; it's perfectly fine to have a 'desperate defense' narrative.
I don't think the timer bug was intentional because it was clearly not working as intended, counting down weeks as days in error as it was, but overwhelming us initially with more systems than we could cope with was absolutely the plan, and was already being achieved with the Goids getting 50 systems a week for 2-3 months before we could turn the tide. We were meant to be initially overwhelmed and then slowly fight back, and I had no problem with that part.
The problem was that it was still portrayed as a war we could win. Rationally, everyone knew we weren't going to beat them back in a few weeks, but we were presented with an apparently hopeless battle and absolutely nothing to really do about it. Even a few key systems to focus player effort and make it feel not completely hopeless would have been enough to direct player effort and make it feel like there was at least hope on the horizon, if not right now.

And that's my big critique. Crystalize the story, justify changes, give us the lore to make it all make sense.

Like, why did the goids suddenly cut their alerts in half? Doesn't really have any justification other than, the devs made the war too hard. Why did we suddenly retain some progress between cycles? Again, they just made it too hard.

But these things could have easily been justified. Why are there less alerts now? Because the Superpower Navies are now equipped with AX weapons and pressuring the Control systems, locking down Thargoid resources. Why are we retaining effort between weeks? Because Search and Rescue teams are now in action, rescuing injured AX teams and putting them back into the fight. And so on, and so forth. Heck, they could make each one be a CG in itself, to make it feel like the players are the ones doing it.

They actually did a bit better of a job from the Thargoid side. Why are the Thargoids suddenly stronger and regaining ground? They built the Spires and are resupplying their forces.

Really, Fdev just need consistency, to make it feel like these things are at least somewhat part of the plan and we're legitimately winning, not just being shepherded along a preset path.
Agree with all this, especially the relating it to the narrative part.
 
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Not exactly what happened. There was a bug with the weekly timer where it was ticking down by one week every day. Systems that should have been changing gradually over 4 weeks were doing it in 4 days instead, so many of them went to control before anyone could do anything about them.

They had set the targets to be a bit too hard as well and that did need nerfing because they had overestimated the amount of work players could actually do, but that was a side issue. The timer bug was the biggie. There was simply no point doing anything until it was working as intended, hard or not.
I did mention the word rumour explicitly, twice, as I'd read the comment online in a couple of places, and know that, more often than not, information posted on the internet by player groups may be only slightly biased...
 
I did mention the word rumour explicitly, twice, as I'd read the comment online in a couple of places, and know that, more often than not, information posted on the internet by player groups may be only slightly biased...
Yeah. :) The first week difficulty balance was a mess and did get a few complaints - at a time when interest in the war was possibly at its highest ever, the combined progress made across all systems in a week was <100%, which is very much "okay, we're just spectators in this". Once in week two that had been dialed back slightly so that it was possible to win 3 systems out of 80ish being attacked that week, people got down to "well, how can we make it 4 next time?" and it was fine.

Something like this would have made a big difference:

Desperate Defense in HIP 21856
I think this has been one of the key difficulties for the narrative side of the war:
- global progress is clearly under Frontier's control (at least when they're paying attention)
- but the Titans have been very carefully placed such that even at their original expansion rate it would have taken at least a year to attack a system anyone had heard of, and possibly the distance-based difficulty would have meant they never actually got that far ... while the size of the bubble meant that the Thargoids taking the whole thing was never a realistic threat.
- so in a "Thargoids advancing" scenario local victories are both relatively unimportant and generally rewarded by "the Thargoids will attack again in four weeks" and likewise local defeats are largely irrelevant unless that was your home system (and if it was, tough, you're not getting it back)

The other problem, of course, has been that by giving system-by-system control of the timing primarily to players, any unexpectedly effective strategy (or even concentration of effort) risks ending up being successful too early for the narrative side, which just leads to trouble. The original (post-2.4) Thargoid skirmishes in the bubble in many respects worked a lot better for being more substantially under Frontier's control. Important systems like Deciat and Kamadhenu got attacked - and then successfully defended, and then left alone rather than inevitably attacked again 4 weeks later.

Of course with hindsight, getting data on how that sort of system-by-system mechanism works and doesn't work so that Powerplay 2 can use it may have been the more important outcome anyway.
 
Agreed. Even small variations from success or failure would have gone a long way to avoiding the feeling that the most effective long-term strategy was to wait for the next update. Having the goals be specific to each Titan could have been interesting as well, I originally hoped that there were eight Titans to allow for some more local variation and experimentation in tactics with each.

Oh, and how about CGs to influence superpower tactics as well as their capabilities? The impact of the superpowers, humanity's main authorities and militaries, has always been poorly represented. How about:

  • From day one, superpower-controlled systems have moderately lower requirements, while independent systems have slightly higher, to account for the impact of the navies. These can rise and fall a bit depending on goals like OP describes.
  • A bit later on, political manouvering regarding the plight of independent systems. Two-way CGs can influence whether specific powers lend their bonus to independent systems, but at the cost of being stretched thin overall. Mahon/Sirius would probably be all for it, Kaine points out they already have the smallest navy (smaller bonus to begin with) and can they really afford to funnel more funds into Sirius. Aisling/Hadrian clash in the Empire, Hudson/Winters in the Federation.
  • Aegis hasn't been reformed yet. They come back for research and modules regardless, but do they also assume shared military influence as before? The "grand unified fleet" already spoken of on GalNet, averaging out the bonus for all three superpowers. It'll help the Alliance a bit and independents some more, but do Federal and Imperial players want to support it if it'll mean sacrificing protection of their own systems? Maybe the Empire and Federation's decision is slightly weighted one way or the other depending on the success of the relevant political figures in previous initiatives. If one power has done really well, they might be even more reluctant to share.
None of these bonuses or changes would be hugely significant, maybe in the range of 5-15%, but it'd feel a lot more involved and consequential.
 
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My only problem with the war is the most impactful stuff doesn't seem to be very fun. Thargoid content has been getting update after update, new feature after new feature, while other gameplay areas have gone mostly unchanged for literal years. I'm personally ready for this war to be over so some more dev time can get devoted to the rest of the game.
 
As AH has shown us over in Helldivers 2 - it doesn't even have to be planned, it just takes a community team member willing to express some ingenuity & creativity in giving the players an ingame narrative reason for why events are happening - even down to minor details like clerical errors in the UI display being "thanks to a case of enemy signal interference".

It really does go a long way towards immersing players in the experience, even if playing just casually.
 
My only problem with the war is the most impactful stuff doesn't seem to be very fun. Thargoid content has been getting update after update, new feature after new feature, while other gameplay areas have gone mostly unchanged for literal years. I'm personally ready for this war to be over so some more dev time can get devoted to the rest of the game.
1000% this ^
 
As AH has shown us over in Helldivers 2 - it doesn't even have to be planned, it just takes a community team member willing to express some ingenuity & creativity in giving the players an ingame narrative reason for why events are happening - even down to minor details like clerical errors in the UI display being "thanks to a case of enemy signal interference".

It really does go a long way towards immersing players in the experience, even if playing just casually.
There's something you're missing though. The warsim in Helldivers is credible (I didn't say realistic!). It took billions of kills to complete one of their objectives. They have a system that counts all sorts of missions towards a goal, not just simplistic one note stuff. Nothing about the warsim in Elite is credible.
 
There's something you're missing though. The warsim in Helldivers is credible (I didn't say realistic!). It took billions of kills to complete one of their objectives. They have a system that counts all sorts of missions towards a goal, not just simplistic one note stuff. Nothing about the warsim in Elite is credible.
It still is abstract like ED.
 
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