Non combat ship travel safety tips:

[SeregDuin]

Special attention to all the new and/or financially challenged players, I have seen one to many a trader or explorer needlessly be destroyed when dealing with player pirates or otherwise hostile CMDRs. These are a few tips to hopefully increase your chances of surviving an encounter with a hostile CMDR.

1: If you are trading, especially in an obvious trade ship (I.E. T6, T7, or T9) and are successfully interdicted by a player; IMMEDIATELY STOP YOUR ENGINES, DO NOT TRY TO RUN. If you run from a pirate you will almost certainly be shot at. Trade ships usually are not fast and do not have the defensive capability to withstand being shot at. Many pirates will try to disable your drives if you run, which if they are not able to do will most likely end in your death.
2: RESPOND/TALK to the CMDR(s) who interdicted you. All to often a trader is interdicted by a pirate and remains silent when the pirate makes his demands; bad idea. Most pirates are not pirates by necessity. If you talk you can get a bit of player interaction, and it lets the pirate know you are at least willing to hear them out. Remaining silent may lead the hostile CMDR to believe that you are planning to run, which increases the likelihood of them using you as target practice.
3: Be respectful, courteous. As I stated before, most pirates do it for fun. You can increase your chances of survival by playing along. Explain your situation to them, you may get off having to give even less cargo than what they initially demanded.

All this stated; some hostile CMDR(s) will blow you up just for the fun of it. A player like this may start shooting at you immediately after interdiction without making any demands. Talking to a player like this may still diffuse the situation however. Use your best judgment and always equip shields when traveling through systems with lots of players.

Open cargo doors, drop pants, assume the position.

 

[jmg]

Open cargo doors, drop pants, assume the position.

turn, burn, and start shooting at the scum.

 

[Fire70]

My pride is worth more than any cargo, though. And a pirate who gains nothing is one day closer to giving up pirating

Pirates are not in it for the credits so don't hold your breath. Euro Truck Simulator has traffic fines so it isn't all that smooth sailing there either. What would I give just to have a nice peaceful game...

 

[jmg]

Pirates are not in it for the credits so don't hold your breath. Euro Truck Simulator has traffic fines so it isn't all that smooth sailing there either. What would I give just to have a nice peaceful game...

they're not in it for the credits, but if they have to pay the insurance fees enough times ....

 

[Swearengen]

Well without resorting to name calling I have noticed that most pirates will run from a fight, hence the reason so many of them are now rocking Clippers and FDL's. I cannot blame them, most of the times I jumped in to entervene I had superior number or firepower on the pirates. Logic and strategy say to run in that situation.

What bothers me though is this (for those pirates that this does not apply then ignore. For every situation there is an exception to the rule):

I see a lot if pirates get mad when a trader uses whatever is at his disposal to flee a similar situation. Is it not the same thing as when the pirates ran from me and my mates? The trade ship is out numbered / out gunned. Does not strategy and logic state to flee that situation?

I suppose the hypocrisy of it is what bothers me the most.

Side note: "when a trader uses whatever is at his disposal". I am not implying or encouraging combat logging. That is an exploit and also dishonorable. Don't Combat Log!

Your post is spot on.

Most "pirates" are self aggrandizing, rationalizing, and too lazy to work for their money.

One guy in another thread even pictures himself as a "tax collector" performing a "public service".

Laughable.

 

[X-Terminator]

Playing as a Pirate was first intended to be a choice of role play but it makes it almost impossible to clean up. Today I encountered PvP in Diso. A group known as CODE have organized PvP around Leesti and want to spread it. They lure players to their group by using small ships by chatting or Winging up. Once there you get interdicted and blown up without reason by Anacondas and Clipper etc. It's no fun to either party as there was no gain. I had no bounty nor cargo. It was an obvious bait but I have tons of money to see how it played out. There was no text chat or nothing to make any Pirate demands. Just bang, boom, you need a new ship. Mindless to be honest as there was no match. My Asps shields are rubbish and also my speed. If there was anything to gain by him shooting me then fine if it was balanced or I could contact him on voice coms. But there is no time for making such calls under fire!
David Braben said about griefing: "they become social experiments and I think that's quite fun" - eh? Not to the underdogs it ain't!

 

[Ziljan]

I think it would be interesting and quite challenging to be a pirate and I harbor no grudges for being killed by them in Open, but if they think they are ever going to get cargo from me without a limpet they are drunk. I would rather end up bankrupt in a sidewinder than hand over one container willingly.

 

[jmg]

Playing as a Pirate was first intended to be a choice of role play but it makes it almost impossible to clean up. Today I encountered PvP in Diso. A group known as CODE have organized PvP around Leesti and want to spread it. They lure players to their group by using small ships by chatting or Winging up. Once there you get interdicted and blown up without reason by Anacondas and Clipper etc. It's no fun to either party as there was no gain. I had no bounty nor cargo. It was an obvious bait but I have tons of money to see how it played out. There was no text chat or nothing to make any Pirate demands. Just bang, boom, you need a new ship. Mindless to be honest as there was no match. My Asps shields are rubbish and also my speed. If there was anything to gain by him shooting me then fine if it was balanced or I could contact him on voice coms. But there is no time for making such calls under fire!
David Braben said about griefing: "they become social experiments and I think that's quite fun" - eh? Not to the underdogs it ain't!

And this is the problem -- Code are one of the worst offenders. They're not pirates. They're all psycho griefers that just kill for the sake of killing.

- - - Updated - - -

if they think they are ever going to get cargo from me without a limpet they are drunk. I would rather end up bankrupt in a sidewinder than hand over one container willingly.

well said.

 

[Jethzk]

The same reason the U.S. doesn't negotiate with terrorists.
If pirates knew the only thing that would happen during in interdiction was (a) fight or (b) their target self destructs, then pirates wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Piracy has long been endorsed by various nations. Early pirates were often backed by countries with instructions to pirate other countries. Just because a pirate doesn't show their flag, doesn't mean that they don't have an agenda or support of various nations/factions.

We in the U.S. will not negotiate with terrorists; but we will train them...

 

[Swearengen]

Playing as a Pirate was first intended to be a choice of role play but it makes it almost impossible to clean up. Today I encountered PvP in Diso. A group known as CODE have organized PvP around Leesti and want to spread it. They lure players to their group by using small ships by chatting or Winging up. Once there you get interdicted and blown up without reason by Anacondas and Clipper etc. It's no fun to either party as there was no gain. I had no bounty nor cargo. It was an obvious bait but I have tons of money to see how it played out. There was no text chat or nothing to make any Pirate demands. Just bang, boom, you need a new ship. Mindless to be honest as there was no match. My Asps shields are rubbish and also my speed. If there was anything to gain by him shooting me then fine if it was balanced or I could contact him on voice coms. But there is no time for making such calls under fire!
David Braben said about griefing: "they become social experiments and I think that's quite fun" - eh? Not to the underdogs it ain't!

I am organizing an anti pirate group for just such things as these low lifes. I will have a TS server for real time intel. Stay tuned...

 

[jmg]

Piracy has long been endorsed by various nations. Early pirates were often backed by countries with instructions to pirate other countries. .

And this supports your position, how?
Because, ahh, last time checked the pirates in here were NOT backed by any countries. And by the way, your history is wrong. Pirates were not backed by major industrial countries. civilian ships backed by a sovereign were called privateers," with specific mandates and targets-- of a country they were at war with (obviously I'm thinking of the legendary English privateers used against France; the U.S. also used them against Britain.) *Some* of them became pirates when their countries disowned them after the war was over and they operated outside their mandate, and started to murder and pillage in addition to taking ships. None of which has happened in game. so, once again, yet another irrelevant post.
.

Anyway, I'm so glad you posted this. Your "reasoning" is very typical of pirate mentality, and demonstrates exactly the lengths people go to in game to justify fantasizing/role playing a murdering criminal. you'll say anything to make your in game character seem legit. seriously, be a man, embrace that your playing a scumbag killer. don't pretend you're morally justified. you want to play a killer, fine.. its a game, and it's a supported function. Don't insult yourself by claiming you're in the same moral hemisphere as a trader. It just makes you look ignorant.

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I am organizing an anti pirate group for just such things as these low lifes. I will have a TS server for real time intel. Stay tuned...

.
like I said, I'm in. I've got an anaconda battle wagon that already has some pirates smeared on the windsheild. Buggers can't run fast enough when they see a "trade" conda pop out an a7 plasma, and a bunch of beams and cannons...

 

[Deathwatch]

People need to accept pirates do have a right to exist.

This game isn't meant to allow a trader in a trade speced ship to fly without fear of being out bonded by another commander after what they are hauling, they should be hiring people to protect them during transit which is how clearly the NPC's do it, being a commander doesn't make you special, its just a fancy thing to call you a PC.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

You've chosen a character that ignores in-game rules, kills in-game people, and yet demand the same benefits of in-game society as everyone else. you can't chose a player that operates outside the in-game societal rules and expect to be treated lie every other in-game citizen.

Devils advocate here

• When in Federation space I am a model citizen - working on my progression to climb the ranks; own Federation ships; love the Federation and can't wait to own a corvette.

• When in Empire space I am .. different. I really couldn't give a rats behind for them flowery nobodies all dolled up, floundering around like spineless peacocks and it's my mission to bring them to their knees just prior to removing their cargo bay doors, helping myself to their goods, and (if I am forced to though I don't enjoy it) murder them to make a point.

• A hero and a criminal

Now what you going to do

 

[GluttonyFang]

Let's be clear-- I'm not taking any extreme positions. Pirates are, by definition, operating outside the law. This is not a "perspective" my friend. It's a fact. a pirate BY DEFINITION is a criminal. What you're saying is akin to arguing that a has some moral basis for doing what they do from someone else's perspective. But built into the word "" ... just like "pirate"... is criminal. You can't separate the "criminal" from "pirate," any more than more than you can separate the "criminal" from "." see what *I* did there?
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A pirate giving newbies advice on how to avoid annoying a pirate by giving up his cargo without fighting helps ONLY the pirates. It's ironic. And, I admit, somewhat clever. Get the newbies trained to drop pants, bend over and squirt from the get-go, and that just makes your life easier. If people listened to me and fought each and every time, on the theory that it'll help in the long run, well, that would just make pirate's lives miserable (not to mention self-destructing). Advice like the OP's is advice a smart pirate would give. It's playing to your character.
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You want to role play, you want to fantasize about being jack sparrow, go for it. Just don't think everyone on here is ignorant enough to buy into an argument that a criminal is somehow the moral equivalent to a trader.

I think I see the issue here.

Let me state my thesis: "Anything can be rationalized and justified."

Now I shall proceed. Yes, pirates do operate outside the "law." But we must keep in mind that what a crime is, and what laws are. Crime is basically an act prohibited by law, and law in this context is nothing but human-made rules on how a nomocracy should operate. Therefore by simply changing the nomocracy, or change our perspective into a different environment, and view it from a different set of lens.

If you still do not understand, then read up on R.M. Hare's defense for Utilitarianism on slavery, and how slavery can be justified.

Of course, you can then use his argument to claim that imaginary cases should not be aligned with reality. However, we are in a video game, therefore it is one of the imaginary cases. Thus, I can easily say that piracy is not a crime, rapists are not criminals, as long as I provide the necessary environment for them to be considered legal.

You are obstinately clinging on to the sense of morality that you current live in and experience. You will make a fine citizen in any nomocracy, that is true, however this blind acceptance of what is provided to you by influence will prohibit quite a lot of intellectual growth, on the other hand.

You don't have to believe pirates are morally equivalent, that is an entitled opinion. But saying that it is a superior argument to everything else, is something I must argue against.

We are trying to influence the greenhorns as much as you are, merely that you are training them to obey and follow your principles and morals, while we are doing the same with another set of principles and morals that we wish to impose. We are both forces of coercion without affinity.

Read up on Nietzsche if you still cling strongly to the idea that this world has innate "right" or "wrong". Maybe it will shed some light for you.

 

[Morbad]

If you are bringing up a nation and how it deals with Piracy, then that warrants my response to discredit that nation and its constructs to better my argument.

I don't think it makes for a better argument as much as it replaces the argument with a logical fallacy. The merits you listed off concerning the nation in the original example had nothing to do with the point being made.

I agree appeasement does not garner the best result, but for the sake of the game where piracy is actually advertised as a feature within the game, I believe some viability should be granted to said profession. I believe that perhaps a harsher punishment and better profit can do as a balancing act. Currently we need to prevent pirate-wana-be from grieving due to the lack of punishment, but also reward dedicated pirates by providing lucrative compensation to ensure a healthy population of pirates in the game.

I think piracy can be made viable in a completely organic manner, without having to have overly lenient treatment from NPC's and their organizations. Certain mechanisms that piracy depends on could be refined, and I certainly agree that it could be made more lucrative. However, there should be credible legal deterrents to piracy, and not just kind of "pirates" that kill their victims.

Some beneficial changes are already being made: The SC shield recharge fix that 1.3 will brings will make it harder on those traders who just submit and low wake repeatedly to get to their destinations. Drones could make collecting one's booty faster and less dangerous.

Some other areas that I feel could be looked at: FSD cooldowns; mass lock ranges, magnitudes, and granularity; as well as piracy specific tools.

Regarding NPC behavior, I'd like to see more variety in laws and enforcement between systems, as well as more plausible countermeasures. For example, high sec areas should have security forces dropping into low wakes automatically and systems cracking down on piracy should fine the snot out of traders whose cargo winds up in pirate hands without being flagged as stolen. Known pirates, even after their have paid off their fines/bounties, could be shadowed by authority ships. On the pro-piracy side of behavior, it would be neat to see corrupt authority every now and again; some may want a cut of the cargo, or may demand a personal mission be performed in exchange for waving a fine or bounty report. Piracy missions in general should also be more fully fleshed out. There should be NPC fences and agents who could relabel stolen property, for a nominal fee that depends on reputation.

When it comes to tools, something like a comms jammer that prevents distress signals, wing beacons, and crime reports from getting out would be a nice addition; more advanced versions could also have a chance at interfering with navigation/sensors. Tracking devices, either fired at ships, or hidden in cargo, would have utility for both piracy and anti-piracy, among other things. Sensor decoys and/or obfuscators could make false sensor contacts, or alter the details of a real one. Of course, any such tools would need to be carefully balanced.

 

[jmg]

But it doesn't violate ingame stuff, different systems have different laws they can just have there insurance there for example nothing stopping them is there.

Now logically if you self destruct you shouldn't get insurance payout because you made the choice to destroy yourself thus voiding your insurance.

I checked my in-game insurance policy. No provisions against self-destruction (and, all kidding aside, to be a little creepy for a minute, this has a basis in reality -- most life insurance policies either have no provisions against suicide, or have a cool down period, say two years. They virtually all (in the us anyway) void payment if you're killed in the act of committing a crime).
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Anyway, I get your point. I have nothing against the existence of pirates in game. As I've pointed out, they are a supported feature. My only gripe -- which I believe gluttony has accepted (although it's difficult to see his point through the rhetoric) is that an in-game pirate is a criminal. If you chose to be a criminal, don't complain about people shooting first and asking questions later. Don't complain how hard the game is because people keep self destructing rather than hand over cargo. Don't complain that you're being in anyway treated unfairly. You're a criminal, you SHOULD be treated unfairly.
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Like I've said multiple times, I'm not advocating that FD remove piracy. It does add a certain depth. But jeeze.. people (in this very post) just can't embrace that they're a criminal. They instead try to justify that pirates are just as moral as traders.

Be a man, embrace being a pirate, tell me to go "arrrgggh" myself, and move on. embrace being a scumbag.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

[Really well presented post]

Completely agree Morbad with the refinements you mentioned. The DDF (FD's "vision" with input from the players) I believe tackled a lot of the things you suggested that have been sidelined for one reason or another. The game we received at launch was a "minimally viable" product with the proviso that FD will add to it as time goes by. You are correct in that 1.3 will bring some changes to the way in which criminals are handled and I suspect in time more enhancements and changes will come.

I pray also for "letters of marque" - another FD idea for permission to go capture / kill things without fearing repercussions.

+1 Morbad


Edit:
Gluttonyfang - please try to avoid putting your text in grey & just leave on the default : some of us (myself included) use a different skin on the forum so grey text on a black background is a little hard to read, and you do have some very interesting points that I like reading

 

[Tarman]

I don't think it makes for a better argument as much as it replaces the argument with a logical fallacy. The merits you listed off concerning the nation in the original example had nothing to do with the point being made.



I think piracy can be made viable in a completely organic manner, without having to have overly lenient treatment from NPC's and their organizations. Certain mechanisms that piracy depends on could be refined, and I certainly agree that it could be made more lucrative. However, there should be credible legal deterrents to piracy, and not just kind of "pirates" that kill their victims.

Some beneficial changes are already being made: The SC shield recharge fix that 1.3 will brings will make it harder on those traders who just submit and low wake repeatedly to get to their destinations. Drones could make collecting one's booty faster and less dangerous.

Some other areas that I feel could be looked at: FSD cooldowns; mass lock ranges, magnitudes, and granularity; as well as piracy specific tools.

Regarding NPC behavior, I'd like to see more variety in laws and enforcement between systems, as well as more plausible countermeasures. For example, high sec areas should have security forces dropping into low wakes automatically and systems cracking down on piracy should fine the snot out of traders whose cargo winds up in pirate hands without being flagged as stolen. Known pirates, even after their have paid off their fines/bounties, could be shadowed by authority ships. On the pro-piracy side of behavior, it would be neat to see corrupt authority every now and again; some may want a cut of the cargo, or may demand a personal mission be performed in exchange for waving a fine or bounty report. Piracy missions in general should also be more fully fleshed out. There should be NPC fences and agents who could relabel stolen property, for a nominal fee that depends on reputation.

When it comes to tools, something like a comms jammer that prevents distress signals, wing beacons, and crime reports from getting out would be a nice addition; more advanced versions could also have a chance at interfering with navigation/sensors. Tracking devices, either fired at ships, or hidden in cargo, would have utility for both piracy and anti-piracy, among other things. Sensor decoys and/or obfuscators could make false sensor contacts, or alter the details of a real one. Of course, any such tools would need to be carefully balanced.

Super solid post; these are some very good ideas to solidify the gameplay in and around the grey and black areas of the law.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I don't think it makes for a better argument as much as it replaces the argument with a logical fallacy. The merits you listed off concerning the nation in the original example had nothing to do with the point being made.



I think piracy can be made viable in a completely organic manner, without having to have overly lenient treatment from NPC's and their organizations. Certain mechanisms that piracy depends on could be refined, and I certainly agree that it could be made more lucrative. However, there should be credible legal deterrents to piracy, and not just kind of "pirates" that kill their victims.

Some beneficial changes are already being made: The SC shield recharge fix that 1.3 will brings will make it harder on those traders who just submit and low wake repeatedly to get to their destinations. Drones could make collecting one's booty faster and less dangerous.

Some other areas that I feel could be looked at: FSD cooldowns; mass lock ranges, magnitudes, and granularity; as well as piracy specific tools.

Regarding NPC behavior, I'd like to see more variety in laws and enforcement between systems, as well as more plausible countermeasures. For example, high sec areas should have security forces dropping into low wakes automatically and systems cracking down on piracy should fine the snot out of traders whose cargo winds up in pirate hands without being flagged as stolen. Known pirates, even after their have paid off their fines/bounties, could be shadowed by authority ships. On the pro-piracy side of behavior, it would be neat to see corrupt authority every now and again; some may want a cut of the cargo, or may demand a personal mission be performed in exchange for waving a fine or bounty report. Piracy missions in general should also be more fully fleshed out. There should be NPC fences and agents who could relabel stolen property, for a nominal fee that depends on reputation.

When it comes to tools, something like a comms jammer that prevents distress signals, wing beacons, and crime reports from getting out would be a nice addition; more advanced versions could also have a chance at interfering with navigation/sensors. Tracking devices, either fired at ships, or hidden in cargo, would have utility for both piracy and anti-piracy, among other things. Sensor decoys and/or obfuscators could make false sensor contacts, or alter the details of a real one. Of course, any such tools would need to be carefully balanced.

If we are playing around with logical fallacy then I can claim at any point that my conversation with Jmg is nothing but red herring. Or we can play with strawman all day (This fallacy itself is a fallacy if you ask me). Discrediting a nation's political structure and decisions have direct aligning to the policy explicitly mentioned.

As for your suggestions, I completely agree, very good thoughts.

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Edit:
Gluttonyfang - please try to avoid putting your text in grey & just leave on the default : some of us (myself included) use a different skin on the forum so grey text on a black background is a little hard to read, and you do have some very interesting points that I like reading

My bad my bad, I'll pay attention to that the next time.

 

[Deathwatch]

I checked my in-game insurance policy. No provisions against self-destruction (and, all kidding aside, to be a little creepy for a minute, this has a basis in reality -- most life insurance policies either have no provisions against suicide, or have a cool down period, say two years. They virtually all (in the us anyway) void payment if you're killed in the act of committing a crime).
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Anyway, I get your point. I have nothing against the existence of pirates in game. As I've pointed out, they are a supported feature. My only gripe -- which I believe gluttony has accepted (although it's difficult to see his point through the rhetoric) is that an in-game pirate is a criminal. If you chose to be a criminal, don't complain about people shooting first and asking questions later. Don't complain how hard the game is because people keep self destructing rather than hand over cargo. Don't complain that you're being in anyway treated unfairly. You're a criminal, you SHOULD be treated unfairly.
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Like I've said multiple times, I'm not advocating that FD remove piracy. It does add a certain depth. But jeeze.. people (in this very post) just can't embrace that they're a criminal. They instead try to justify that pirates are just as moral as traders.

Be a man, embrace being a pirate, tell me to go "arrrgggh" myself, and move on. embrace being a scumbag.

This isn't life insurance man this is vehicle insurance last time i checked self destruction is 100% fault and thus the company won't pay out.