General Need Nerf Fragment Cannon

[Morbad]

I don't agree. Generally it's very simple, until you defeat a jellyfish in space (one on one) I don't accept other arguments.

I'm still not sure what the Thargoid argument has to do with anything. Killing interceptors one on one, no matter how easy or difficult, is not going to make someone better at fighting CMDRs in large ships than fighting CMDRs in large ships, which has been done since long before and after Thargoids.

The issue isn't that from a big ship they shoot frags, the issue is that from a medium to big ship they shoot frags.

Medium ships with frags still have to contend with all those other medium ships and frags are much harder to leverage against opponents with parity in mobility. This is a key balancing factor to frags that you're dismissing. The entire population of PvP pilots isn't suddenly going to focus on hunting the minority of big ships to the exclusion of everything else.

That's what I'm writing about, no one else will fly in the open game on big ships and those who will fly there will be on medium-sized ships with frags.

That's not a likely scenario.

Firstly, some pilots being able to leverage the extra ~20% frag DPS a Python Mk II is capable of (relative to all the other medium combat ships capable of mounting frags) is not going to suddenly make the game dramatically more difficult for large ships than it already was.

Secondly, not everyone is going to be boating frags because frags aren't good at everything. They will see a resurgence in popularity, for a while, as people experiment with the shiny new ship that seems to favor them, but when people adapt to this temporary increase in frag popularity, and realize that frags suck a lot of the time, loadouts will diversify again.

The game has tons of balance problems, but frags barely register. The problem with big ships has always been one of mobility and that problem exists without frags. Mobility is handy enough alone, but it's a huge force multiplier in groups, especially well coordinated ones.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Frags are not unbalanced, even engineering them with incendiary they're still more kinetic type damage.... which is litterally the only one damage facing baseline resistance from both shields and hull.

 

[SergMx]

I'm still not sure what the Thargoid argument has to do with anything. Killing interceptors one on one, no matter how easy or difficult, is not going to make someone better at fighting CMDRs in large ships than fighting CMDRs in large ships, which has been done since long before and after Thargoids.



Medium ships with frags still have to contend with all those other medium ships and frags are much harder to leverage against opponents with parity in mobility. This is a key balancing factor to frags that you're dismissing. The entire population of PvP pilots isn't suddenly going to focus on hunting the minority of big ships to the exclusion of everything else.



That's not a likely scenario.

Firstly, some pilots being able to leverage the extra ~20% frag DPS a Python Mk II is capable of (relative to all the other medium combat ships capable of mounting frags) is not going to suddenly make the game dramatically more difficult for large ships than it already was.

Secondly, not everyone is going to be boating frags because frags aren't good at everything. They will see a resurgence in popularity, for a while, as people experiment with the shiny new ship that seems to favor them, but when people adapt to this temporary increase in frag popularity, and realize that frags suck a lot of the time, loadouts will diversify again.

The game has tons of balance problems, but frags barely register. The problem with big ships has always been one of mobility and that problem exists without frags. Mobility is handy enough alone, but it's a huge force multiplier in groups, especially well coordinated ones.

Fighting Thargoid on a large ship with a speed below 450, requires impeccable knowledge of all the mechanics of his ship, full knowledge of Thargoid's behavior and does not allow even a small mistake.
The Thargoid makes no mistakes, unlike humans.

And medium-sized ships just whiz by like a shuttle past the big one, provided that the big one has time to turn, trying to pour 1.5k damage into it.

I'm sorry, that's all I have to say. You are a very good pilot and time will tell if you are right or wrong.

 

[SergMx]

Frags are not unbalanced, even engineering them with incendiary they're still more kinetic type damage.... which is litterally the only one damage facing baseline resistance from both shields and hull.

Sorry I don't quite understand what kinetics has to do with it if all people are trying to equalize shield and armor resistance. Over 50%.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Sorry I don't quite understand what kinetics has to do with it if all people are trying to equalize shield and armor resistance. Over 50%.

Most of the resistance is coming from stock parts... so in general frags need heavy engineering to be effective.

Also in PvP frag builds are of course quite used because of the alpha damage but these niche builds always come with a compromise.

 

[SergMx]

Most of the resistance is coming from stock parts... so in general frags need heavy engineering to be effective.

Also in PvP frag builds are of course quite used because of the alpha damage but these niche builds always come with a compromise.

That's why they're injected on the flyover. And frags have a lot of effects there that even have corrosion.

Fragment Cannon

Multi-shot projectile weapon. — In-Game Description The Fragment Cannon is a weapon module that fires bursts containing 12 projectiles, similar to a shotgun. While each individual projectile has low damage, it can fire three bursts of 12 quickly in a row. Fragment Cannons are capable of...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

Once again, if someone thinks I'm wrong, it's his opinion and it's hard for me to object, but I created the topic for a reason, and based on a large number of videos from streamers, and the emergence of Python Mk2 worsened the situation. The developers thought they could balance it out with a low spreader.

P.S. Not only can you fire all the cannons on a big ship without thinking about the PD, but you can destroy torpedoes with them.

P.P.S. Personally, I've had 4 Peacekeepers lying around in storage for a long time and the main problem is waiting to get them. So we wait about a month for a jump in frag usage.

P.P.P.S. And there is no need to think that this problem is new, it has been around for a long time, it's just that it will get a bigger splash now because of Python Mk2.
I didn't believe it was P2W after all.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HcQH6TlwaU

 

[SID-420-69]

No, a frag nerf is largely unnecessary. The balance of frag cannons comes from a very low projectile speed and high spread countering the high damage requiring close in shots. Pacifiers lessen the spread but also do less damage than frags, again for balance. If you're getting pulverized in a large class ship by mediums, it's because you're a big slow moving target that can't turn fast enough to keep up with the maneuverable mediums.

 

[Rebel Yell]

...and based on a large number of videos from streamers, and the emergence of Python Mk2 worsened the situation.

Has "improved" the situation, as we have a contender to the God of Plasma!

 

[SergMx]

Has "improved" the situation, as we have a contender to the God of Plasma!

I've flown both, but for some reason my Plasma doesn't lead to those conclusions. Maybe because plasma is quite difficult to hit and you need to know how to control the spreader well.

 

[Adam_Aster]

Fighting Thargoid on a large ship with a speed below 450, requires impeccable knowledge of all the mechanics of his ship, full knowledge of Thargoid's behavior and does not allow even a small mistake.
The Thargoid makes no mistakes, unlike humans.

Fighting a thargoid using a large ship requires little effort compared to a small or medium ship. Just because YOU have issue with it doesn't make it harder. It just makes you someone who does not know anything about the game. Big ships can get away with a lot more mistakes vs thargoids than smaller ships, and they dont even have to move vs the thargoid AT ALL. They can just face tank the thargoid and mow it down. Hell, if they decide to run shields (which they don't even have to and that is fine) they can even do a cheesey reboot and get them back in between the thargoid's phases.

See here: they didnt even use shards they used gauss. they barely have to move. and when they do it's only in a straight line.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFG-662mAUI

I've flown both, but for some reason my Plasma doesn't lead to those conclusions. Maybe because plasma is quite difficult to hit and you need to know how to control the spreader well.

Again, this is another issue with your own skill and flying capability and nothing to do with the game. Get better instead of asking for things to be nerfed (or just stop flying the corvette for everything and expecting it to be able to do everything and be good vs everything simply because its a big ship that costs alot) just because you are having problems vs certain things. The way to counter frags has been explained to you many times in this thread, by multiple people, but you just refuse to hear it, because it is not the kind of answer you are willing to accept (one that puts the task on YOU to improve/adapt yourself/your own flight capabilities instead of just asking for things to be changed to suit your personal sensibilities)

 

[SergMx]

Fighting a thargoid using a large ship requires little effort compared to a small or medium ship. Just because YOU have issue with it doesn't make it harder. It just makes you someone who does not know anything about the game. Big ships can get away with a lot more mistakes vs thargoids than smaller ships, and they dont even have to move vs the thargoid AT ALL. They can just face tank the thargoid and mow it down. Hell, if they decide to run shields (which they don't even have to and that is fine) they can even do a cheesey reboot and get them back in between the thargoid's phases.

See here: they didnt even use shards they used gauss. they barely have to move. and when they do it's only in a straight line.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFG-662mAUI


Again, this is another issue with your own skill and flying capability and nothing to do with the game. Get better instead of asking for things to be nerfed (or just stop flying the corvette for everything and expecting it to be able to do everything and be good vs everything simply because its a big ship that costs alot) just because you are having problems vs certain things. The way to counter frags has been explained to you many times in this thread, by multiple people, but you just refuse to hear it, because it is not the kind of answer you are willing to accept (one that puts the task on YOU to improve/adapt yourself/your own flight capabilities instead of just asking for things to be changed to suit your personal sensibilities)

Sorry, I can't accuse anyone of playing poorly or analyzing poorly, as I have no right to evaluate other people and point out their shortcomings.
There are videos on youtube of Katya fighting against 6-12 interceptors at once. And not only her, show me such a video on a big ship ?
Or at least a video where a good pilot on a big ship beats a good pilot on a PythonMk2 with 4 frags or FDL with 5 frags with a difference in insurance of several millions.

 

[Adam_Aster]

Sorry, I can't accuse anyone of playing poorly or analyzing poorly, as I have no right to evaluate other people and point out their shortcomings.

Well at least you are able to concede to your inability to understand enough about the game to evaluate SOMETHING. I am not pointing to the player at all. The fact it was not required for the player to move as much as they would have in a medium ship is not a shortcoming of the player at all, this is how its optimally done in a big ship, playing to its pre-designed advantages. Moving would be a waste of time in the speedrun. The player simply realizes they do not need to. The video is only there to show the fact that a player has to do way less movement compared to a medium or small ship in order to kill the goid, not that the player in the video is bad, because they aren't bad, this is a top 3 speedrun clip, so quite the opposite.

There are videos on youtube of Katya fighting against 6-12 interceptors at once. And not only her, show me such a video on a big ship ?

It is almost as if different types of ships are good at different things, and this is an intentional game design decision. Almost like big ships have some kind of weakness when it comes to being able to dodge damage, and this was considered from the start, and if one was expecting to fly in a way that avoided damage as their flight style, that big ships are not the ship to use in such situations. As if big ships were made with TAKING large amounts of damage and still being able to survive longer than smaller ones while doing so. What you are asking for is to be able to do medium ship things in a big ship.

 

[SergMx]

Well at least you are able to concede to your inability to understand enough about the game to evaluate SOMETHING.

I never point out people's faults as I have no right to judge them !
Until I see proof that I am right, I will not change my opinion. Evidence that seems logical to me, so far I don't see it except for accusing me personally.

 

[Adam_Aster]

I never point out people's faults as I have no right to judge them !
Until I see proof that I am right, I will not change my opinion. Evidence that seems logical to me, so far I don't see it except for accusing me personally.

Then I guess this thread has run its course, because you are not going to convince anyone who knows a great deal about the game that big ships should be able to have all of the benefits of medium ships and none of the disadvantages of being in a big ship. And no one here with more experience is going to convince you that your issue is one of both skill and unacceptance to step outside of a big ship when confronted with things that are direct counters to said ships, put in game for that exact purpose, as intended.

 

[SergMx]

Then I guess this thread has run its course, because you are not going to convince anyone who knows a great deal about the game that big ships should be able to have all of the benefits of medium ships and none of the disadvantages of being in a big ship. And no one here with more experience is going to convince you that your issue is one of both skill and unacceptance to step outside of a big ship when confronted with things that are direct counters to said ships, put in game for that exact purpose, as intended.

I've been in the game since 2015 and I can't tell anyone who is less experienced than me ! And only I can admit that someone is more experienced than me, and I admit it, but it does not mean that his arguments are accepted immediately and without verification.

 

[Rebel Yell]

I've flown both, but for some reason my Plasma doesn't lead to those conclusions. Maybe because plasma is quite difficult to hit and you need to know how to control the spreader well.

Pacifiers have a higher shot speed, but they're not a ready-meal for everyone... they also depletes faster than PAs when jousting as 3 shots/magazine means 60 bursts, vs the average of 90sh volleys for PAs. Normal frags have a very limited range, and they need to hit a wide portion of the target ship to be effective: i.e. bursts facing a Python (is just an example but this applies to most ships having a slim profile) head to head produces much less damage vs. a burst shot on the flat upper /or lower sides of the ship. If timing is not correct, in terms of range control and hitbox, most part of their DPS is wasted.