General Need Nerf Fragment Cannon

[SergMx]

I remember those times when for the sake of game balance there was a deterioration of the characteristics of weapons and it is right.
For example, they made a percentage of shield enhancement as large ships could not be penetrated from their huge shield.
Strongly reduced the penetration of the cannons, so that now the cannons in general few people use

I was afraid that now no one is watching the balance of ships and weapons in the game, but the release of Python Mk2 calmed me down. Everything is fine.

But what do I see now ? A lot of Fragment Cannon in PvP. Yes I understand they allow you to do a lot of damage without having to squeeze the power spreader. But where's the balance?

The main disadvantage of these cannons in their scatter, which can still be applied to fast small and medium ships, but what about against large clumsy ships ?

Maybe some will say that this is the balance when a medium ship can simply destroy the big one. Yeah, we got torpedoes that take out shields instantly. But I do not understand this one-sided balance, and the insurance cost of a large ship is equal to a medium one? Can a big ship fly away and keep its distance?

I think it's time to do something about Fragment Cannon !

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

Why? Why keep cutters invincible with their 10k shield?
They, and the other big ships can have lots of weapons but that comes with the penalty of being a big target.

 

[SlickPBW]

There’s always a lesson to be learned when someone gets blowdup in pvp. And asking to have the victor’s weapon nerfed is not going anywhere.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Frags are good against big ships and less experienced pilots. The balance is that they struggle against medium and small ships with a capable pilot. Try an all frag build against an elite Viper mk3 in a compromised nav beacon.

 

[Rubbernuke]

 

[SergMx]

Why? Why keep cutters invincible with their 10k shield?
They, and the other big ships can have lots of weapons but that comes with the penalty of being a big target.

First of all, no one will fly in pvp with 10k.
There will be a hole in the damage, again there is a risk of torpedoes, banks can easily shoot down.
It's easy to get hit by plasma with its 60% absolute damage.
And the shield has a very large signature, so sabzha with her scatter does not count, all the monstrous damage at once flies into the large shield of a clumsy ship.

As for weapons. That's the main issue. Corvette
2 small, 2 medium, 1 large and 2 huge. The spreader is 8 and it can shoot better.
Kinda yes PythonMk2 = 2 medium and 4 large, FDL and Mamba
Small PD and it seems to be fine.
But here is the FC just gives them to shoot almost the same power and they have enough distributor ! Is it a balance ?
When the difference in penalty is 5 million vs 35-40. Is that okay?

 

[SergMx]

Frags are good against big ships and less experienced pilots. The balance is that they struggle against medium and small ships with a capable pilot. Try an all frag build against an elite Viper mk3 in a compromised nav beacon.

That's what I'm writing against big ships! I have seen a lot of fights from great pilots, pilot skill does not win here.

Sabz allows you to shoot ALL guns on medium ships, on large ships and due to the fact that they are large they do not care about the spread.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I thought the balance is you have to be very close to deal that damage, and that nimble ships can get out the way.

I could say the same for gimbals and hitscan lasers being OP.

 

[SergMx]

I thought the balance is you have to be very close to deal that damage, and that nimble ships can get out the way.

No balance, same damage ! but the medium ships can deflect and the large one will absorb ALL the damage.

After all, why do many PvP and non-PvP people fly with them?

 

[Rubbernuke]

No balance, same damage ! but the medium ships can deflect and the large one will absorb ALL the damage.

After all, why do many PvP and non-PvP people fly with them?

Then put proper defences on your large ship.

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

First of all, no one will fly in pvp with 10k.

No, you're right, with resistances it's at least 15k against frags + banks/gsrp.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

That's what I'm writing against big ships! I have seen a lot of fights from great pilots, pilot skill does not win here.

Sabz allows you to shoot ALL guns on medium ships, on large ships and due to the fact that they are large they do not care about the spread.

This is why the majority of PvP has always been done with medium ships. Big ship, big target, big turning circle. It's the same as complaining that a small ship doesn't do enough damage.

Your real problem though is speed and distance control. A skilled pilot in a big ship will get dunked on against another skilled pilot in a medium ship because whoever is in the medium is dictating the battle. Same thing as what happens when you fly an FGS.

Nerf frags all you want, you'll just get blown up by something else.

 

[SergMx]

Your real problem though is speed and distance control. A skilled pilot in a big ship will get dunked on against another skilled pilot in a medium ship because whoever is in the medium is dictating the battle. Same thing as what happens when you fly an FGS.

Yeah, I get it.
But the above is right, bigger ships can do more single damage. And that's how the Fragment Cannon
allows medium-sized ships to deal just as much damage! Translation

If they don't want to listen to me I won't take offense, after all it's just a suggestion, it's just that eventually in the open game you won't meet any big ships and all medium ships will fly only with Fragment Cannon.

You have a Clipper in your signature, in the game is also Courier, not everyone understands that good protection in the game gives not a large shield and thick armor and speed and maneuverability !
And this applies to any fight, even with Thargoids.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Really though, since the topic appears to be as much about PvP Corvettes I'd be asking @Morbad for how to deal with this kind of stuff.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

LOL, nice. Maybe this will move some of the meta away from big ships if it catches on.

 

[SergMx]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGfWZ1DWuFs

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgZg4KoKRNM


There are a lot of videos like this. You can even show such fights on FDL.

 

[alexzk]

In reality big things never fight alone. They have plenty of small supporters around.
What really could help here, big ships should be able to launch AI controlled swarms of the fighters / drones. Like thargoids do. That would be fun.

 

[Adam_Aster]

First of all, no one will fly in pvp with 10k.

Tell me you don't know anything about PvP builds and big ship builds without saying it directly.

 

[Morbad]

First of all, no one will fly in pvp with 10k.

Most PvP-focused big ships are frontloaded as heavily as possible with shielding.

There will be a hole in the damage, again there is a risk of torpedoes, banks can easily shoot down.

Which is not at all a deterrent to frontloading shields because this can happen either way, and the difference in hull isn't that big either way, and doesn't really matter all that much either way. There are exceptions where every last ounce of shielding is achived with GSRs, but due to them only providing a flat increase, their relative utility is more limited on bigger ships. Regardless, the big ships have have so many internals that making the hull strong enough to survive to high-wake if one is hit with enough torpedoes to knock out the shield gen is not hard even if one has several GSRs.

Frags becoming more common might make large ship pilots consider more balanced resistances, as it will actually help against all those incendiary frags, rather than mostly worrying about plasma.

Small PD and it seems to be fine.
But here is the FC just gives them to shoot almost the same power and they have enough distributor ! Is it a balance ?
When the difference in penalty is 5 million vs 35-40. Is that okay?

The class 6 PP and PD mean the Python Mk II cannot easily boat plasma; hence the frag setups.

And yeah, this is fine because you still have to screw up, badly, to not be able to escape from even comically overwhelming firepower in a Corvette. The best recourse against some opponents is to leave...and optionally come back with a ship more suited to fighting them. It's not like a frag Mk II doesn't have weaknesses of it's own.

Simply being more expensive doesn't mean something should automatically prevail...

Your real problem though is speed and distance control. A skilled pilot in a big ship will get dunked on against another skilled pilot in a medium ship because whoever is in the medium is dictating the battle. Same thing as what happens when you fly an FGS.

Pretty easy to win against most mediums in a 1v1 when in a 'vette, or even an Anaconda, as those large vessels are still nimble enough to put guns on target often enough to dish out enough damage to win a battle of attrition. The medium can easily dictate range, but it cannot reliably keep out of the larger ship's cone of fire if the pilot is any good. Only if the smaller ship has significantly longer range weapons is it likely to come out on top alone.

There was nothing particularly wrong with this or this FDL's orbiting or range control (though Asdon's, in the older video, was better), but virtually no medium vessel, generally not even Vultures, can orbit fast enough and tight enough for a Corvette to not be able to point at them often enough to put major hurt on them.

In wing engagements the situation is frequently reversed. Large ships are often sitting ducks, even against equal numbers of mediums. As a rule, they will get focused down one at a time by faster ships that can engage and disengage at will, and will not get any sort of reprieve in which to pop off SCBs. Being passive-reactive can work when one is tougher and has bigger guns, but doesn't do well against any coordinated attack from multiple independent sources.

Cutters can actually be out-orbited by fast mediums and will eventually lose that battle of attrition, if they are silly enough to stick around, by virtue of having problems putting their nose on target.

 

[SergMx]

...

Yes I understand YOU and your video too, even though they are 3 and 5 years old. You can say that nothing has changed in that time ....

Pilots are different, they fly differently, a lot of factors. I don't know if I can convince you, but the easiest way to prove it is to fight a Medusa or a Hydra. I realize that you will say that this is not the right fight and so on, but it is not. Yes the fight is different but it just shows the ability of the ships.

In the end, everybody's right. Why agonize and improve your combat and balance weapons. Just do not fly on large ships in open mode and take FDL, Python2 (even Mamba) with frags and that's it.

Eventually you can put Frags on big ships and it will allow you to give more pips in the shield. Go for it.

P.S. Although the best thing to do is buy a Python for 33k ARXs, improve all the modules (they're specifically worth class A there) and if you happen to get killed, the re-purchase price will be so small that it won't even be noticeable.