No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[Skizomeuh]

No. It is Frontier who 'made things worse' by the way they did things. The reaction was wholly predictable to anyone with a cursory understanding of human beings but their only plan to deal with it was 'add insult to injury'.

An assumption based upon nearly no information on what was/is/will be going on in FDEV office. Same assumption can be made on the other side when looking through a keyhole: how can one be sure there's total honesty behind a claim or rage.

Who knows? Would FD even reconsider reviewing the initial blanket refund refusals without those people who screamed loudly? I am all for keeping things civil but that reaction was easy to predict, those are basic human emotions...

That, it's true I admit. You have to be vocal to get heard. Now, how you get vocal can hurt your message.

 

[Deyn]

Funny to see the arguments still moving around "Solo online" is the solution, the Galaxy is shared in real time etc.

For all people that think this is the solution, it might come as a shock, but actually it is the root cause of the problem!

Please read about how Solo online worked for me yesterday (and consider, that preparing an update in a stable and well scaling Cloud environment could and should not affect players in any way. If you can move complete Windows Terminal Server sessions, application servers, and databases around, while updating the backend it shouldn't be to hard to do the same with a "solo online" session that requires minimum bandwidth, and only once in a while need to connect to the server, right?

So if yesterday is an example of how "online only" impacts solo play in the future, I would like Frontier to take immediate action to get their Cloud provider to fix performance, scalability and get failover sorted, before the 16th of Dec.

If what I had yesterday is what people are to expect in December or when the first patches / updates get released this current storm about dropping offline could be heated up again.

I heard some rumours of Frontier expecting customer count to rise from some 150,000 curently to up-to 500,000 !

Other companies told their customers, they need not fear Online Only, they have everything prepared for launch, the servers are ready, blablabla... we know what happened!

I sincerely hope they at least find a way to fix the mission problem (I'll check in 3.9 later today).

If people have earned their first credits and get kicked from the server, struggle to get back only, to get a fine that alone ruins their effort, and then find out that they have stolen cargo (consider newcomers are not familiar with all the fines and bounty system), and get an addtional 5,000 to 10,000Cr fine...?!

They might voice some thoughts about how an Offline Galaxy without these problems might be a better solution?

I don't know if only I have these troubles, or if others are so used to it, or have so much credits by now, that it doesn't hurt.

For me it was again, very frustrating and yet the best argument why Solo online is NOT a replacement for true offline... may offline be as reduced and empty as Elite was, it would at least not mean a server problem can spoil your game everytime!

 

[T@F]

tbh i going to try and get a refund on my unlimited expansion,as i prob wont get one for the game.
Will it really be a unlimited expansion? As there word means nothing to me now.
They also have lost money from me in the future,as i would have bought a lot of skins and maybe other stuff from there store not now.
I'll just stick with elite and that's it.

Shame tbh as i still would have bought skins and stuff even for offline mode.
They could have even done it,so the skins you buy show up on npc's in offline as well.

 

[MajorEpeen]

I guess the question is, are you sure you are missing anything by being offline for 4 weeks?
What curve are you falling behind if you only play Solo Online?

Prices change, sure... other missions crop up, certainly... but I am not sure that there is a curve to fall behind so to speak. Exploration? Maybe, but there is soooo much unexplored space i am not sure even that holds true.

I feel for those who genuinely have issues, but I think those worried about curves and other players affecting their play in an Online Solo mode might want to adopt a wait and see approach?!

I agree here. The only competition will be in the field of exploration. However there will be so much space and so few explorers in comparison that there will be more than enough for everyone by a country mile. Some seem to think that this is a competition or a race of sorts but that is simply not the case. A Sidewinder can still take down an Anaconda last time I checked due to the game being skill based.

Also the matter of trade lanes. They get replenished over time. So you can still easily find profitable trade routes (as there will be tens of thousands of them). You could probably even still find profitable lanes in the core systems but you will obviously do better by moving out a bit from the core systems.

 

[heillon]

That, it's true I admit. You have to be vocal to get heard. Now, how you get vocal can hurt your message.

I agree. Vocal but civil should be the way.

 

[ykza5]

Another good thing about offline mode would have been to be certain of wipes lol

 

[mbpoblet]

Problem here is that the more strident off-liners would be happy with the result of Frontier caving in, and diverting resources into making the off-line version, or releasing the server code. That would hurt the long term plans of the company. It would make planetary landings, avatar play and all that less likely to succeed, but if all one cares about is having an off-line Elite 4, then those conciderations do not matter.

As one of the most strident "off-liners", I don't have any intention to hurt Frontier.

Certainly nothing I could do could ever come any close to hurting them as much as they have hurt and continue to hurt themselves, no matter how much I tried.

As far as resources go, however, those cost money. No offline mode means less sales (we've already seen many backers ask for refunds), and therefore less money (unless Frontier switches to a freemium or subscription model, and even then those would probably quickly kill any interest in the game and reduce the revenue even further).

Frontier claims they intend to keep the servers up by selling cosmetic elements like ship skins; those could have as easily been sold to people playing offline; I find it hard to believe that this model will be sustainable for long, particularly given the loss of that clearly not insignificant sector of potential buyers.

The servers will eventually (and probably sooner rather than later) become economically unsustainable for Frontier, and without an offline mode or third party servers the game will die, and be forgotten.

However you look at it an offline mode would have meant more revenue for Frontier, and more resources for those hypothetical expansions, and a much longer life for the game.

Not only that, but even without Frontier directly supporting modding the community would have found ways to enhance and customize the offline game, thus increasing its appeal, and sales, and lifetime.

It's precisely because I care(d) about the game, that this incomprehensible and unjustifiable decision angers and saddens me so much.

And I doubt I'm alone in feeling this way.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Only thing that can affect Frontier Developments is Frontier Developments. If anything is going to affect company stocks, costumer loyalty, and future of this game will be the way FD handles this. So far a teenager would have had handled it better.

Here is the breakdown on how things were handled;

Quote Originally Posted by Zuikaku View Post

This issue has escalated and FDs are doing everything to ruin their reputation.

phase 1:
-FDs : support us , we are planning multiplayer along with offline experience

phase 2:
-FDs : thanks for the support, multiplayer experience is really cool and exciting

phase 3:
-FDs : game is soon to be released. BTW, we scrapped offline mode but multiplayer experience is really cool and exciting

phase 4:
- offline community: Why? You have promised us offline mode, we have paid for it!
-FDs : offline is not good for you and is not making us happy. It was so "tough" decision for us but we have to cut something out and multiplayer experience is so exciting. Why are you not excited?!
- online community: We got what we wanted, so shut up

phase 5:
- offline community: we feel betrayed and can not enjoy the multiplayer for various reasons. Can we get the explanation and refund
-FDs : we'll pretend nothing is happening
- online community: Take the refund and shut up! You are ruining the game!

phase 6:
- offline community: can we get some answers on refunding and why offline mode was abandoned?
-FDs : It was a tough decision. But details are very secret. What is done is done! anyway, offline mode might work if we want it to work... maybe when servers are not going to be profitable any more. ofcourse, we'll give you a refund. Now, let's talk about new anaconda skins and how exciting multiplayer is!
- online community: lets build a stake and burn the offliners, they want to destroy everything

phase 7:
- offline community: hey, all refund requests have been denied
- FDs: let's pretend we did the right thing...
- online community: see, you like the game, so shut up!

Of course, that is somewhat simplified.

yeah its kinda unfortunate that there are angry mobs on this forum for a long time now, and its sad because these kinds of things can affect Frontier Developments, and maybe affect even the future of the game... :-s

 

[tagos]

Not simplified by that much.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Not simplified by that much.

That or 10,096 pages... your call!

 

[T@F]

Only thing that can affect Frontier Developments is Frontier Developments. If anything is going to affect company stocks, costumer loyalty, and future of this game will be the way FD handles this. So far a teenager would have had handled it better.

Here is the breakdown on how things were handled;

Quote Originally Posted by Zuikaku View Post

This issue has escalated and FDs are doing everything to ruin their reputation.

phase 1:
-FDs : support us , we are planning multiplayer along with offline experience

phase 2:
-FDs : thanks for the support, multiplayer experience is really cool and exciting

phase 3:
-FDs : game is soon to be released. BTW, we scrapped offline mode but multiplayer experience is really cool and exciting

phase 4:
- offline community: Why? You have promised us offline mode, we have paid for it!
-FDs : offline is not good for you and is not making us happy. It was so "tough" decision for us but we have to cut something out and multiplayer experience is so exciting. Why are you not excited?!
- online community: We got what we wanted, so shut up

phase 5:
- offline community: we feel betrayed and can not enjoy the multiplayer for various reasons. Can we get the explanation and refund
-FDs : we'll pretend nothing is happening
- online community: Take the refund and shut up! You are ruining the game!

phase 6:
- offline community: can we get some answers on refunding and why offline mode was abandoned?
-FDs : It was a tough decision. But details are very secret. What is done is done! anyway, offline mode might work if we want it to work... maybe when servers are not going to be profitable any more. ofcourse, we'll give you a refund. Now, let's talk about new anaconda skins and how exciting multiplayer is!
- online community: lets build a stake and burn the offliners, they want to destroy everything

phase 7:
- offline community: hey, all refund requests have been denied
- FDs: let's pretend we did the right thing...
- online community: see, you like the game, so shut up!

Of course, that is somewhat simplified.

The worst part of all this is. it's so true.

 

[Zuikaku]

I think I'm starting to enjoyall of this situation! Actually it's really funny!

Offliners: Will there be offline
FDs: Ofcourse, you can play the game offline if you wish!

--------years have passed in peace and harmony-------------

FDs: look, our team prefer online mode so we scrapped offline. We considering it not being cool!
Offliners: But... but... why?! You have promised!! (add mouning and crying for effect)
Onliners: Offliners are ruining the game! Why do you want to ruin the game for us? They have ruined everything! They wanted to ruin everything from the start!

It is kinda funny So, maybe all of this is just a joke

 

[tagos]

That or 10,096 pages... your call!

True. Handled correctly (as in NOT handled the way it has and is being) this whole thing would have been dead and buried weeks ago with much less fuss.

I don't want a refund as although I primarily wanted solo i don't mind solo online. I just don't like to see companies I support acting with such self-destructive stupidity.

 

[phlOgistOn]

Frontier claims they intend to keep the servers up by selling cosmetic elements like ship skins; those could have as easily been sold to people playing offline; I find it hard to believe that this model will be sustainable for long, particularly given the loss of that clearly not insignificant sector of potential buyers.

Why would offline players buy ship skins? NPCs aren't gonna be impressed!

 

[Zuikaku]

Why would offline players buy ship skins? NPCs aren't gonna be impressed!

I buy skins to impress myself. Damn, my ship is so good and nice looking!

 

[T@F]

Why would offline players buy ship skins? NPCs aren't gonna be impressed!

as well as seeing it on your ship.
you can see them on the npc's rather than the pain default ones in offline mode.
so every skin you buy then npc's can randomly get it.
That would be a good way to get ppl to buy skins if they play offline only.

 

[Deyn]

The world has changed, and it keeps changing. Internet is here to stay, and we are more and more connected.

All so true.

Just one question: Are your home internet components ready for IPv6 (Router/Modem/Switch)? Can they handle a dual stack environment, where first you need to establish if IPv6 is available on ALL intermediate routers, or decide to fall back to IPv4 or may be 4-to-6 tunneling?

Do you know if your provider is ready to accept reverse traffic tunneled through IPv6?

Just a hint, today backbone providers filter ICMP messages to not alert customers to "errors and problems" inside their net. With this as default for ICMPv6 you filter "Packet Too Big" (PTB) messages, which are critical in IPv6 routing as packet fragmentation is not possible in IPv6.
When you have to tunnel an IPv4 connection through IPv6 and only ONE router has a lower MTU than the actual packet size after wrapped in the IPv6 packet/header you need the PTB message to adapt the MTU, if it gets filtered you will never reach the target.

And last but not least, Frontiers E: D Cloud is hopefully prepared for the upcoming changes to the Internet and can compensate all the trouble, when providers migrate their networks, we have temporary downs of whole regions, problems with tunneling, Firewalls processing IPv6 stateful, thus taking forever to pass the packet on... (the lag, oh my god the laaaag!!!) and so on, and so forth.

Well, like you said it is the Internet it is here to stay, and the world changes.

The Internet as we know it, will be taken through a big overhaul during the next years, with all the troubles and pain involved in such a huge undertaking.

Interrupted connections, need to exchange hardware, reconfigure basic components, find the errors popping up, establish working standards and what not.

Unfortunately most people won't care if it is Frontier's fault, or their provider's fault, or the backbone provider's fault or whoever's fault. They would simply see a "server unreachable" message more often and be happy about it...

If I were a company and want to provide an online game I think I would wait until the changes have happenend or have made damn sure I'm prepared to take on the issues, at least the ones I have control over.

 

[mbpoblet]

Why would offline players buy ship skins? NPCs aren't gonna be impressed!

Eh, they look pretty, why not. I'm sure people who play solo are buying them too.

Also, to support Frontier, back when there were still reasons to do that.

True Story: I almost bought a skin (the chrome one) on friday even though I play solo and don't fly a Viper.

But I had Reddit open on another tab (on /r/EliteDangerous), browsed to it for a moment, pressed F5, and saw the no-offline thing blow up (I had read the newsletter, but it hadn't clicked yet).

And now I don't expect I'll ever buy any skins from Frontier.

...

It was a very cool skin, too.

---

you can see them on the npc's rather than the pain default ones in offline mode.
so every skin you buy then npc's can randomly get it.

I didn't know that... that's cool, it adds actual value to the skins besides the reasons I said.

 

[SuBSynk]

Eh, they look pretty, why not. I'm sure people who play solo are buying them too.

Also, to support Frontier, back when there were still reasons to do that.

People will just hack the code and use whatever ship paint job they want to in offline mode...ohh wait

 

[MorkFromOrk]

All so true.

Just one question: Are your home internet components ready for IPv6 (Router/Modem/Switch)? Can they handle a dual stack environment, where first you need to establish if IPv6 is available on ALL intermediate routers, or decide to fall back to IPv4 or may be 4-to-6 tunneling?

Do you know if your provider is ready to accept reverse traffic tunneled through IPv6?

Just a hint, today backbone providers filter ICMP messages to not alert customers to "errors and problems" inside their net. With this as default for ICMPv6 you filter "Packet Too Big" (PTB) messages, which are critical in IPv6 routing as packet fragmentation is not possible in IPv6.
When you have to tunnel an IPv4 connection through IPv6 and only ONE router has a lower MTU than the actual packet size after wrapped in the IPv6 packet/header you need the PTB message to adapt the MTU, if it gets filtered you will never reach the target.

And last but not least, Frontiers E: D Cloud is hopefully prepared for the upcoming changes to the Internet and can compensate all the trouble, when providers migrate their networks, we have temporary downs of whole regions, problems with tunneling, Firewalls processing IPv6 stateful, thus taking forever to pass the packet on... (the lag, oh my god the laaaag!!!) and so on, and so forth.

Well, like you said it is the Internet it is here to stay, and the world changes.

The Internet as we know it, will be taken through a big overhaul during the next years, with all the troubles and pain involved in such a huge undertaking.

Interrupted connections, need to exchange hardware, reconfigure basic components, find the errors popping up, establish working standards and what not.

Unfortunately most people won't care if it is Frontier's fault, or their provider's fault, or the backbone provider's fault or whoever's fault. They would simply see a "server unreachable" message more often and be happy about it...

If I were a company and want to provide an online game I think I would wait until the changes have happenend or have made damn sure I'm prepared to take on the issues, at least the ones I have control over.

Well we've cleared one thing up at least, we know why you aren't running on online games company. I run a software company and what we do works over internal and external networks. Since you have so clearly explained the issues that are coming I've decided to let all of my staff go and wait until everyone has upgraded their networks and all of the problems have been solved. There is obviously no money to be made or any benefit to a service until that point.