No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[Antigonos]

as i said:
untill the game is released, no one played the GAME, so they should get the refund of the discounted price for the game.

people then can buy the game for full price again when they realise what a non issues this is they wanted a refund for. --> fd even makes MORE money ^^

 

[Magic Man]

According to the law when you pay for digital content even after you access the download it has to "meet any description" promised, otherwise you could advertise some content, deliver something else and claim that a refund after the download is not due. If the content doesn't meet the description completely the law mandates either repair or replacement when reasonable or a refund of part of the payment otherwise.

Do you consider the statements from Frontier that the game would include offline mode not to be enough to "describe" part of the digital content users were expected to receive?

You didn't pay for digital content. You paid to join a test program - the digital content is the test material of that program. You joined a beta program. That's what a beta program is. You got what you paid for.

 

[amigacooke]

Forum members and moderators should just draw a line under this and move on.

There are many threads I do not think are a live issue, so I just leave them alone.

Much more restful.

 

[Vargur]

I think it's entirely fair to ask that the moderators be afforded respect for their hard work.

As has been noted a number of times now, forum moderators are not paid employees of FD. They are community members and enthusiasts. They are volunteers.


What, may I ask, is preposterous about a request that unpaid volunteers, doing a thankless job, should be given "the respect they deserve"?

The preposterous part is about FD asking it, not about the mods deserving it.

 

[Antigonos]

According to the law when you pay for digital content even after you access the download it has to "meet any description" promised, otherwise you could advertise some content, deliver something else and claim that a refund after the download is not due. If the content doesn't meet the description completely the law mandates either repair or replacement when reasonable or a refund of part of the payment otherwise.

Do you consider the statements from Frontier that the game would include offline mode not to be enough to "describe" part of the digital content users were expected to receive?

yes and when on the box of elite in the store or in the download description of the FINAL GAME would be written "100% offline Mode included" you may even be right.

 

[Vlodec]

I'm sorry but I really cant understand why this subject needs another thread started? I know people are upset by this decision but both Michael Brookes and David Braben have been on the forum explaining the reasons behind this decision. I would also imagine that David will again be questioned further about decision at the premier event tomorrow and explain in more detail so there really isn't a need for another thread. Forum members and moderators should just draw a line under this and move on.

Why do you think this hasn't happened?

 

[Drexen]

I'm sorry but I really cant understand why this subject needs another thread started? I know people are upset by this decision but both Michael Brookes and David Braben have been on the forum explaining the reasons behind this decision. I would also imagine that David will again be questioned further about decision at the premier event tomorrow and explain in more detail so there really isn't a need for another thread. Forum members and moderators should just draw a line under this and move on.

It's one of the areas where Frontier are showing good will by allowing the discussion to continue. Also, it would carry on regardless elsewhere so this at least contains it. Kudos also to Mr Brookes for sticking his head above the parapet. (Doesn't mean I agree with him but it's still appreciated)

 

[bart roberts]

Because we already had a refund policy in place which is being applied. As standard for digital downloads if you've already accessed the download then no refund applies.

Michael

However the UK consumer bill rights does say a consumer is entitled to a refund if the digital product is either faulty, not fit for purpose or is not as described. More info here http://discuss.bis.gov.uk/consumerrightsbill/what-are-my-rights-under-the-draft-bill-when-buying-digital-content/ A description can come from a website, point of sale or from a salesperson. More info here http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_goods_are_not_as_described_e/goods_dont_match_description.htm

Is this not Dave Braben describing the product as having an offline single player mode? I think it is.



Will the final game come with offline single player? No

Is the digital product coming as described? No

Therefore does UK consumer law then entitle us to a refund? Yes

 

[Michael Brookes]

I understand that - but with the furore caused, do you feel there were many people trying to take advantage of the fuss by falsely claiming that they were more ill-affected than their gameplay stats would suggest?

I have no idea - I have received some interesting threats though.

Michael

 

[XPhiler]

Random doesn't have to imply sudden changes, though; just look at Perlin noise, for instance... it can be as smooth as you want...

No doubt but thing is probably not even the online economy is going to have sudden changes yet that still seems to be of concern to people do you feel a random elements that might make a trade route less / more profitable based on pure luck would be more acceptable to those same people?

Dont get me wrong not trying to argue online is a good substitute for offline. Plenty of excellent points have been made why they're not the same. (no save games, server closure, server downtime, DDoS attacks just to name a few) I am just trying to understand this part specifically cause to me a static economy would be boring (follow the same trade route until you rich to the point of getting to choose which one of your 10 anacondas you feel like flying today.) and random is meant to imitate a functioning economy while using less resources, having the choice why not go with the real thing?

 

[Magic Man]

However the UK consumer bill rights does say a consumer is entitled to a refund if the digital product is either faulty, not fit for purpose or is not as described. More info here http://discuss.bis.gov.uk/consumerr...r-the-draft-bill-when-buying-digital-content/ A description can come from a website, point of sale or from a salesperson. More info here http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales..._described_e/goods_dont_match_description.htm

Is this not Dave Braben describing the product as having an offline single player mode? I think it is.

View attachment 1940

Will the final game come with offline single player? No

Is the digital product coming as described? No

Therefore does UK consumer law then entitle us to a refund? Yes

No. You didn't buy a product for you to claim it is faulty, not fit for purpose or not as described. YOU JOINED A BETA PROGRAM.

 

[Polared]

Irrespective. You bought access to a beta test, not a product.

or because of a promise made to provide a certain type of game!

ditto for your post above as well.

 

[Antigonos]

I have no idea - I have received some interesting threats though.

Michael

on the other hand, it shows how emotionaly invested some people are to your game.

threatening an EMPLOYEE over a COMPANY DECISION, is well... poor and making me sad

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

None, actually. I signed up at KS but not for any interest in Alpha / Beta access so I've not played or downloaded anything ED related.

then you perfectly eligible for a refund if i understand michael right.

 

[CMDR Don't Shoot]

I have no idea - I have received some interesting threats though.

Michael

The interesting thing about YOU getting threats, instead of the gamer gate targets, is that you can give law enforcement the information they need to proceed with prosecuting the guilty parties.

Sorry you have to put up with that kind of thing though.

 

[Shoklar]

However the UK consumer bill rights does say a consumer is entitled to a refund if the digital product is either faulty, not fit for purpose or is not as described. More info here http://discuss.bis.gov.uk/consumerrightsbill/what-are-my-rights-under-the-draft-bill-when-buying-digital-content/ A description can come from a website, point of sale or from a salesperson. More info here http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_goods_are_not_as_described_e/goods_dont_match_description.htm

Is this not Dave Braben describing the product as having an offline single player mode? I think it is.

View attachment 1940

Will the final game come with offline single player? No

Is the digital product coming as described? No

Therefore does UK consumer law then entitle us to a refund? Yes

So, you got a screenshot that was taken during beta testing development and things had to change. What of it? Does U.K law cover matierial that is in the development phase and subject to change, or is this for the 'finished' product that is deemed worthy for consumption of the general public.

Shok.

 

[amigacooke]

I have no idea - I have received some interesting threats though.

Michael

Sorry to hear that.

I used to work on the post office counter and I still haven't obliged the gentleman who wished cancer on me. Still, he may well get me in the end

 

[Antigonos]

the problem i see is that accessing beta and buying the final product wasnt seperated. this should be important for future kickstarter projects. the price for the final product should be showed seperatly. that way, this price can be refunded as long as the final product isnt delivered and still the developer gets the money for the beta/early acces thing.

 

[Sagan]

Those that are eligable under our current rules have been processed and we're looking into other cases.

Michael

Not in my case they haven't. My initial request for a refund was for the Elite: Dangerous - Lifetime Expansion Pass, A pre-order bought and paid for from your shop.

My first attempt was dismissed using the fact I was a Kickstarter Backer as an excuse... saying kickstarter pledges are not refundable (something I'm already aware off). That's not what I was asking for.

I opened a second ticket pointing out the mistake and AGAIN asked for a refund for the Elite: Dangerous - Lifetime Expansion Pass, A pre-order bought and paid for from your shop. Apparently the matter is now under investigation.

Since all undelivered pre-orders are entitled to a refund, I'm not sure what there is to investigate. So, to go back to the above quoted post, no, not all eligible under your current rules (i'm one of them) have been refunded.

 

[mbpoblet]

No doubt but thing is probably not even the online economy is going to have sudden changes yet that still seems to be of concern to people do you feel a random elements that might make a trade route less / more profitable based on pure luck would be more acceptable to those same people?

Dont get me wrong not trying to argue online is a good substitute for offline. Plenty of excellent points have been made why they're not the same. (no save games, server closure, server downtime, DDoS attacks just to name a few) I am just trying to understand this part specifically cause to me a static economy would be boring (follow the same trade route until you rich to the point of getting to choose which one of your 10 anacondas you feel like flying today.) and random is meant to imitate a functioning economy while using less resources, having the choice why not go with the real thing?

The "randomness" of procedural generation entirely depends on the algorithms you design, and in most cases could even be tweaked in an options menu (in an offline game, of course, online everyone has to have the same settings).

I went into more detail (and into your final question) in a rather long and probably boring post, if you're interested.

To answer your final question, though, if a user-influenced galaxy ends up being indistinguishable from a properly implemented procedurally generated one... why bother complicating things with user interaction, when procedural generation is simpler and cheaper?

 

[withnail]

I have no idea - I have received some interesting threats though.

Michael

You are kidding, aren't you?