New Planet Tech is KILLER of Exploration (all terrain is tiling/repeating/not procedural/random)

And you one of those that are not? Look at Unreal Engine 5. Do you know how old UE? 23 years old. Core is the same from 1998, just updated parts like rendering engine, physics, lighting, shaders, etc. Also Cobra is highly modular engine.
Unreal Engine 5 has been updated to use DX 12, so still beating Cobra stuck on DX 11
Dont remember, seen in some dev stream, Braben stream I think. He said how easy is to change some parts there wtihout rewriting everything. And that this engine is ready for everything that planned - procgen cities, legs, earth-like planets, etc.
I remember that, I think he was being... optimistic.
From Dr. Ross:

Q: Will the changes include a multi-source lighting system to reflect the presence of multiple stars in systems that have them?
As we're aiming for similar specs to base game for Odyssey, we won't be including a multi-source lighting system, for performance and art reasons.
QFT (tho' I do wonder what the art reasons are).
Still they did. On stations and from local lights I see multiply shadows. Doing sources and lights is easy, but casting multiply shadows is what gonna tax your system hard.
This is true, so maybe add it in as an option for more powerful PCs.
It doesnt. Planet is already created as you see and its saved on ED servers, not your pc. And what all you see, all planets - its a streaming of planet parameters from ED servers. Even its topography. Yeah, fdevs keeping all this stuff, all milky way, on their servers, not your pc, otherwise it would get thousands of terabytes of data. Can you understand the epicness of this?
Wow, just wow!
Made it less ridiculous? ;)
Mars would like a word with you -
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXpzNNARzGI
(Olympus Mons)
 
Yes, you two should really take a online video course on procedural generation. Everything you describe is not really that hard and quite easy to achieve using relative simple mathematics.

You see problems where there are none.
One example - river beds vs rocky ridges.
What is the difference for the generation? There is exactly none, only the height of the terrain influences that.
Put a layer exactly in the middle between top and bottom and you have water plane that automatically covers every hole or indention deeper than that.
Water is only an achievement because the lightning of translucent things always is a limiting factor with non raytracing engines.
Actually there's quite a big difference between rivers and rocky ridges. Rivers have to flow downhill, and not cross each other's courses for starters. Hollows either shouldn't exist or will have lakes in them (in most cases, there are exceptions). None of this is anything to do with how you render it. Ideally large rivers won't drop in altitude very rapidly (again, there are very notable exceptions). And for ED it has to be possible to generate it on the fly rather than precalculated; I'm not sure that the ones I've seen do that; you need something that can produce ever-better resolution as you get closer as you need it (a la how Perlin noise does for random mountains).

Here's an example I found for anyone interested: https://www.redblobgames.com/x/1723-procedural-river-growing/
I've not read through it closely to see if it'll do the necessary live generation at any scale.
 
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Yeah. You either turned away from the star to avoid the dramatic lighting or landed in the shadow.

You also picked landing sites that were deserts. It's pretty important now where you land on a planet and how it looks like will differ a lot depending on where you set down. You know, like in reality.
Funny enough, it looks pretty good for shadowed ice desert shots. :D

So sure, I can make boring shots on every single planet in Horizons and Odyssey. That's totally possible.

I posted these before, but here I go again. this is the WORST I was able to get in Odyssey on a random rocky planet. Worst, flattest location in direct sunlight. No shadows no nothing:
View attachment 235485

Then I turned about 90° and there was a crack in the ground:
View attachment 235486

Then I flew to a volcanic region, still in total sunlight, and tried to line up a good shot. Still the same planet:
View attachment 235487

And then I turned around to capture the parent planet on this planet:
View attachment 235488

That's one really boring rock that happen to has volcanism and a lovely parent planet in direct sunlight from worst to best, while still not relying on shadows.

I am sure it's not too hard to find a planet that's still more boring to either make a point about Odyssey, but that would be nonsense, right?

EDIT:
Technically that's not even a planet, but a moon.
That's just the thing though. The impressive views in Horizons presented themselves by chance.

You've directly admitted you are having to put in effort to find places which look good.
I made no such effort. I just landed to see what it looked like. And that's what it looked like for miles around.

Most of the galaxy isn't going to be in perfect lighting all the time and I don't want to have to restrict myself to only landing on the terminators of planets to get good views. I think a lot of people who do exploring are more concerned about what planets look like in general and not whether it is possible to find a few places which look decent.

While you say you're "sure it's not too hard to find a planet that's still more boring to either make a point about Odyssey", please do remember that you selected that planet as an example of how good Odyssey looks. All I did was go there.
Maybe it's more realistic to have large sections of a planet be flat and dull but I found(/find) in Horizons it rarely matters where on the planet you land - there'll always be something reasonably cool to see.

If you disregard the lovely lighting effects in Odyssey because I'm only talking about what the planets look like, then these two random shots (just standard resolution captures from accidentally hitting F10) I found in my screenshots folder from a couple of years ago don't look drastically worse - certainly the difference is not big enough to be worth the drops in performance many of us are seeing:
Horizons ship random.jpg
Horizons SRV random.jpg

They're boring un-staged shots but there's a subtle realism to them. The planet surfaces look like they're made of actual physical materials, rather than looking like CGI. They certainly look more convincing than some abomination like this:
minecraft planet.jpg

To my eyes Odyssey terrain is mostly either flat and bland, or has this sort of thing going on when it attempts to do elevated peaks:
My render.jpg

Height maps with textures that are just stretched as required - ugh!

The shot of your SRV next to the small volcanic vent - that volcano thing looks like it has been clumsily photoshopped on top (particularly the edge between the rock and the orange stuff on the ground). It really doesn't integrate well into the rest of the scenery. I don't class that as good-looking scenery but maybe those details are not objectionable to you.

Just to clarify - I'm not talking about finding and taking a nice picture. I'm only talking about what the terrain looks like.

I'm also not saying Horizons looks perfect, but I think it was doing a better job of creating places which felt real and (most importantly) I don't feel that the Odyssey engine is worth the performance hit. Jerky graphics look less realistic than lower resolution textures.
 
That's just the thing though. The impressive views in Horizons presented themselves by chance.

You've directly admitted you are having to put in effort to find places which look good.
I made no such effort. I just landed to see what it looked like. And that's what it looked like for miles around.

Most of the galaxy isn't going to be in perfect lighting all the time and I don't want to have to restrict myself to only landing on the terminators of planets to get good views. I think a lot of people who do exploring are more concerned about what planets look like in general and not whether it is possible to find a few places which look decent.
What's the problem with any of that? Give me the realism any day over impressive anywhere - then impressive anywhere just becomes mundane and dull. The problems aren't that lots are fairly flat, it's the copy-paste features and the lack of even occasionaly really impressive landscapes (no Himalayan mountain ranges or cracks formed as a planet cools of is tidally stressed giving good racing territory). That shouldn't be the norm wherever you drop down - it just gets silly then. But we map planets, so the map is how we should find those features (once they actually exist to be found). Mapping needs to produce maps!

Whatever method you've got you'll always get better views near the terminator. The shadows will always add to any scene.

On your texture issues, the patterns of squares, I've not seen anything quite that bad - either you're on very low settings or something's genuinely completely borked there.
 
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I'm not really an effort type of guy.
Uhm. Present itself. Hm.
I saw loads and loads and loads if incredibly boring planets in Horizons with the lighting of a close-by star or planet being the only cool thing on a picture. And that often was true for the whole planet.
In other cases the whole planet was golden and an awesome sight, but also very similar wherever you go.
And there are those extremely rare cases with extreme features and unique freakishness.

In Odyssey I haven't seen those extreme features yet.
Everything else just works differently. Instead of a whole boring or interesting planet, most planets have both, and often even with different features.
So yes, you have to pick your landing site more carefully now, which I love a lot.

If you're doing landscape photography in real life you won't go to boring places on Earth, but pick those with great views.
If you're a scientist you often don't get to pick, and it's pretty similar in Odyssey (apart from the lack of scientific stuff to do...)
 
How do you think they did their landscapes in Odyssey? By hand, old style? Lol.
Odyssey apparently uses a library of handcrafted terrain height map fragments on top of noise-generated terrain. Horizons did this to some extent, too, but the percentage of noise vs. handcrafted has shifted considerably towards handcrafted, which is why it is now easier to spot repetitions (and it may be the reason why EDO occupies twice the install size of EDH). Not sure why you think this is lol-worthy.
 
Odyssey apparently uses a library of handcrafted terrain height map fragments on top of noise-generated terrain. Horizons did this to some extent, too, but the percentage of noise vs. handcrafted has shifted considerably towards handcrafted, which is why it is now easier to spot repetitions (and it may be the reason why EDO occupies twice the install size of EDH). Not sure why you think this is lol-worthy.
Because he also thinks it is mind blowing that data belonging in a database is stored in a database, and not your client 🤷‍♂️
 
Odyssey apparently uses a library of handcrafted terrain height map fragments on top of noise-generated terrain. Horizons did this to some extent, too, but the percentage of noise vs. handcrafted has shifted considerably towards handcrafted, which is why it is now easier to spot repetitions (and it may be the reason why EDO occupies twice the install size of EDH). Not sure why you think this is lol-worthy.
It might just be the case that it shows more in Odyssey because there is a lot more in general.
Horizons really didn't have a lot of surface features. It did incredibly things with what it had, but it's all kinda the same and there are little distinctive features.
Not meaning terrain shapes, but things to form the terrain of.
I'm not sure about this, but it's my impression.
 
The problem with planets in Ody are the tiny icy and rocky ice Planets/Moons, very small with 0.0x Gravity. Those where my favorite kind of places, and when people talk about great canyons and whatnot, its a safe bet to say it was on one of these. But these places are pretty much lost in Ody, the tiny ones are now all pretty boring and flattend and no amout of posting pictures of pretty planets - bigger, diffrent kind of planets - is changing that.

And yes, there are very pretty planets in Ody, when it comes to bigger ones (bigger relative to the tiny ones, stuff at around 0.1-0.5g) those are I would say an improvment over there horizons counter parts. But as nice as they are and as glad I am we have them, we shouldn't lose the tiny icy ones. Great new planets should be an addition to the greats of Horizons, not a replacment.
 
Right, but it's a missed opportunity not to procedurally generate these settlements for increased variety. After a while everything and everywhere looks exactly the same, regardless if you're 1ly or 500ly away. Not only are they all the same layout, but also the same colors and building material (Metal, brick, glass etc)
Procedureally generated can produces some complete nonsense if you're not careful, and even when it doesn't it ends up pretty much like a plate of spaghetti in almost every case - every one is different but they all look the same anyway. So I can see why they hand-did settlements (and it's probably not that implausible that everything will get standardised to that uninspiring degree, although a few different manufacturers of prefabs having slightly different looks would be good).
 
Lolwhat. Youre totally wrong in these regards. Light in Odyssey is top-notch, rdr2 alike, light in Fallout 4 is very simple, hello to 00s. You can even barely see there any shadow from most objects and light leakage from any wall.
In Odyssey they added a simple shader effect to the sky to simulate light scattering in a tenuous atmosphere. There is zero interaction with the surface, which is why you're getting these weird planets where the sky is a saturated red but the ground is perfectly grey with pitch black shadows and no ambient lighting. Compare this to an incoming radiation storm in Fallout 4 with its volumetric light effects etc. Hello to 00s? Maybe you're confusing things with Fallout 3.

But you don't have to take my word for it, because I have examples to show. All screenshots straight from vanilla Fallout 4, no hi-res texture pack, no mods, no post-processing:

Sunny day with haze. Note the correct shadows both in the foreground and on distant objects. This picture proves you wrong already. But there's more...
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Overcast sky.
eHJwK16.jpg


Radiation storm, volumetric light.
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FX.
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Motion blur.
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Depth of field.
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Fallout 4 is low-poly by today's standards, but unlike Fallout 3 it has aged well because the lighting is still beautiful. Odyssey is shoddy in comparison, actually a step down from Horizons.
 
Fallout 4 is low-poly by today's standards, but unlike Fallout 3 it has aged well because the lighting is still beautiful. Odyssey is shoddy in comparison, actually a step down from Horizons.
This is due to the engine having recieved substantial changes for Skyrim. And then they worked for about a year with an in house skyrim version to make those new lighting effect, and make it 64bits capable.
Eventually, it's still a dated engine, and there are limits on what you can do with it. Everything they added came at a performance cost. While a more modern engine have all that as a base to work with, for almost no cost.

The same is true for every game engine, ED's cobra included.
 
This is due to the engine having recieved substantial changes for Skyrim. And then they worked for about a year with an in house skyrim version to make those new lighting effect, and make it 64bits capable.
Eventually, it's still a dated engine, and there are limits on what you can do with it. Everything they added came at a performance cost. While a more modern engine have all that as a base to work with, for almost no cost.

The same is true for every game engine, ED's cobra included.
So you think Cobra is a modern engine and Gamebryo is dated?

From Frontier's own website:

"Cobra has been carefully planned, developed and evolved since 1988."
 
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