My list of ship changes

A know a few ships have got buffs recently, both directly (like the Keelback and Type 7) and through military slots. But some haven't, and here's a list of changes I'd do to balance things out and give more ships a niche. Of particular focus is cargo ships. Multirole ships are always going to have a purpose, but cargo ships are only going to have one - hauling cargo. For them to be considered they need to be better at that one job than similar ships in their class, otherwise players will quickly see them as obsolete. Any thoughts appreciated, these changes are intended to be moderate, just to give some ships new or extended niches. Anyway, here's the list of changes I'm proposing:

  1. Hauler - Upgrade both class 3 compartments to class 4.
  2. Diamondback+Asp Scout - Add one "exploration slot", can be only used for scanners.
  3. Diamondback+Asp Explorer - Add two exploration slots.
  4. Orca+Beluga - Add one exploration slot.
  5. Type-7 - Add fighter capability.
  6. FDL - Allow luxury cabins
  7. Type-9 - Add one new class 8 compartment.

I'll go through my reasoning one by one.

Hauler - Upgrade both class 3 compartments to class 4.

The Hauler is not all that much cheaper than an Adder, and the Adder outdoes it in almost everyway: more cargo space, far more weapons, better shields and even with the recent doubling of hull strength for the Hauler, the Adder still wins out because of it's hardness of 35 which significantly reduces damage from small weapons.

Note that with this change the Hauler will still come with class 2 cargo racks in these slots by default, and upgrading both of them to class 4 would cost 60k, more than the ship itself. So it won't be immediately unbalanced as a cheap trading vessel, as outfitting it to use this extra space will cost significant funds for the new player. Also, an E-rated Hauler laden with two class 4 cargo racks has a jump range of 5LY, and a D-rated laden 32T capacity Hauler doesn't even get 7LY, so the frame shift drive will need an upgrade to make it practical.

So the point of this change isn't to make the Hauler better off the shelf, but to extend it's life. Between the Hauler and the type-6, there are no pure trading vessels, and indeed most traders will dump the Hauler as soon as they get an Adder, which is a very short lifespan. At least this change potentially keeps a Hauler as an option all the way though to the Cobra.

Adding exploration slots

This is just adding specialised exploration slots to some ships that probably need some love. I don't think these changes are unbalancing, as it doesn't increase these ships combat potential, but it just makes say the Diamondback Explorer useful for I don't know... exploring maybe? Passenger ships also would be expected to go into the void and need a scanner, it's not surprising if they had a dedicated slot for this.

Type-7 - Add fighter capability.

Particularly for those who haven't got military rank, there's a big gap between the Keelback and the Type-9 for fighter capable ships. The Type-7 is probably an appropriate ship for filling this gap. It requires a large pad, which suggests it's got the space for a fighter bay. Also making the Type-7 fighter capable is not going to make it overpowered because otherwise offensively it is quite poor.

FDL - Allow luxury cabins.

I know the FDL isn't a dedicated passenger ship, but it has got some class, and I don't think allowing the FDL to use it's one class 5 compartment for a luxury cabin will make it an overpowered ship, considering the lack of space it has otherwise. It would just be a nice perk for the ship to have.

Type-9 - Add one new class 8 compartment.

The Type-9 currently only compares marginally to the Anaconda for trading. Once players can afford an Anaconda for trading, the extra speed, jump range etc is probably worth an only small reduction in cargo space. If the Type-9 was only around the 50 mil mark then this would be more reasonable, but at 90 million there's not much life the Type-9 gets.

Adding a class 8 compartment may seem like a lot, but even with it the Type-9 still has less space than the Cutter. The extra cargo will make it even slower and hurt it's jump range even more. But at least it will be the trading ship of choice all the way up to the Cutter, and for those without Imperial rank, perhaps the ship of choice for trading over the Anaconda. The Anaconda has got many uses, a great end game explorer, a top of the line combat ship and a very effective multi-role ship. It doesn't need to be the best trader also.

I don't think this is overpowered because that extra class 8 compartment when utiliised drops the Type 9s speed even further, and it's jump range, even A-rated, is reduced to only a little over 10LY. It will be even more of a lumbering brick than it is now, but at least it will be good at being a lumbering brick. The physical volume of the Type-9 is significantly greater than the Cutter, and also the Cutter has a larger FSD, distributor, power plant, weapons systems, etc extra filling it's internal space, so it make sense that at the very least, the Type-9 should be able to jam in a comparable amount of cargo to the Cutter into what is essentially a large box.
 
I gotta say I really like NO.9 but at the same time it becomes a problem.

- It's a luxury yacht with heavy combat abilities and thus also looses the long range ability due to short jump range and small fuel tank.

How profitable and numerous ARE short range luxury transport missions?

I mean, it really fits the theme of the ship but is it a viable playstyle compared to other passenger vessels.
 
I gotta say I really like NO.9 but at the same time it becomes a problem.

- It's a luxury yacht with heavy combat abilities and thus also looses the long range ability due to short jump range and small fuel tank.

How profitable and numerous ARE short range luxury transport missions?

I mean, it really fits the theme of the ship but is it a viable playstyle compared to other passenger vessels.

Using an FDL as a luxury transport is far from ideal, but that actually means it makes it a good change to make, as it fits with the lore whilst not unbalancing gameplay.
 
Using an FDL as a luxury transport is far from ideal, but that actually means it makes it a good change to make, as it fits with the lore whilst not unbalancing gameplay.

I agree.

Besides, if one DOES use it as a luxury transport then perhaps one does not outfit it with heavy armour and weapons.

A D fitted FDL with some modules for transport, fuel tanks and scoop AND engineering could very well reach 25 LY which is enough.

- - - Updated - - -

You guys know that Saud Kruger builds an Luxury FDL already? :) For the wealthy commanders ofcourse.

But it's not a ship we have access to.

We only have the basic FDL.

Perhaps a toned down FDL should be for sale.

- S5 FSD
- Luxury Cabins
- Less shields
- Less armour
- Exchange H hardpoint for a L
- Add an additional Optional Module
 
A know a few ships have got buffs recently, both directly (like the Keelback and Type 7) and through military slots. But some haven't, and here's a list of changes I'd do to balance things out and give more ships a niche. Of particular focus is cargo ships. Multirole ships are always going to have a purpose, but cargo ships are only going to have one - hauling cargo. For them to be considered they need to be better at that one job than similar ships in their class, otherwise players will quickly see them as obsolete. Any thoughts appreciated, these changes are intended to be moderate, just to give some ships new or extended niches. Anyway, here's the list of changes I'm proposing:

  1. Hauler - Upgrade both class 3 compartments to class 4.
  2. Diamondback+Asp Scout - Add one "exploration slot", can be only used for scanners.
  3. Diamondback+Asp Explorer - Add two exploration slots.
  4. Orca+Beluga - Add one exploration slot.
  5. Type-7 - Add fighter capability.
  6. FDL - Allow luxury cabins
  7. Type-9 - Add one new class 8 compartment.

I'll go through my reasoning one by one.


Hauler - Upgrade both class 3 compartments to class 4.

The Hauler is not all that much cheaper than an Adder, and the Adder outdoes it in almost everyway: more cargo space, far more weapons, better shields and even with the recent doubling of hull strength for the Hauler, the Adder still wins out because of it's hardness of 35 which significantly reduces damage from small weapons.

Note that with this change the Hauler will still come with class 2 cargo racks in these slots by default, and upgrading both of them to class 4 would cost 60k, more than the ship itself. So it won't be immediately unbalanced as a cheap trading vessel, as outfitting it to use this extra space will cost significant funds for the new player. Also, an E-rated Hauler laden with two class 4 cargo racks has a jump range of 5LY, and a D-rated laden 32T capacity Hauler doesn't even get 7LY, so the frame shift drive will need an upgrade to make it practical.

So the point of this change isn't to make the Hauler better off the shelf, but to extend it's life. Between the Hauler and the type-6, there are no pure trading vessels, and indeed most traders will dump the Hauler as soon as they get an Adder, which is a very short lifespan. At least this change potentially keeps a Hauler as an option all the way though to the Cobra.

I think that is too much, maybe change 1 class 3 to a class 4 and it will be fine.

Adding exploration slots

This is just adding specialised exploration slots to some ships that probably need some love. I don't think these changes are unbalancing, as it doesn't increase these ships combat potential, but it just makes say the Diamondback Explorer useful for I don't know... exploring maybe? Passenger ships also would be expected to go into the void and need a scanner, it's not surprising if they had a dedicated slot for this.

Diamondback scout is fine as is, it is not meant for long range exploration. The Diamondback Explorer and the Asp Explorer should both get 1xSize 1 exploration slot for scanners. Nothing more is needed for the DBX explorer.

Type-7 - Add fighter capability.

Particularly for those who haven't got military rank, there's a big gap between the Keelback and the Type-9 for fighter capable ships. The Type-7 is probably an appropriate ship for filling this gap. It requires a large pad, which suggests it's got the space for a fighter bay. Also making the Type-7 fighter capable is not going to make it overpowered because otherwise offensively it is quite poor.

I agree that more ships are needed, and the Type 7 would be a good fit as well as other new ships as well.

FDL - Allow luxury cabins.

I know the FDL isn't a dedicated passenger ship, but it has got some class, and I don't think allowing the FDL to use it's one class 5 compartment for a luxury cabin will make it an overpowered ship, considering the lack of space it has otherwise. It would just be a nice perk for the ship to have.

I think the Dolphin will be here is 2.3 which will be the small dedicated passenger ship. No need for a FDL luxary passenger ship. The lore says it is a Luxury combat ships for the wealthy bounty hunter/pirate. I.e it has luxury accomodation for the pilot. Not the passengers.

Type-9 - Add one new class 8 compartment.

The Type-9 currently only compares marginally to the Anaconda for trading. Once players can afford an Anaconda for trading, the extra speed, jump range etc is probably worth an only small reduction in cargo space. If the Type-9 was only around the 50 mil mark then this would be more reasonable, but at 90 million there's not much life the Type-9 gets.

Adding a class 8 compartment may seem like a lot, but even with it the Type-9 still has less space than the Cutter. The extra cargo will make it even slower and hurt it's jump range even more. But at least it will be the trading ship of choice all the way up to the Cutter, and for those without Imperial rank, perhaps the ship of choice for trading over the Anaconda. The Anaconda has got many uses, a great end game explorer, a top of the line combat ship and a very effective multi-role ship. It doesn't need to be the best trader also.

I don't think this is overpowered because that extra class 8 compartment when utiliised drops the Type 9s speed even further, and it's jump range, even A-rated, is reduced to only a little over 10LY. It will be even more of a lumbering brick than it is now, but at least it will be good at being a lumbering brick. The physical volume of the Type-9 is significantly greater than the Cutter, and also the Cutter has a larger FSD, distributor, power plant, weapons systems, etc extra filling it's internal space, so it make sense that at the very least, the Type-9 should be able to jam in a comparable amount of cargo to the Cutter into what is essentially a large box.

Not against this, but I am not bothered about the bigger ships so don't really have much of a comment.

All in all not bad ideas, they just need to be reigned in a bit.
 
But it's not a ship we have access to.

We only have the basic FDL.

Perhaps a toned down FDL should be for sale.

- S5 FSD
- Luxury Cabins
- Less shields
- Less armour
- Exchange H hardpoint for a L
- Add an additional Optional Module

Sounds good, pray to holy Braben 6x/day and we might have some fortune....
 
I think that is too much, maybe change 1 class 3 to a class 4 and it will be fine.

I thought about this, but doing this only makes it's maximum cargo space only 4 tons greater than the Adder, with numerous disadvantages, like only having 4 slots instead of 5 (more smaller slots are generally more flexible), and also having shocking offensive capabilities compared to the Adder. For this change to be useful, the Hauler needs a significant advantage over the Adder in terms of cargo space, which is why I think both slots need an upgrade.



Diamondback scout is fine as is, it is not meant for long range exploration. The Diamondback Explorer and the Asp Explorer should both get 1xSize 1 exploration slot for scanners. Nothing more is needed for the DBX explorer.

The Diamondback Scout is extremely tight on space, and didn't get any of the military slots that the Eagles and Vipers got recently. Giving it an exploration slot just helps a little, and as it's a downsided version of the Diamondback _Explorer_ it makes sense that it has an exploration slot.

The Diamondback Explorer desperately needs to two exploration slots, not just one. That will only give it 7 slots, which is still very tight once you add a fuel scoop, vehicle hanger, repair unit and shield. If it can't be fully outfitted as an explorer then why call it the Diamondback Explorer?!
 
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The Diamondback Explorer desperately needs to two exploration slots, not just one. That will only give it 7 slots, which is still very tight once you add a fuel scoop, vehicle hanger, repair unit and shield. If it can't be fully outfitted as an explorer then why call it the Diamondback Explorer?!

I agree, but the DBE only needs 1 more slot (even as an "exploration" slot) to be useful; at the moment it just doesn't have enough - bare minimum would be shield, fuel scoop, SRV, AFMU or cargo, DSS, ADS - which is 6 and it only has 5. Seven slots and you're in Asp territory... (more would be better but that's not how this game works...)

The Cobra III, DBS, hauler and adder could do with an exploration slot too btw! ;)
 
I agree, but the DBE only needs 1 more slot (even as an "exploration" slot) to be useful; at the moment it just doesn't have enough - bare minimum would be shield, fuel scoop, SRV, AFMU or cargo, DSS, ADS - which is 6 and it only has 5. Seven slots and you're in Asp territory... (more would be better but that's not how this game works...)

The Cobra III, DBS, hauler and adder could do with an exploration slot too btw! ;)

And cargo racks, to pick up any weird alien items you find out there. That's 7.

And you're not in Asp territory, because the Asp gets two more exploration slots to give it 9.

Yes, it makes it the Diamondback EXPLORER a good explorer, but I don't think it's going to displace the Asp Explorer, which like I said, has 2 additional slots, and a better jump range.

It also makes no difference to the combat capability of these ships, so I don't think we have to be so stingy on the exploration slots. They're nothing compared to the military slots which other ships have got, which are a much bigger buff.
 
And cargo racks, to pick up any weird alien items you find out there. That's 7.
...

I was going to say I've never needed a cargo rack while out exploring, but then I remembered turning up at the alien ruins at the weekend with no cargo rack... you're right it needs two exploration slots. :)
 
I thought about this, but doing this only makes it's maximum cargo space only 4 tons greater than the Adder, with numerous disadvantages, like only having 4 slots instead of 5 (more smaller slots are generally more flexible), and also having shocking offensive capabilities compared to the Adder. For this change to be useful, the Hauler needs a significant advantage over the Adder in terms of cargo space, which is why I think both slots need an upgrade.

I don't think so. The Adder is virtually twice the price and should be better in every department. I used the Hauler as a stepping stone to the Adder.



The Diamondback Scout is extremely tight on space, and didn't get any of the military slots that the Eagles and Vipers got recently. Giving it an exploration slot just helps a little, and as it's a downsided version of the Diamondback _Explorer_ it makes sense that it has an exploration slot.

The Diamondback Explorer desperately needs to two exploration slots, not just one. That will only give it 7 slots, which is still very tight once you add a fuel scoop, vehicle hanger, repair unit and shield. If it can't be fully outfitted as an explorer then why call it the Diamondback Explorer?!

Again I disagree about the DBS, it isn't an exploration vessel, it is a scout vessel which it does very well at, like the Asp Scout. Infact if anything needs a buff it is the Asp Scout as far as I am concerned the DBS is better then the AspS. And the DBS is still a better combat ship then the Viper even with it's extra combat slot.

The Diamondback explorer needs 1 slot. You can still take cargo, you just have to miss out on an AMFU. Which I have done plenty of times in my DBX. It just isn't ideal. Your choice, cargo or AMFU. That is fine for me.
 
I don't think so. The Adder is virtually twice the price and should be better in every department. I used the Hauler as a stepping stone to the Adder.

But even with the changes I propose, the Hauler is only better than the Adder at cargo hauling at a price point well above the Adder's base price. It's not like the Hauler is going to make the Adder obsolete, but you admit yourself that the Adder makes the Hauler obsolete. I think that's to quick the Hauler needs a longer lifespan.

Again I disagree about the DBS, it isn't an exploration vessel, it is a scout vessel which it does very well at, like the Asp Scout. Infact if anything needs a buff it is the Asp Scout as far as I am concerned the DBS is better then the AspS. And the DBS is still a better combat ship then the Viper even with it's extra combat slot.

The Diamondback explorer needs 1 slot. You can still take cargo, you just have to miss out on an AMFU. Which I have done plenty of times in my DBX. It just isn't ideal. Your choice, cargo or AMFU. That is fine for me.

I just find it a bit silly that the Diamondback EXPLORER is matched in exploration by the Cobra pretty much. Can't explorers have just a little bit of love?
 
The trade ships definitely still need some changes, including the hauler, for just the reasons outlined by the OP. It should be able to get to ~32tons with a shield (not necessarily a good one, mind). The Cobra becomes the first alternative then, and it's 4mil to fully kit out, or about a mil to fit out to something usable to start with from an upgraded hauler. You would use the adder if you hadn't decided what you wanted to do yet, so chose multi-role. The Hauler then becomes the only rational choice for trader who are starting out.

Indeed the idea should be to make all the trade-only ships the only rational choice for trading (and fighters should be the irrational choice for trading).

Putting more and smaller compartments in multi-role makes them more flexible, putting fewer but bigger compartments makes the tradeship hold more but be a lot less flexible. So a lot of changes ought to be to make those big boxy traders have few slots,meaning if you want to use them to explore, you're going to have to critically short your loadout.

The Type7 is as heavy as the Anaconda and, given the flatter shape of the Anaconda, has pretty much the same internal space. So make it lighter, by say 70 tons, and give it a higher capacity, close to the Anaconda, but in five large compartments, one of which would be a suitable shield slot, one maxing out or another for minimum usable. A 7 locked to cargo, two 6, two 5 and a 2.

Type6 to Type7 is a big gap. Upping the Type6 another 16-32t max load (by making cargo only somewhere) and dropping the weight by 5-15t should plug that, unfortunately opening up a larger gap from hauler to T6. Again, about 5 internal slots so that anything other than trade is a waste of potential space.

Type9 is as heavy as the Corvette and Anaconda put together (near enough), and has nearly twice the useful internal volume that the Anaconda has. Its weight means it needs a heavier and more expensive shield and FSD to be usable. Maybe make it hold 800-1000 cargo (again make some cargo only, drop the hull mass by 200-400t and allow a bigger FSD, but only put in the current size one, to carry full load you should have to upgrade. So here, because of a flight bay, either 6 slots and 800 cargo or 5 slots and 1000.

That then leaves about 1200-1500t for the python clipper if it can dock in a slot, and it would be within the space of a large landing pad. That it isn't the 2100t from the earlier games could be a redesign to allow it to land on planetary surfaces, requiring a dropping of cargo hold for rigidity and stronger ventral thrusters.

I would hope that the Beluga will be able to host a sidewinder-class dock (though using this would likely be a good thing for multi-crew). Bring in the Krait as a larger sidewinder class ship (maybe more fighter than the sidewinder multirole), and an unarmed shuttle for passenger ferries to dock there and you're good to go.

On the shuttle, maybe have the standard one, like a minibus, and the Empire version more like a stretch limo with built in and unremovable Luxury passenger cabins for 1 or 2 passengers. If they count as sidewinder class again, they can be used with the Beluga. They can otherwise be used as cheap taxies for collecting your ships.

IMO, FDL should be allowed to have a luxury cabin. It does nerf the uniqueness of the Orca and Beluga, but these both have that huge glass dome where there doesn't seem to be any place for passenger holds. So I suggest they are resturaunt/bars, dancehall and observation domes, hence their ability to hold luxury accommodation. But even the plebs can be charged for drinks and a meal looking at the stars, so these two craft gain a 10-25% (maybe more for the Beluga than Orca, but within that range) bonus to passenger payouts.

Flying a Beluga or Orca could gain you some on-spec missions to carry passengers (and if there is the "stretch limo" shuttle as a player ship, in that one too), making having the cabins a useful thing to keep on.

Unless it's specifically a ferry job and business class, it shouldn't be time limited much. For all other passenger missions, if you take a week longer, they've paid for all-you-can-eat service up front, so they don't care (as long as they're not endangered), but business class would be working on a time-is-money offer. They should be tight schedules and no-pay if you are late or divert. And a good reason to keep one small/mid-size business class cabin on board a multi-role ship.

Yes, went a bit OT, but it arises out of the changes to FDL/B/O.
 
I think part of the problem could be resolved by adding in more traders that are actually top of their respective categories. The traders are actually in a reasonable place goes as far as cost efficiency, however all the traders are at the bottom of their respective categories so the only way to get meaningful trading done once you are better established is to go into the multipurpose vessels, which removes most of the reason for having dedicated trading ships except for helping players out early game.

For example, adding in the "Type-5 Compact" or something similar that maxes out the capacity of a small landing pad and provides greater cargo capacity than the Cobra MkIV would give the small landing pad freighters a much needed boost. Similarly, adding in a medium landing pad freighter with 300ish tonnes of cargo capacity to slightly outstrip the Python's trading potential would help trading at outposts significantly. The top-end trading might be fixed once we see the Panther Clipper in the game though as I'd expect it to provide greater capacity than the iCutter, if not then I'd like to see a T-10 added to provide top of the line space trucking. The issue isn't with the freighters themselves, it's with the gaping holes in their lineup that currently have to be filled with multipurpose vessels.

I don't see the need for the T-7 to get a fighter bay, the whole point of the T-7 is that it is a cheap metal box with an attached FSD for cost efficient hauling. However, getting a militarised variant of it in a similar vein to the Keelback would be good to see.

Exploration slots would be basically pointless until we get more explorer gear in the game. Currently, exploring suffers from a lack of scaling as even little DBXs can mount almost everything they need and extra explorer slots would simply make that problem worse as it would basically remove any possible need to upgrade to a larger exploration vessel. Once we get another half-dozen exploration modules such that it takes an Anaconda to mount all of them, then we can start to worry about dedicated exploration slots for the smaller ships.
 
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