New ship: Panther Clipper

[Rubbernuke]

Yep, and that's fine. But let's go back to the Type-7 – should Frontier allow it to continue to exist in the game as-is, knowing that a player with endless money has no reason to fly it over an 8, 9, Cutter or Panther? Or do we have to buff the Type-7 to be competitive with them? I've no idea how we'd even begin to do that, even.

In general I think buffing underperforming ships is good, but for the Type-X ships it really does feel like they're just supposed to be stepping stones and that has to be okay. As long as they actually work as stepping stones, as in they're the highest capacity hauler at their cost. And they are, still: the order technically goes Sidewinder, Eagle, Hauler, Adder, Cobra 3, Cobra 4, Type-6, Asp Explorer, Federal Dropship, Type-7, Type-8, Type-9, and then Cutter.

They all need buffs but I'd much prefer FD make something of other metrics. For example reverting the T-7 to its pre-nerfed state.

In the end I think its too late for the ship order though- SCO has seen to that and that you unlike in 2015 where you had to work to get something now you can do a few missions and get the best.

 

[Doctor Dread]

I'd only agree to 2K for the PCMk2 if it has some downsides because thats a huge amount of capacity.

Then we have a deal

 

[Rubbernuke]

Then we have a deal

Excellent.

Now we pray to Brabus really hard.

 

[Morbad]

And at some point it becomes silly having them keep finding more unused space inside the same ship model.

We won't be there for a very long time with the larger ships.

A T-9 is almost 160k cubic meters. A canister is about 1.5 cubic meters. Even if we assume very generous allotments for everything, the ship will reach maximum thruster mass long before it runs out of empty space.

 

[Elyssaen]

For example reverting the T-7 to its pre-nerfed state.

The Type-7 was nerfed? When did that happen, and how?!

We won't be there for a very long time with the larger ships.

A T-9 is almost 160k cubic meters. A canister is about 1.5 cubic meters. Even if we assume very generous allotments for everything, the ship will reach maximum thruster mass long before it runs out of empty space.

Oh, I don't mean silly in that sense. I mean silly in universe that they released the ship with a massive amount of free space and then every few years are going "oh, huh, we found a bit of a space we weren't using..."

There's obviously a huge problem with scaling that we're just meant to handwave. The Anaconda, judged on its internals relative to the Sidewinder, should be about the size of an Asp Explorer.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The Type-7 was nerfed? When did that happen, and how?!

Its (IIRC) been nerfed twice- it has a hardpoint thats been deactivated and also for a short while it had its jump range extended.

FD Giveth and Taketh Away - The T7 Nerf

I for one liked the T7 buff in the 3.0 beta. Awesome to have a fast long range dedicated trader with some real cargo capacity - not everyone can or wants a to buy a 'Conda (meh). I was disappointed it got nerfed without even getting out of the starting gate. It's now back to being an...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Morbad]

Oh, I don't mean silly in that sense. I mean silly in universe that they released the ship with a massive amount of free space and then every few years are going "oh, huh, we found a bit of a space we weren't using..."

I always figured this was just a retcon.

Doesn't make it less silly, but Frontier doesn't care about being silly.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Money stopped being anything important years ago, sadly- along with repair / fuel costs etc.

You haven't really articulated why those things would improve my enjoyment of the game, to be fair. Or why we should make an already punishing new player experience, even more so. What's the upside here?

 

[Sublime]

At the core, elite's problem (one of the less niche ones) is that the gameplay is the same no matter what ship you progress to. Higher end ships and modules don't open up the ability to do harder or even just different gameplay (with a minor exception to some combat).

Trade, exploration, exobiology, mining...these are singular game loops that have no scale or tiers and combat is barely better. So different gear can only reward players by reducing the amount a player needs to participate in the game loop in question for a given reward. Think about how self destructive that is. What it says about what the developers think about their own game. The only reward these player progressions (ships/modules) provide is needing to participate in the game mechanic less. That's not good.

Better gear should do more than that. It should enable successful (at least more successful) activities that were out of reach with lesser gear. So you reward them with different game loops rather than just the prospect of doing less of the same.

That is indeed the mentality with the design in this game. Purposely create terrible gameplay and the player’s only reward of a avoiding or reducing the terrible gameplay.

It was even that way with the previous power play. Buying PP commodities at low rank meant having to buy a few a time so you had to sit there clicking a hundred times to fill up a cargo hold. Get higher rank and you can buy more at a time so you have less clicks. Terrible gameplay.

It’s also their mentality that “less fun” activities pay more because doing things that are more fun is itself the reward so you shouldn’t expect to be paid more for it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You haven't really articulated why those things would improve my enjoyment of the game, to be fair. Or why we should make an already punishing new player experience, even more so. What's the upside here?

Without constraints and scarcity you essentially kill any reason to do crime, piracy or be involved in black markets. Constraints also allow for some ships to have advantages over others beyond faster / carry more / jump further. We have thirty odd ships now, and most of them are esentially useless because the useful metrics are so narrowly defined.

By stripping away such considerations (and not developing them either) you make the game increasingly superficial. Money has no meaning, so it can't drive the game like it should. This has broken ship aquisition, rares (which are now just keys for engineers or PP 2 weapons), piracy, crime (as mentioned before). Take engineering- now, when was the last time you bought a C class module, or engineered an E class one because you lacked money? The answer is never, because everyone buys the best instantly and upgrades to the best. So in the end, whats the point of engineering?

I can't speak for you, but when I played ED in 2014 / 2015 I relished that I had to make hard choices and really think about the bottom line. FD have now flipped that on its head, mainly for people who are impatient but also down to them not developing the core of the game in good time (i.e. actually flying / running the ship / upgrading the ship). We now have players who own every ship twice over (filled with A rated G5 modules), own several FCs over multiple accounts, build multiple stations... and yet many of them moan 'whats the point to it?' while wanting a Firefly like story about having a beaten up ship.

 

[Kallipar]

Without constraints and scarcity you essentially kill any reason to do crime, piracy or be involved in black markets. Constraints also allow for some ships to have advantages over others beyond faster / carry more / jump further. We have thirty odd ships now, and most of them are esentially useless because the useful metrics are so narrowly defined.

By stripping away such considerations (and not developing them either) you make the game increasingly superficial. Money has no meaning, so it can't drive the game like it should. This has broken ship aquisition, rares (which are now just keys for engineers or PP 2 weapons), piracy, crime (as mentioned before). Take engineering- now, when was the last time you bought a C class module, or engineered an E class one because you lacked money? The answer is never, because everyone buys the best instantly and upgrades to the best. So in the end, whats the point of engineering?

I can't speak for you, but when I played ED in 2014 / 2015 I relished that I had to make hard choices and really think about the bottom line. FD have now flipped that on its head, mainly for people who are impatient but also down to them not developing the core of the game in good time (i.e. actually flying / running the ship / upgrading the ship). We now have players who own every ship twice over (filled with A rated G5 modules), own several FCs over multiple accounts, build multiple stations... and yet many of them moan 'whats the point to it?' while wanting a Firefly like story about having a beaten up ship.

In regards to engineering and ship types I fundamentally disagree.
Legacy ships have been overlooked by the player base in line whichever meta is promoted by the less inclined player base.
You mention use case scenarios, however you miss, for lack of knowledge? The use of E rated shield boosters that give 75% of an A rated booster for 1 tonne weight! For small ships that can increase a ship performance whilst maintaining HP, which is more important than resistance at low levels.

There are some ships that do not have a proper in game use yet, like the Dropship/Assault/Gunship fed range.

Many of the main weapons are on the underside. However you can get the idea that in a further extension that the ability to attack ground bases in forthcoming groundbase sphere of combat? would be useful.

I have used an Assault ship like an attack helicopter with its single large roof mounted weapon point to disable the defences. As well as the gunship as a mine layer or area deniability ship.

There are many examples of similar things in game. But tbh most people would never bother.

Arf asked me at the last ECM 'Did the increase in mats helped me as an in game engineer' My answer of a qualified No surprised him. Its because the majority only have a limited view of what can be done, or even the advantages of some lesser ships.

Could they do more yes, could designs, other than the meta work yes. Is engineering useful YES. Corsair I love the fact its a tank on rails with exactly the features of A rating everything lol.

 

[Rubbernuke]

In regards to engineering and ship types I fundamentally disagree.
Legacy ships have been overlooked by the player base in line whichever meta is promoted by the less inclined player base.
You mention use case scenarios, however you miss, for lack of knowledge? The use of E rated shield boosters that give 75% of an A rated booster for 1 tonne weight! For small ships that can increase a ship performance whilst maintaining HP, which is more important than resistance at low levels.

There are some ships that do not have a proper in game use yet, like the Dropship/Assault/Gunship fed range.

Many of the main weapons are on the underside. However you can get the idea that in a further extension that the ability to attack ground bases in forthcoming groundbase sphere of combat? would be useful.

I have used an Assault ship like an attack helicopter with its single large roof mounted weapon point to disable the defences. As well as the gunship as a mine layer or area deniability ship.

There are many examples of similar things in game. But tbh most people would never bother.

Arf asked me at the last ECM 'Did the increase in mats helped me as an in game engineer' My answer of a qualified No surprised him. Its because the majority only have a limited view of what can be done, or even the advantages of some lesser ships.

Could they do more yes, could designs, other than the meta work yes. Is engineering useful YES. Corsair I love the fact its a tank on rails

I'm speaking more broadly here- engineering should be a way for someone who is credit poor to approximate / lash up something that is almost as good as 'the real thing'. Thats an excellent use of engineering for a game if it was subject to scarcity would justify the time spent in that system. Of course there are edge cases but for the most part its maxxing out rather than compensating. When was the last time when you bought a new ship did you keep the stock modules because you could not afford any more?

Imagine if engineers as they are now was in ED at the start when scarcity was very real? It would have opened up a parallel path to players for upgrades and really made a difference. You could be broke but come across floating junk to make your ship good enough to survive early CZs better, or jump further when fuel scoops were not in game.

I have used an Assault ship like an attack helicopter

Call me a purist, but when I would attack Horizons bases for BGS work I......simply pointed my ship down.

If FD develop new uses for old ships I'd be very happy. But as it stands in a game as old as ED its out with the old as the new brings in the cash....

 

[SergMx]

All velocity limits in a vacuum that are dictated by something other than running out of propellant are arbitrary, but the relationship between mass and speed limit are definitely math based in Elite: Dangerous.

Unfortunately, this is not true, its maximum empty speed is 600, we load it, load it, and it still remains at 600. Is this mathematics?

Mass lock has always been entirely arbitrary, for all ships.

just pure magic.

 

[Doctor Dread]

Unfortunately, this is not true, its maximum empty speed is 600, we load it, load it, and it still remains at 600. Is this mathematics?

just pure magic.

Yes it is.
Mass of the space ship (for your comment, empty or fully loaded) influence the acceleration time to max speed, not the max speed itself.

not pure magic but pure physics

 

[Rubbernuke]

I suppose its too early (since we don't have in game model shots yet) but has anyone spotted hardpoint hatches?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Mid life you could argue materials were the new currency, but thats now blunted becuase PP2 gives them away like AOL CDs in the 90s.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The scary part is some reading that will be like "WTH is an AOL"?

I recently saw a youngling gen alpha tadpole inspect a floppy disk and they said "you 3D printed a save icon".

 

[Kallipar]

I'm speaking more broadly here- engineering should be a way for someone who is credit poor to approximate / lash up something that is almost as good as 'the real thing'. Thats an excellent use of engineering for a game if it was subject to scarcity would justify the time spent in that system. Of course there are edge cases but for the most part its maxxing out rather than compensating. When was the last time when you bought a new ship did you keep the stock modules because you could not afford any more?

Imagine if engineers as they are now was in ED at the start when scarcity was very real? It would have opened up a parallel path to players for upgrades and really made a difference. You could be broke but come across floating junk to make your ship good enough to survive early CZs better, or jump further when fuel scoops were not in game.


Call me a purist, but when I would attack Horizons bases for BGS work I......simply pointed my ship down.

If FD develop new uses for old ships I'd be very happy. But as it stands in a game as old as ED its out with the old as the new brings in the cash....

I have spoken to Arf for a short while at both the last 2 ECM's. Not in any detail and no secret squirrel stuff, but they are looking at legacy items. So maybe you will become happier. It is quite clear even from the future introduction of the Panther Clipper that they are looking at all the ships and weapons .

In regards to credits/ vs stock ships, thankfully that ship sailed a long time ago. We are lucky that we have a complex game that has survived and changing for the better, albeit slowly.

As for keeping stock items, that's what stellar versions are about. Cynical mode on/off.

The use scenario of the Assault ship. Hugging the ground and popping up like an Apache, is fun. If you want to do 'work' then whatever is easier.

 

[MPL3D]

I suppose its too early (since we don't have in game model shots yet) but has anyone spotted hardpoint hatches?

Inspected up to down left to right, found 1 single small at front right

 

[Rubbernuke]

I have spoken to Arf for a short while at both the last 2 ECM's. Not in any detail and no secret squirrel stuff, but they are looking at legacy items. So maybe you will become happier. It is quite clear even from the future introduction of the Panther Clipper that they are looking at all the ships and weapons .

In regards to credits/ vs stock ships, thankfully that ship sailed a long time ago. We are lucky that we have a complex game that has survived and changing for the better, albeit slowly.

As for keeping stock items, that's what stellar versions are about. Cynical mode on/off.

The use scenario of the Assault ship. Hugging the ground and popping up like an Apache, is fun. If you want to do 'work' then whatever is easier.

Lets hope so, although I look at the state of crime, C+P etc and wonder if FD really have the chops to do what needs to be done.

We are lucky that we have a complex game

IMO its not though. Engineering is simply time gating the 'best' with quite narrow metas- its why I pray to Brabus this legacy polish is done with care so that we actually get useful variety and not more novelty hobby modules. Adversity should breed creativity facilitiated by options provided in the game, and not be seen as a detriment. We have a massive and impressive BGS that could drive all of it, and yet, its all the same. In an ealrier post I mention repairs- you could make generic ships more attractive by limiting where Fed / Imp ships can be serviced, which would make Imp / Fed territory more important to have and also be a useful PP perk for powers like Denton who rival LYR. Your T-9 truck could be repaired anywhere while the Cutter can only be repaired where the Empire exists- but then you could leverage engineering effects to make sturdy / double braced modules less bendy and thus you can go longer without performance degrading.

This is how you make a complex game, by meshing lots of little aspects that build more varied and logical outcomes. Or, you could slap on a prismatic, G5 your Cutter engines and get servicing at Sol. Ships like the Panther could have so many more metrics beyond its massive tummy, but thats all it will be measured by sadly.