NO to "third party tools" for ED

[maddavo]

Party party party tools

@Maddavo, could you tell me what third party tool is displaying that picture ;-)

AH! Haha. Now that one is from RedWizzard's tool. But what you've dug up is another fine example of something I got a huge amount of enjoyment from, plus a whole lot of giggles from others. Perhaps some explanation is necessary...

So there's a collective effort that's been going on to map the 3D coordinates of systems. The 3D coordinates are necessary for calculating distances between systems for navigation and trading routes. The GM has an XYZ grid but you can't actually get the precise coordinates of systems from the GM. The GM just tells you the distance of a system from the system you're in. So some clever commanders came up with various ways to calculate the coordinates of systems using a whole lot of entering of distances between systems. All the systems we have mapped are stored in a star database (EDSC) and they can be displayed in a 3D map. There are several tools that show a 3D map of all the systems that have known coordinates.

I thought it would be a fun thing to do some Galactic Skywriting. Essentially, I signed my name across the galaxy by exploring systems in a certain pattern and then reporting distances back to known systems so the coordinates would be calculated and stored in the star database. But I thought I would not tell anybody - I'd just let cmdrs find it like an easter egg. Well there were quite a few LOLs and ROTFLs when that was discovered. Here is the a picture I have from EDDiscovery:

http://i.imgur.com/YA5CzDi.jpg

Hehe

Ah @wolverine2710 - the post is here in your thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43362&page=5&p=2120570&viewfull=1#post2120570

... and I love this guy's discovery comment: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=170177&p=2601915&viewfull=1#post2601915

 

[Sapient6]

This is interesting and I'd like to explore this further with you. When you say there is a vast gulf - do you mean a vast gulf for yourself or a vast gulf for the other person? I get a sense that it matters deeply to you how other people come across the same trade route as you. My question is why? Is your enjoyment of the game affected? (NOT what you imagine the enjoyment of the other person to be) How is your gameplay affected? Does the trade route become less satisfying to you if someone else is doing the same run? Do you prefer being the lone trader at a station? OR if the vast gulf refers to the other person then why does what happens in someone else's mind matter so deeply to you? Is it possible that part of you has a compulsion to live vicariously through others and so does it follow that you are very concerned about what others think and what they do with respect to how you imagine others should be playing? Have you heard of co-dependence?

I am genuinely interested to understand. For me, I am a tad co-dependent - probably why I am interested. But with respect to trading this manifests in a genuine enjoyment in helping others and meeting others in a group or community of traders and this also goes hand in hand with accepting their help. Sure I enjoy finding my own trade route, but I also enjoy getting a tip from someone else or a tool.

Nothing so deep or complex.

If another cmdr were to benefit financially from my trade data, then I'd want a cut. In fact, I want a say in how big that cut is (it would be prohibitively huge).

But that's entirely hypothetical because I'd never voluntarily share my data without some way to take a cut from any profit made with its use. In actual practice, another cmdr hitting the same stations as I am doesn't bother me. Those commodity markets are for anyone who cares to exploit them. I can tell when the good ones are found because then they dry up with a quickness. I'm glad about that, it would be lame if the best stuff stayed the best stuff, because I'd have little reason to find the new best stuff.

As far as seeing other cmdrs? That's never happened. I play in Mobius, and I'm not playing in high traffic systems.

 

[maddavo]

If another cmdr were to benefit financially from my trade data, then I'd want a cut. In fact, I want a say in how big that cut is (it would be prohibitively huge).

Would you consider trading the other cmdr's trade data for your own?
Would you consider joining a wing with the other commander to earn trade dividends?

 

[OamodSias]

Perfect example of why 3rd party tools are awesome.
I have enough cash to buy a Vulture, I've been to 5 different systems with no luck.
I used EDCodex ( <3 ) to look for a tool to help me, I found ED-TD.SPACE which has a ship finder. I'm now on my way to buying my vulture.
You wouldn't drive around all day looking for that car you want to buy, you'd go online to find a dealer that has it. So why on earth would people expect us to behave differently in ED? :/
Madness!

 

[Bacalao]

Trading in this game is interactive, engaging, consistent, and believable. It's also a lot of fun, and can be quite exciting. It's also fundamental to the Elite experience, and one of the reasons I kick-started this game in the first place. I've played dozens of space trading sims, but none could capture the fun and excitement that is Elite. I wanted to play a new generation of Elite, not a generic syfy universe with the Elite logo taped to the cover, warped by focus groups and "follow the leader" publishers into something unrecognizable. And what we have today is pretty close to what I'd hoped, gameplay compromises notwithstanding, CQC not included.

Since I doubt either of us will be able to change the other's opinion, why don't we agree to disagree? You can keep playing your game on autopilot via your 3rd party apps, while I'll keep enjoying the antiquated game play I enjoy so much, perfectly content to never see the cockpit of an Anaconda in my life, because I'd much rather have fun playing inefficiently, than be bored "grinding" away at maximum efficiency.

Well good for you, playing a static, mindless, hand traded stock market isn't interactive for me....at all....it's lucrative, but not interactive. I suspect nostalgia is doing a lot for you, but I prefer engaging mechanics and rewarding interaction to an entirely flat, immutable, beige experience.

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Perfect example of why 3rd party tools are awesome.
I have enough cash to buy a Vulture, I've been to 5 different systems with no luck.
I used EDCodex ( <3 ) to look for a tool to help me, I found ED-TD.SPACE which has a ship finder. I'm now on my way to buying my vulture.
You wouldn't drive around all day looking for that car you want to buy, you'd go online to find a dealer that has it. So why on earth would people expect us to behave differently in ED? :/
Madness!

Because that is how it used to be in another game in this genre, and it did apparently make sense, but it doesn't now because of changes, but we would rather half ass it then make it functional in the name of nostalgia! LONG LIVE THE HARD WAY!

 

[Bacalao]

There is a vast gulf between someone finding the same trade route because they have access to my data, and finding it because they just found it.

Yes, there is also a vast gulf between someone who will drive around stubbornly lost and someone who will ask for directions, I'll let you guess which kind of person I'd rather be in a car with, and for more reasons than just wanting to get to where I am going. I suppose it's fine if you like driving around, my father in law does, good for him, that's fun for him. It's a frustrating boring hellish experience for me and I derive no enjoyment from it whatsoever. Honestly I couldn't care less if he was driving himself in circles all day, never seeing that his destination is only a block away and too stubborn to ask the gas station attendant where it is, it would leave me scratching my head if he thought I shouldn't be able to ask for directions though, or if it bothered him that I do.

 

[OamodSias]

Because that is how it used to be in another game in this genre, and it did apparently make sense, but it doesn't now because of changes, but we would rather half ass it then make it functional in the name of nostalgia! LONG LIVE THE HARD WAY!

If you're referring to the original Elite, then yeah sure .. but back then there was no internet and thus you *would* have had to drive around looking for that car.
Today, we has Googlez

Edit: Wrong quote.

 

[Buglet]

Yes, there is also a vast gulf between someone who will drive around stubbornly lost and someone who will ask for directions, I'll let you guess which kind of person I'd rather be in a car with, and for more reasons than just wanting to get to where I am going. I suppose it's fine if you like driving around, my father in law does, good for him, that's fun for him. It's a frustrating boring hellish experience for me and I derive no enjoyment from it whatsoever. Honestly I couldn't care less if he was driving himself in circles all day, never seeing that his destination is only a block away and too stubborn to ask the gas station attendant where it is, it would leave me scratching my head if he thought I shouldn't be able to ask for directions though, or if it bothered him that I do.

Sometimes someone makes a point so spectacularly that anyone who argues back is an idiot.

You are that someone. Have my blessings.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You can't say FD let you play way they want and then cry there's no info sharing in game. You can't have it both ways. Way game is designed and how shares any information indicates certain gameplay. You can choose not to play it that way. That's not the point. Point is there's certain design. You can like it, you can call it shallow, you can find your own reason for wanting certain elements...we all have learned being internet demagogues.

However it is a bit surprising any time this or related props up there's smug talk about how trading lacks info how so in future there's no info sharing tools. This for me indicate wanting to *change* game from current design not stick with current sharing tools. I wonder where "allow me to play my way" turned "my way only, other way doesn't make sense".

Its like there's generation of gamers who have learned to get what they want at any cost, ignoring at what expense it happens.

Yeah, I feel gamer's entitlement is real. That's what I wanted to say here.

Mods please close this thread, it goes in circles.

 

[Cody]

Mods please close this thread, it goes in circles.

Use the 'Report this post' thingy!

 

[Sapient6]

Would you consider trading the other cmdr's trade data for your own?
Would you consider joining a wing with the other commander to earn trade dividends?

I have no interest in having access to another commander's trade data. I trade in order to accumulate the data. Just gaining credits holds absolutely zero appeal to me.

Not sure why I'd want to follow another trader around. Sounds dull. But it's hard to say, because as I've pointed out: I've never seen another cmdr in game.

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Yes, there is also a vast gulf between someone who will drive around stubbornly lost and someone who will ask for directions, I'll let you guess which kind of person I'd rather be in a car with, and for more reasons than just wanting to get to where I am going. I suppose it's fine if you like driving around, my father in law does, good for him, that's fun for him. It's a frustrating boring hellish experience for me and I derive no enjoyment from it whatsoever. Honestly I couldn't care less if he was driving himself in circles all day, never seeing that his destination is only a block away and too stubborn to ask the gas station attendant where it is, it would leave me scratching my head if he thought I shouldn't be able to ask for directions though, or if it bothered him that I do.

Trading in ED does not offer a destination that I care about.

 

[Bacalao]

If you're referring to the original Elite, then yeah sure .. but back then there was no internet and thus you *would* have had to drive around looking for that car.
Today, we has Googlez

Exactly, and that's fine, I like that old elite was that way, and if the devs of old elite didn't see cross galaxy networks, that's fine. It was all consistent in the old elite universe. In the current elite universe we have better than internet, we have FTL internet, we have 60,000Ly instantaneously internet, why the devs did it is irrelevant, it's a game mechanic, and one that another game mechanic (commodities market) completely ignores, which leads to inconsistency and an inability to enjoy suspension of disbelief. I think having FTL comms opens the door for much much richer gameplay for trading. Below is something I suggested earlier in the thread, there are many other ways you could take advantage of the new mechanics introduced in Elite: Dangerous to make trading richer than it has ever been in any other previous iteration.

Spoiler

Rather than just having a commodities market where you fill up one of 5 goods at price A (regardless of how you're finding trades, you're looking for the same type) to go to another system and sell at price B and then get a complementary good and grindy grind away, we could have bulk goods transport at low profit margins (though still respectable income due to high quantity) and by doing so you gain rep as a trader, you build a trade network, you get contracts to move high value goods longer distances to meet unique demands (like how actual shipping works) within time limits.
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Here is a possible scenario: Station A wants me to move 1800T of good x to Station B within m amount of time, I get to station B and see that they want me to move 2000T of good y to Station C within n amount of time and Station C wants me to move 1200T of good Z to station D within o amount of time. These stations may or may not be in a loop, but the contract is only being offered now, as a trader I get to make a choice, can I move all the goods on time? Can I do it safely, is the payout worth it? Will this increase my standing with my trade company? Can I take shortcuts through hostile systems? Will an opposing trade company or pirate have info that these goods are being moved and target me? Do I accept all three and then take care of contract 1 then two then 3, or is there a more efficient way? Maybe as a very confident trader that is very efficient I can complete all three contracts by being careful with route plotting without wasting too much time, maybe I want to play it safe and only opt for one. All of this is much more engaging than 500T palladium to here, for 500T Res Separators back, aaaaaaaand repeat. No third party tool is going to quash the gameplay, it becomes dynamic and lets you use your brain and interact with the galaxy.
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Throw in an actual black market contact network and you've got opportunities for some really engaging, unique and challenging gameplay, or you could still just move tons and tons one jump back and forth for low, but stable and safe profit margins.

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Trading in ED does not offer a destination that I care about.

Then why are you in the car?

 

[Monk]

Mods please close this thread, it goes in circles.

Indeed, there is nothing further to discuss.

My attempt at summation

Pecisk implores players that there is much more to trading if you leave the tools behind and that those that think trading is too easy should try it without the crowd sourced aids.

People disagree:

- Like the tools, they add to game
- Don't tell me how to play
- They really enhance trading
- It isn't more fun, it is tedious

People in between:

- The trade economy itself needs enhancement to make crowd sourcing less relevant
- Whatevs...people do what they do, why even bother getting everyone riled up
- Wheee...pile on

People in agreement:
- Folks are missing out
- People have no room to criticize their enjoyment of trade if they are using crowd sourcing
- Crowd sourcing is ruinous to how trading should work. Routes get tapped too quickly
- This is how you Elite in Elite


And Ben Ryder is playing ED with bloody nubs for hands or something, in the dark and without sustenance.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I like the idea that sometimes you have to go fish to catch a fish...it usually takes some time.
I do not like the idea that a fish magically appears before me because I read about how to make that fish magically appear.

It's all a question of perspective. Do I auto-win all the time?
Sure would be nice but very far from reality and boredom would surely set in pretty quickly.
I like the way the game mimics real life, there are good times, there are disappointments.
Just how I play the game.
More rewarding to me when I actually earn the win rather than just be spoon fed reward after reward, after reward...
Why I don't play games that do this.

 

[lenna]

There is a vast gulf between someone finding the same trade route because they have access to my data, and finding it because they just found it. One of those things I have an issue with, the other doesn't matter to me at all. I'd suggest you to guess which one bothers me, but you wouldn't have to guess if you were responding to what I wrote instead of responding to whatever imaginary thing it is you are arguing against here.

As I understand it, unless you enter your trade data the data is not generally available, most of these consolidated database tools seem to require users to enter the data either manually or by using some additional tool. If you don't do either then YOUR data is not being used, we are not talking Spy Ware that is watching and recording your activities here - Tin Foil hat alert?

REALLY?

Then you go on to tell me what I will enjoy and what the point of playing any aspect of the game is. Sounds like you have a lot in common with the OP.

Of course I am not telling YOU what you get out of an aspect of a game, but rather speaking in general terms... Rather than resorting to personal insults, how about actually explaining your point of view more clearly and precisely, if it is just the usage of your personal trade activities then it is a false concern AFAIK.
---
What you enjoy out of trading in Elite does not change the simple fact that the trading mechanic itself in games such as Elite (and RPGs in general) only really serve one purpose - to earn in-game currency.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Closed at op req.