The mega-irony here is the only ship its REAL easy to dock manually is the Sidey!!!
New Player Suggestion
- Thread starter dtdionne
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Manual docking is one of the best things about this game. It's a way of reinforcing the successful completion of a task, whatever that task may be, by manually putting it into a garage and not simply getting within 7.5km of your garage and pressing auto park.
I enjoy the manual manipulation of Elite ships. Sometimes even docking can be pulse raising - especially when you've just entered and found a massive ship on its way out because you weren't watching the sensors and you just scrape by.
The pinpoint precision required to land is one of those skills that you absolutely must hone early on or God help you when you try to land on geological zone 3 of Deciat 1 to gather materials. Most fun I've had in an SRV - like driving a dune buggy over.....dunes? Chasing those mats as they rolled down hills was one of the funniest, most joyful experiences I've had this week and not being able to land will deny you this.
I remember playing US Navy fighters and Falcon 4.0 on PC and one of the most fulfilling tasks on that was slapping the Tomcat down on a moving carrier deck, or scraping your F16 down on a cratered runway. More so than the combat.
A docking computer is like a washing machine. If you've got one, fine. Just load up, press start and go do something.
But if you have to manually wash your clothes in the river you get all the extra fun of potentially falling in or being eaten by crocodiles or getting mugged and having your smalls stolen by scantily clad natives......
And with regard to the age thing? That's wildly off the mark.
I'm 51, with 4 kids and 3 grandkids. It's the more mature that have the patience to do these things properly. Kids these days just want everything served up on a plate as fast as possible with minimal effort, and that's the main stumbling block for games like Elite. Kids just don't get that effort brings its own rewards.
Rant over and apologies to all the kiddies I just offended.
edits for grammar and spelling - its an age thing that kids won't get......
I enjoy the manual manipulation of Elite ships. Sometimes even docking can be pulse raising - especially when you've just entered and found a massive ship on its way out because you weren't watching the sensors and you just scrape by.
The pinpoint precision required to land is one of those skills that you absolutely must hone early on or God help you when you try to land on geological zone 3 of Deciat 1 to gather materials. Most fun I've had in an SRV - like driving a dune buggy over.....dunes? Chasing those mats as they rolled down hills was one of the funniest, most joyful experiences I've had this week and not being able to land will deny you this.
I remember playing US Navy fighters and Falcon 4.0 on PC and one of the most fulfilling tasks on that was slapping the Tomcat down on a moving carrier deck, or scraping your F16 down on a cratered runway. More so than the combat.
A docking computer is like a washing machine. If you've got one, fine. Just load up, press start and go do something.
But if you have to manually wash your clothes in the river you get all the extra fun of potentially falling in or being eaten by crocodiles or getting mugged and having your smalls stolen by scantily clad natives......
And with regard to the age thing? That's wildly off the mark.
I'm 51, with 4 kids and 3 grandkids. It's the more mature that have the patience to do these things properly. Kids these days just want everything served up on a plate as fast as possible with minimal effort, and that's the main stumbling block for games like Elite. Kids just don't get that effort brings its own rewards.
Rant over and apologies to all the kiddies I just offended.
edits for grammar and spelling - its an age thing that kids won't get......
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Where I do agree is that the game has a steep learning curve. It's perfectly fine for the dedicated player, but the more casual player and people randomly stumbling into the have a hard time.
Where I disagree is that the docking computer would be the solution. It's just a crutch. Even if it was there, people would not know how to activate it. You have to request docking (in by itself a huge barrier for the beginner who refuses to do tutorials) and then slow down and let the computer take over. Which again is something you have to know to do. If you are impatient enough to skip tutorials, you probably also don't slow down enough.
What the game really needs is more fundamental: a more thorough new player introduction. And it should, just like in other games, be disguised as gameplay. No tutorial and training submenu, but rather making each and every new commander do a few pre-defined missions which provide all the information needed.
Mind you, providing all necessary information at the right time is hard. Especially if you don't want to just blindly drop on the player (bad design) but want to provide it at the right time, when he needs it. (Which is much better design, but also much harder to do. ) So yes, the game should hold the new players hands for the first hour or two. Perhaps even watch and in case of need provide information much later. (E.g. an assistant which you have to disable from the options, but can only be disabled once some criteria are met, be it just time played or some other achievements. )
Of course, that's much more work than just adding a docking computer to every ship. But it would also be much more valuable for the game than a free docking computer.
Where I disagree is that the docking computer would be the solution. It's just a crutch. Even if it was there, people would not know how to activate it. You have to request docking (in by itself a huge barrier for the beginner who refuses to do tutorials) and then slow down and let the computer take over. Which again is something you have to know to do. If you are impatient enough to skip tutorials, you probably also don't slow down enough.
What the game really needs is more fundamental: a more thorough new player introduction. And it should, just like in other games, be disguised as gameplay. No tutorial and training submenu, but rather making each and every new commander do a few pre-defined missions which provide all the information needed.
Mind you, providing all necessary information at the right time is hard. Especially if you don't want to just blindly drop on the player (bad design) but want to provide it at the right time, when he needs it. (Which is much better design, but also much harder to do. ) So yes, the game should hold the new players hands for the first hour or two. Perhaps even watch and in case of need provide information much later. (E.g. an assistant which you have to disable from the options, but can only be disabled once some criteria are met, be it just time played or some other achievements. )
Of course, that's much more work than just adding a docking computer to every ship. But it would also be much more valuable for the game than a free docking computer.
I'd like to see a scripted AI led simple delivery mission that talks you through launching, a supercruise jump, station approach, requesting docking and then landing.
Even in Open World games the player should be able to log in and play and all tutorials should be "in game" and optional. It's something the community could probably knock out in a week or so.
Even in Open World games the player should be able to log in and play and all tutorials should be "in game" and optional. It's something the community could probably knock out in a week or so.
I have to say that I love the docking procedure. I love the tension when I approach a heavy G planet in my fully laden Imperial Cutter. I once bounced of the surface like a rubber ball
and survived with 15% hull, or something like that.I have never used a DC and I never intend to do so.
Manual docking is great in my book. I wish there was more of this type of ship handling in the game.
I would like to have more agency in super cruise for example.
First off, to everyone that’s taken the time to even glance at this thread, thank you so much.
Reading the response, all of which are great, I do think I’ve struggled communicating my core sentiment, and that’s my fault.
My one and only concern is the continued success of this game. It’s simple, the more money it continues to make, the more likely they will continue to invest in it.
I loved Destiny 1, Destiny 2 has been a heart breaker. A few weeks ago I threw in the towel and came back to ED to find a bunch of cool new stuff...but no one was on. I thought it was just a glitch, it wasn’t. Anyway, this is what started me down this path.
So I started comparing trophies, when I found someone with ED, I msgd then which lead to a chat party. 99% of my PSN friends I met playing Destiny 1, which means I prolly ran a raid with them. Anyway I asked why they didn’t play elite, and most of them didn’t know what I was talking about. Then I’d say Elite Dangerous, still most were like “what?”. Then i’d say “Elite Dangerous, the space simulation game you paid 60 bucks for” and this is how almost every conversation went after that...
So considering all the varying opinions expressed in this thread, I would just encourage Frontier to consider the possibility that they could be letting considerable revenue slip through their fingers because of this.
A game this epic and initially intimidating, imho, should do everything it can to position customers to succeed...it’s in all of ours best interest.
And simply adding a docking computer to the starter ship is just about as effortless as it gets.
Blowing up in one of the first training missions makes a vast majority of people feel lame and stupid...when what they should be feeling is encouraged.
Reading the response, all of which are great, I do think I’ve struggled communicating my core sentiment, and that’s my fault.
My one and only concern is the continued success of this game. It’s simple, the more money it continues to make, the more likely they will continue to invest in it.
I loved Destiny 1, Destiny 2 has been a heart breaker. A few weeks ago I threw in the towel and came back to ED to find a bunch of cool new stuff...but no one was on. I thought it was just a glitch, it wasn’t. Anyway, this is what started me down this path.
So I started comparing trophies, when I found someone with ED, I msgd then which lead to a chat party. 99% of my PSN friends I met playing Destiny 1, which means I prolly ran a raid with them. Anyway I asked why they didn’t play elite, and most of them didn’t know what I was talking about. Then I’d say Elite Dangerous, still most were like “what?”. Then i’d say “Elite Dangerous, the space simulation game you paid 60 bucks for” and this is how almost every conversation went after that...
- Them: “OOHHH YEAH, it looked great, Idk, I just didn’t like it”
- Me: “didn’t like it how, cause it really is a great game”
- Them: “it was too complicated/irritating”
- Me: “how far into it did u get”
- Them: “I can’t remember, it was so long ago”
- Me: “did you get through the tutorials?”
- Them: “ummm...idk man I can’t remember”
- Me: “one of the first tutorials was kinda tricky, where you had to dock with a station”
- Them: “OHHHHHHH YYYYEEEAAAHHH! THAT GAME!”
So considering all the varying opinions expressed in this thread, I would just encourage Frontier to consider the possibility that they could be letting considerable revenue slip through their fingers because of this.
A game this epic and initially intimidating, imho, should do everything it can to position customers to succeed...it’s in all of ours best interest.
And simply adding a docking computer to the starter ship is just about as effortless as it gets.
Blowing up in one of the first training missions makes a vast majority of people feel lame and stupid...when what they should be feeling is encouraged.
If they moved the docking practice from the Challenge Scenarios to the main Training Missions menu then that would be a lot better, i.e. not having to do the travelling that is required in the "Docking and Travel Training" one in the Training Missions.
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If people are leaving / not playing over something as easy and simple as docking.. I doubt they'd be around long enough to buy cosmetics.
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I know that feeling... been on both ends on this one!
This is just proof that people have regressed in recent times. If they thought docking was hard in this game they should've tried it in the 84 version.
I have no doubt that i would be playing this game with my father and brother if they hadn’t had such a deflating, disheartening initial experience. Along with many others on my friends list.
And it’s also about the biggest bang for the buck. If spending 45 seconds of a single developers time to add a docking computer to the starter ship, and 5 hrs of revised voice over work to overhaul the docking tutorial to include the computer could boost revenue by 10,000%, thats just GOOD BUSINESS.
Of the devs time, I personally would FAR prefer they spend ALL of it expanding the game, lore and cool new stuff and ships...NOT totally revamping the tutorials.
If I were them, I’d invest the 5hrs and 30sec adding a docking computer to the starter ship and see if that helped. If it does nothing, very little is lost...but if it does, they could get a lot, for very little.
And it’s also about the biggest bang for the buck. If spending 45 seconds of a single developers time to add a docking computer to the starter ship, and 5 hrs of revised voice over work to overhaul the docking tutorial to include the computer could boost revenue by 10,000%, thats just GOOD BUSINESS.
Of the devs time, I personally would FAR prefer they spend ALL of it expanding the game, lore and cool new stuff and ships...NOT totally revamping the tutorials.
If I were them, I’d invest the 5hrs and 30sec adding a docking computer to the starter ship and see if that helped. If it does nothing, very little is lost...but if it does, they could get a lot, for very little.
I think the OP makes a good point (supported by decent anecdotal evidence) about docking being a major hurdle for new players.
However I'm not convinced the fitment of a docking computer is the right answer (another nail in the coffin type feelings). In the original game the docking computer was notoriously bad (both in 1984 Elite and 2014 ED), something that cannot really be said about the current version of ED where it is fast and convenient.
So while I do think people should learn to manually dock early in the game what I really think there should be is a solid incentive to dock manually (ie it's faster, possibly safer). A docking computer fee of 500Cr could potentially provide an obvious incentive for the new player learn to dock manually. The OP's proposal would make more sense then imo.
I'm not strongly against the OP's proposal.
However I'm not convinced the fitment of a docking computer is the right answer (another nail in the coffin type feelings). In the original game the docking computer was notoriously bad (both in 1984 Elite and 2014 ED), something that cannot really be said about the current version of ED where it is fast and convenient.
So while I do think people should learn to manually dock early in the game what I really think there should be is a solid incentive to dock manually (ie it's faster, possibly safer). A docking computer fee of 500Cr could potentially provide an obvious incentive for the new player learn to dock manually. The OP's proposal would make more sense then imo.
I'm not strongly against the OP's proposal.
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I believe the flight experience has been dumbed down enough.
Being able to handle spacecraft like they are first world war dogfighters is a big enough simulation sacrifice. I highly recommend Jack Campbell's 'The Lost Fleet' series for an idea of how combat in space would most likely take place, if you want to understand the sacrifices to simulation already made for the sake of gameplay for yourself.
To me, what you are saying is that if your friends started playing a flight sim, then they would want automated landing like airliners have built in, ignoring the fact that no pilot would qualify to fly airliners without being able to manually land a plane without the automation. And lets face it, the nuts and bolts of Elite are flight sim based.
You can work your way up to a docking computer - just like an airline pilot trainee would work his way up to being allowed to use the auto land systems. If being unwilling to land a plane in a flight sim - doing that in Elite is way, way, way easier than nailing trap wire 1 on the tiny, pitching deck of an aircraft carrier doing 35kts in an F-14 Tomcat doing 150kts at night in US Navy Fighters with all the dynamics involved in that scenario - is why people won't give ED a chance then they will get no satisfaction from this game anyway. There are much harder things to do in Elite than land on a docking pad. All giving them a docking computer would do is slightly delay their departure to games that more suit their requirement for pampering.
Becoming Elite at anything - in real life or online - should always be challenging. That's why the name Elite for this game is very, very appropriate.
My suggestion to keep (mostly) everybody happy would be to have the docking computer available as a purchase from the start at all stations, so you can choose whether to use it or not, but force players to learn to manually dock by having 'some' stations deny docking permission when the pilot tries using automation. And have it use a size 2 bay. And have it pulling 3MW of juice even in standby.
;-)
Being able to handle spacecraft like they are first world war dogfighters is a big enough simulation sacrifice. I highly recommend Jack Campbell's 'The Lost Fleet' series for an idea of how combat in space would most likely take place, if you want to understand the sacrifices to simulation already made for the sake of gameplay for yourself.
To me, what you are saying is that if your friends started playing a flight sim, then they would want automated landing like airliners have built in, ignoring the fact that no pilot would qualify to fly airliners without being able to manually land a plane without the automation. And lets face it, the nuts and bolts of Elite are flight sim based.
You can work your way up to a docking computer - just like an airline pilot trainee would work his way up to being allowed to use the auto land systems. If being unwilling to land a plane in a flight sim - doing that in Elite is way, way, way easier than nailing trap wire 1 on the tiny, pitching deck of an aircraft carrier doing 35kts in an F-14 Tomcat doing 150kts at night in US Navy Fighters with all the dynamics involved in that scenario - is why people won't give ED a chance then they will get no satisfaction from this game anyway. There are much harder things to do in Elite than land on a docking pad. All giving them a docking computer would do is slightly delay their departure to games that more suit their requirement for pampering.
Becoming Elite at anything - in real life or online - should always be challenging. That's why the name Elite for this game is very, very appropriate.
My suggestion to keep (mostly) everybody happy would be to have the docking computer available as a purchase from the start at all stations, so you can choose whether to use it or not, but force players to learn to manually dock by having 'some' stations deny docking permission when the pilot tries using automation. And have it use a size 2 bay. And have it pulling 3MW of juice even in standby.
;-)
Wash67, they’ll never be anything if they get discouraged and quit immediately as soooo many have. And your missing my entire point, but that’s ok.
Now Riverside...YYYYEEEESSSSSSS!!!! Another excellent idea that I hadn’t even considered. Making docking faster and safer, I love that idea.
I’ve always felt that our ships should have the ability to externally match station rotation. I think I might have even suggested grades of docking computer assistance. With the current puter being the A rated version, and have it incorporate, selectively, the other grades features. Sometimes I’d just like a little assistance, say match rotation.
But to again announce the sole intent of this conversation...dramatically increase the player base by drastically improving the first 15 min of a new customers experience.
I believe that once a person learns how to “ride the 6” and understands why it works, they are no longer at risk of abandoning this great game on a fundamentally flawed perception of its difficulty.
But until about around that point, I think the game should be as stacked in their favor as cost effectively as possible.
The bigger the player base, the better the game will be and the longer it will run...and that’s what I want to see happen.
Now Riverside...YYYYEEEESSSSSSS!!!! Another excellent idea that I hadn’t even considered. Making docking faster and safer, I love that idea.
I’ve always felt that our ships should have the ability to externally match station rotation. I think I might have even suggested grades of docking computer assistance. With the current puter being the A rated version, and have it incorporate, selectively, the other grades features. Sometimes I’d just like a little assistance, say match rotation.
But to again announce the sole intent of this conversation...dramatically increase the player base by drastically improving the first 15 min of a new customers experience.
I believe that once a person learns how to “ride the 6” and understands why it works, they are no longer at risk of abandoning this great game on a fundamentally flawed perception of its difficulty.
But until about around that point, I think the game should be as stacked in their favor as cost effectively as possible.
The bigger the player base, the better the game will be and the longer it will run...and that’s what I want to see happen.
And to elaborate, wash, a flight sim with auto landing couldn’t be further from my point. Landing a jumbo jet is arguable THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF A FLIGHT SIM...or at least a gigantic portion of it.
ED is not a space ship docking simulator. Don’t believe me, if it were, 90% of all ED YouTube videos would be about docking.
ED is not a space ship docking simulator. Don’t believe me, if it were, 90% of all ED YouTube videos would be about docking.
And losing even 1 customer inside the first 15 min, for any reason, is utterly tragic.
And to not only lose, but also leave them feeling unnecessarily angry and defeated almost guarantees that they will bad mouth the game openly....that’s wholly unacceptable, especially if it can be easily remedied.
And to not only lose, but also leave them feeling unnecessarily angry and defeated almost guarantees that they will bad mouth the game openly....that’s wholly unacceptable, especially if it can be easily remedied.
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