No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[foxpur]

WOW, cant believe your all still debating this, refunds will be given to those, who truly cant play, the rest of you, are just jumping on the band wagon, let it lay.

Hehe, well, yes, a very good point.

 

[Ericlas]

Hi everyone, ... This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

As you are the link between the officials and the community, I'd kindly ask you to pass on the following.

What are the reasons / logics behind the current refund policy?
1. Customer preorders the game -> refundable
2. Customer orders the beta access, full game included at release -> not refundable
3. Customer preorders the game, upgrades to beta access -> not refundable

As i can understand the reason behind 1., i fail to understand the reason why in 2. and 3. a PARTIAL refund, (i.e. the amount for the final release), cannot be made. The worth of a beta access has been advertised as 15 pounds through various newsletters.
Could you please enlighten the community?

 

[phlOgistOn]

Sorry for the late replies

Except that there is no way to have a "Physical DRM-free collector's premium boxed edition" reward if the game is now always-on DRM

Always on =/= always on DRM. Whether the processes involved in connecting to the servers construe DRM or not is something that more technically minded people can comment on (a software developer in the earlier thread was pretty much saying that this isn't the case though) - also of course we're hypothesising on a future product that hasn't been released yet.

Only in this case, it is FD weaseling their way out using KS.

People do understand the risks coming with KS. Yet, in this case it is apparent that:

a) Offline was an important part of the project. The KS campaign was stagnant for several weeks. It was eventually successful because FD added offline to the list, which coninced people to pledge.
b) FD didn't even try to implement offline. They dropped it rather light-heartedly without considering (a), and invested all their funding in the oposite direction.

I don't know if the updates to KS rules are retroactive, but it is clear that they address situations similar to this one (emphasis mine):

Source: http://www.screwattack.com/news/kic...-addresses-creators-who-fail-deliver-projects

So even if FD eventually delivered an alternate form of ED, I seriously doubt they were honest along the way.

Offline was NOT mentioned as a KS reward but was commented on outside of that with regards to the kickstarter. Proving that this was a promise as opposed to a 'dream' feature would be worth looking at since it has influenced some backers and it was the devs commenting upon it... if it could be proved it was a promise then it would suggest misrepresentation or mis-selling of a product - but again was the product the game or the beta? (with a free copy of the game thrown in on top) or who knows how that applies to KS rewards - a big question mark there for KS because it's a new concept of 'selling'

I don't believe the KS project was stagnant at any stage judging by the funding history (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/) and deciding whether the funding increases were due to these comments or whether it was due to other influences would be hard to discern (new trailers etc bringing the project to a wider audience at the same time) - KS projects tend to snowball as they reach the final post anyways.

The KS rules seem to explicitly state that projects use the T&Cs that were applicable when their goal was created rather than apply retroactively: "For projects that launched before October 19, 2014, please see our previous Terms of Use."

Without knowing exactly the internal timeline of features and development you can not say whether they were dishonest (and tbh the old KS rules don't seem to mention honesty)

 

[deMangler]

As someone who is not entitiled to a refund, even though my expected game experience was off-line, hopefully with iron-man. I am obviously guttted.
However - I want to say how inspired I am by how excellent this community is and how this highly emotional and contentious situation has developed.
Love this community. All the best going forward.

 

[Theodrid]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

Thanks for posting here Ed, it is appreciated.

Most of us are acutely aware that the Moderators and yourself are in no way to blame for the decision made, and I have to say, the moderators have done a really good job in this thread. I realise as 'Community Manager' this is very much your thing Ed, i.e. the quoted text, but those words may have been better posted from David's or Michael's forum accounts than yours, (irrespective of who wrote them). This is not to disrespect you, and it probably would not have made a huge difference, but just to reinforce the idea that this was a 'hard decision' and that the top brass 'do care'. Also, as with the lateness the decision was communicated to us a post like this may have been served better a day or two ago, (at least), but to be honest, that last point may just be nitpicking a little.

Anyway, as said, thanks for putting your head above the parapet!

 

[Shoklar]

As you are the link between the officials and the community, I'd kindly ask you to pass on the following.

What are the reasons / logics behind the current refund policy?
1. Customer preorders the game -> refundable
2. Customer orders the beta access, full game included at release -> not refundable
3. Customer preorders the game, upgrades to beta access -> not refundable

As i can understand the reason behind 1., i fail to understand the reason why in 2. and 3. a PARTIAL refund, (i.e. the amount for the final release), cannot be made. The worth of a beta access has been advertised as 15 pounds through various newsletters.
Could you please enlighten the community?

Wouldn't this be a job for customer services, rather than an online forum. This can be logged into on the Elite: Dangerous main website. https://store.elitedangerous.com/cancellations-returns/ is also worth reading.

Shok.

 

[Ecks Theory]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

IM happy its been an amazing week for you, for some of us who feel ripped of and taken advantage of, not so much. And your PR spin isnt doing you any favours. PYour reassurances that its wasnt an easy decision doesnt detract from the fact that are more than happy to keep peoples money after selling them an item described as having something that it doesnt.

I could care less that moderators are working 24 hours, if it wasnt for your god awful approach and handling of the issue, or your blanket refusal of justified refunds it wouldnt be necessary for them to be here at all hours of the day.

Oh and this community is FAR from the best. It didnt take long for all your "fans" to start name calling and abusing those of us that want a refund.

Shame on you for trying to whitewash this issue.

 

[mbpoblet]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for posting your feedback and thoughts on the offline matter over the last few days. It's been an amazing week, and I've seen just how passionate people can be about this game (this thread being 'part 2' is a fine example). Sorry we haven't been as vocal on the threads as we should've been - we've been waiting on a collected official word to put in the newsletter to make sure the message is as clear as it can be. All the information in one place is better than putting scattered responses everywhere.

I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.

Also, the moderators have been pulling 24 hour shifts looking through these threads - so a big thanks to them, too! Please give them the respect they deserve... it's important to note that they weren't any part of this decision, and they didn't know about it before we announced it on Friday.

This community is the best, and I'm honoured to be a part of it. Send me an email at elewis@frontier.co.uk, or send me a PM on here if you want a faster response. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Ed

Thank you for your post, sincerely.

Something like this on friday, instead of the newsletter trying to pass the removal of a core feature as something somehow good for the game (!?), would probably have done a lot to mitigate the blow and avoid the resulting backlash and loss of trust.

It still boggles the mind how such an important change could be announced in such a... clumsy... manner.

Let's hope, at least, that we can all learn from the experience.

I've certainly learned from it, even if I don't like what I learned.

(I'm still not buying the excuses, though.)

 

[Gazz]

Funny fact about this Game.....
"Multiplayer is not planned for the first release. We would love to pursue the option when the time is right, but our primary focus for now is on exploring gameplay concepts and building a fun, deep game. We feel that dealing with networking at this stage would distract from that focus. That being said, don't rule out the possibility of a Limit Theory Online in the future!"

Yep. Create a game worth playing, then see about making an online version.

Sounds a lot more sensible than making a game, then switching it to full MMO 1 month prior to release and ignoring all refund requests that you legally can.

Agree Gazz and I will indeed be looking closley at LT closer to release, it looks fine but with the bitter disappointment and disillusionment of the last few days I will be reserving final judgement.

Heh. Can't say I blame you.

The difference here is: unlike with certain other developers, you couldn't even buy / preorder it if you wanted to!
A funny fact that Mrs. Jedermann didn't quote from the same FAQ. =)

When there is a game and when you can get accurate reviews (*for internet values of accurate), then you can form your own opinion and decide.
A wholly different kind of business ethics...

 

[Shoklar]

IM happy its been an amazing week for you, for some of us who feel ripped of and taken advantage of, not so much. And your PR spin isnt doing you any favours. PYour reassurances that its wasnt an easy decision doesnt detract from the fact that are more than happy to keep peoples money after selling them an item described as having something that it doesnt.

I could care less that moderators are working 24 hours, if it wasnt for your god awful approach and handling of the issue, or your blanket refusal of justified refunds it wouldnt be necessary for them to be here at all hours of the day.

Oh and this community is FAR from the best. It didnt take long for all your "fans" to start name calling and abusing those of us that want a refund.

Shame on you for trying to whitewash this issue.

Maybe they can do a single player version with no online mode or expansions/upgrades. I think they did say eventually this could be the case.

Shok.

 

[Qpid Stunt]

Out of interest (and getting the thread hopefully back on track), has any information been disseminated regarding how often you need to be online to get the updates - is it a constant connection or before every gaming session or only needed once a week? How much of a connection is roughly required to keep the galaxy up to date if it is a constant connection?
.
I am asking for two reasons, for myself having to work away a lot without any public internet access the off line mode would have been for my second character so occasional updates would be bearable, the other reason is that one of the guys I work with (whom I sold into E: D) lives in the middle of no where and has very poor internet connection (~3MB/s) so depending upon how often / how much of a connection is needed really determines whether he applies for a refund or not.
.
Is there any indication of FD looking into releasing an offline mode some time in the future?
.
Sorry if these questions have been answered previously but I really don't have time to read through the 500+ pages of discussion

 

[Adept]

So I guess what it comes down to is that we are just renting the game? Isn't that what it means for everyone now?....Technically I mean.

No. It means you have payed for a lifetime pass to a club. The club has an indefinite existence. They can't promise to be around forever. We do things like that all the time. It's a perfectly valid transaction.

 

[Theodrid]

Out of interest (and getting the thread hopefully back on track), has any information been disseminated regarding how often you need to be online to get the updates - is it a constant connection or before every gaming session or only needed once a week? How much of a connection is roughly required to keep the galaxy up to date if it is a constant connection?
.
I am asking for two reasons, for myself having to work away a lot without any public internet access the off line mode would have been for my second character so occasional updates would be bearable, the other reason is that one of the guys I work with (whom I sold into E: D) lives in the middle of no where and has very poor internet connection (~3MB/s) so depending upon how often / how much of a connection is needed really determines whether he applies for a refund or not.
.
Is there any indication of FD looking into releasing an offline mode some time in the future?
.
Sorry if these questions have been answered previously but I really don't have time to read through the 500+ pages of discussion

Every transaction, (station, bulletin board etc) and every transition, (hyperspace/supercruise from normal flight).

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time.

Hi Ed

Thanks for your post.

FD has some responsibility to play in this fiasco but adopting the "hard line" stance on people expecting a refund (but being denied) again is harming your image.

You ran into problems a long time ago but said nothing. In the meantime your PR machine has been working overtime convincing people that have pre-ordered the game to upgraded to Beta - however in doing so they are no longer eligible for a refund once the truth came out.

Quite frankly you can do what you want (with the bounds of the law) - you have my money as I was a KS backer & downloaded the Alpha so there isn't much I can do about that - however remember there is more to ED than Release 1.0.

You need future sales & reinvestment by people plus you need NEW people to keep the game running / developed ... <shrug>

 

[SalsaDMA]

Considering the company appearantly is in such a financial state that they feel they shouldn't honour the requests for refunds added with the rushed release, what gives people hope that their 'needs to be online' game will be up for long?

I keep remembering flagship studios and how they crashed and burned with their game when they tried maintaining an online game without any real revenue to keep it running.

The reason most big publishers didn't bother much with the spacesim genre is because it is considered a niche genre. Even if we ignore the deplorable ethics they have showcased so far towards us 'offliners', how are they going to maintain the game for the 'onliners' without a steady revenue? There are only so many times people will want to buy a 'new skin for their fave ship'. Is it the ads that some people seem to refuse to acknowledge that is going to produce the revenue? Is that even going to be anywhere near what they need to pay for everything a company needs to pay for (given that I don't really hear about any other lines of income for their company).

Honestly, I can't see the game having a long life when they not only anger a portion of their community, but are also shown to not honour their own promises. They come off as unreliable and not worthy of trust, and that's not really what you want to exude when you need a stady incom from people to keep the wheels running.

 

[Ericlas]

Wouldn't this be a job for customer services, rather than an online forum. This can be logged into on the Elite: Dangerous main website. https://store.elitedangerous.com/cancellations-returns/ is also worth reading.

Shok.

You have a point there Shok. Firstly i have to say i do not want a refund. But i see this topic and the questions all over the forum. And to be honest, i don't think Customer service will write anything more than the standars email. That's why i pointed Ed at it, to FORWARD it on behalf of the interested players. Maybe they already noticed, maybe they don't care, maybe it's clear to them and they think it will be clear to everybody else.

 

[jabokai]

No. It means you have payed for a lifetime pass to a club. The club has an indefinite existence. They can't promise to be around forever. We do things like that all the time. It's a perfectly valid transaction.

Yeah, when you know that from the start! People thought they were buying a shed they could put in their garden and keep!

 

[cathalferris]

I bought into the kickstarter for a copy of the completed game, purely as it came with the promise of a completely DRM-free offline component. As it appears now, it has DRM in the guise of requiring always-on connection to the company's servers. It's an unacceptable bait and switch, and constitutes fraud.

When my card is charged on delivery, I'll be performing a chargeback, as the product I had agreed to pay for will not be as described, we're well covered under the Irish Sale of Goods Act.

A pity, as I was really looking forwards to this game as it had been sold to me.

I dislike MMO games as I have a life outside being online with other hobbies, and the fact that my progression curve in MMO games is always a lot shallower than the average means that my enjoyment is much less than it would be with pure single-player scenarios that I can progress through at my own pace.

I was sold the idea of a new and updated Elite that had an online component. I would certainly not have backed Elite:MMO in the slightest.

 

[mbpoblet]

Out of interest (and getting the thread hopefully back on track), has any information been disseminated regarding how often you need to be online to get the updates - is it a constant connection or before every gaming session or only needed once a week? How much of a connection is roughly required to keep the galaxy up to date if it is a constant connection?

It's the current solo online mode, so constant (but arguably low bandwidth) connection, sorry.

Is there any indication of FD looking into releasing an offline mode some time in the future?

From the last newsletter:

It is not out of the question we will create a cut-down game that is offline only, but this is not currently in our plan. It would still be a big undertaking to do well.

And:

We will review the decision after release, but our priority is moving the game forwards for the great majority of players, and are wary of producing a sub-standard game.

But also:

It is a creative decision, not wanting to produce an empty game. It is technically possible, but it would be a largely separate game development.

And:

Any offline experience would be fundamentally empty. We could write a separate mission system to allow a limited series of fixed missions, but that would still not be a compelling game, and is just the first step in the mountain of work that would be required.

So don't count on it. It's not their (very shortsighted, in my opinion) "VISION™".

 

[Zuikaku]

Hi everyone,


I can only apologise for the frustration that all of this has caused. David's said it best himself before - it was a hard decision to make, and not one that was made lightly. Unfortunately, it was the right decision to make - this is the Elite for 2014, and dropping offline was the only way to make the best version of the game.

I agree, we should've mentioned this to everybody sooner, but the development team genuinely thought they would be able to find a suitable solution in time. From my perspective, as somebody new to the company, I can honestly tell you that the decision was not taken lightly. I am lucky enough to be spending time with talented game developers, and I was in meetings with David B and Michael B when these decisions were being made. You could see how hard this one was for them, because they value the community, and the community's opinions on the product, more than you realise. The game couldn't be as good as it is without your support, and the many hours you've put in to testing, and they know that.


Ed

Hi, Ed

Again, you are not making it clear enough. We know that it is possible to make offline game. David said that in latest newsletter. He also said that it might be reconsidered after release.

now can we get a clear answer do you play to do the offline version or not? If yes, when? If not, then you say that you'll newer do that.

That is very important thing to know since many of us will not ask for refunds if offline version will eventually be released. If it will be no offline version ever, then we will be forced to ask for refunds, since thais is not the Elite we wanted. And will be waiting for some game that respects original Elite legacy (it is really sad thing to say something like that on this forum)