Not possible to outmaneuver high ranked NPC, agility rating has no meaning suddenly

[kiario]

I Think its kinda rediculous that you really cant outmaneuver high ranked NPC in large ships with your Little nimble Sidewinder or similar.

Why does the agility rating of your i.e Sidewinder suddenly have no meaning when the NPC is high ranked, he can still keep his nose against your ship almost 100% even if I have agility 8 and the enemy agility 2.

And I really dont Think that after 200.000 more kills when you yourself has high ranking meaning more experience in reality that you then know how to outmaneuver them.

I Think digfight against higher ranked NPC is almost broken if you want to fly a small agile fighter because you simply cant stay out of their nose cone and avoid fire.

I fly FA-OFF and its seamingly stupid that the only option is to either face tank them or play the jaust game.

Why cant we have proper digfighting where smaller Craft can stay behind larger less agile vessels.?

This on the Point pivoting and facing the player programmed AI really is a poor way to make NPC challenging. Does not feel like you are having a good dogfight.

 

[Doolittle]

It's called an arcade pew-pew game. With FDs ability to provide continued bad game mechanics don't expect things to change. They'll even magically appear just to cause you grief, and FD calls it gameplay.

 

[Faybs]

All ships in Elite have decent to great pitch and terrible yaw. Force them to yaw towards you while you pitch-strafe around them (to an outside observer you'll look like the classic drawing of an electron orbiting the nucleus of an atom - a cheesy kung-fu name for it could be The Spider Wraps its Prey). I've taken out Deadly anacondas that way in my Viper IV.

 

[Mohrgan]

From Dangerous on the AI can fly. They have perfect control of their Pips, and Thrusters. Well, maybe not perfect but noticeably good. If you try to just face tank, or out turn them you'll take damage. Faybs touches on the need to use your thrusters to stay out of their firing arc, but you may aneed to use FAoff appropriately really take them out, without a repair bill.

 

[-Denali-]

The problem I always have in a small ship is the extra speed. You turn faster but you also drift much further while you turn. Large ships have less forward thrust so they cover less ground (drift) when they turn. This can make their turns sharper than a small, drifting ship. The key is thrust control. You really should have forward and reverse thrust mapped, if you don't already. You can reverse thrust and fa off flip to decrease drifting. You can also learn to boost when you want to change direction (you will see the better pilots doing this in their videos for a reason).

Another thing that is sort of funny but works for me when fighting a very slow ship is to reduce my max speed. Deploying my cargo scoop can pretty much let me hang behind a conda with just the thruster keys.

 

[Arry]

The NPCs have to work their way through the ranks, just like the rest of us. They can just grind themselves a billion credits it private groups and then drop into open in a maxed out Cutter. They are constantly fighting real players, from day one and so the higher ranks are given extra time and tuition by the Goddess.

 

[metatheurgist]

Never flown a Sidey but I certainly have no issues outflying NPC Anacondas in a Vulture. It's almost sad how they can't point their guns at me.

 

[Volimar]

Never flown a Sidey but I certainly have no issues outflying NPC Anacondas in a Vulture. It's almost sad how they can't point their guns at me.

How....how have you never flown a Sidey?

 

[Mohrgan]

How....how have you never flown a Sidey?

He might have started off in a Freagle.

 

[Volimar]

He might have started off in a Freagle.

Huh....it occurs to me that the beginning days of my account are a complete blur to me.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Huh....it occurs to me that the beginning days of my account are a complete blur to me.

I only flew the Sidey for about 30 minutes. Lol
I vaguely remember running a mission or two, then buying an Eagle. Lol

 

[jacozilla]

OP is confusing out-turn vs. outmaneuver.

ACM is both a function of physical parameters like turn rates + equally tangible but harder to quantify 'pilot skill' with single measurement

The degree to which you can 'outmaneuver' someone is a combination of the two, and unless your aircraft is so vastly inferior in the former, the latter usually takes far greater precedence.

If you make the dogfight about who can out turn, pitch, or yaw the other, then it will simply be airframe vs airframe and the superior machine will win. Add the pilot factor and the degree to which you can 'outmaneuver' someone gets a whole lot broader.

So if OP can't 'outmaneuver' an NPC ship, I'd suggest his own mental agility is what would provide the edge he needs.

 

[Sathayorn]

It's notable that the sidewinder is one of the slowest ships, and getting behind a... Python, for instance, can be difficult, as NPC's adopted the "fly backwards" technique two years ago. Then you have to consider how many pips you put in engines greatly affects your maneuverability.

Sidewinder is a great ship for taking out SLF, but easily the worst ship (excluding some dedicated transports) for combat in the game.

 

[kiario]

OP is confusing out-turn vs. outmaneuver.

ACM is both a function of physical parameters like turn rates + equally tangible but harder to quantify 'pilot skill' with single measurement

The degree to which you can 'outmaneuver' someone is a combination of the two, and unless your aircraft is so vastly inferior in the former, the latter usually takes far greater precedence.

If you make the dogfight about who can out turn, pitch, or yaw the other, then it will simply be airframe vs airframe and the superior machine will win. Add the pilot factor and the degree to which you can 'outmaneuver' someone gets a whole lot broader.

So if OP can't 'outmaneuver' an NPC ship, I'd suggest his own mental agility is what would provide the edge he needs.

Hi, It is as the other poster said, Dangerous and higher are very skilled and almost impossible to outmaneuver and stay behind. I have no issue with the ranks below. IT seems like the devs has resorted to almost NPC cheating skills just to make them challenging.
Anyway, Large ships are far to maneuoverable compared to small ships. Thats the only advantage they should have but it does not seem to work, not in Sidewinders favour anyway

- - - Updated - - -

It's notable that the sidewinder is one of the slowest ships, and getting behind a... Python, for instance, can be difficult, as NPC's adopted the "fly backwards" technique two years ago. Then you have to consider how many pips you put in engines greatly affects your maneuverability.

Sidewinder is a great ship for taking out SLF, but easily the worst ship (excluding some dedicated transports) for combat in the game.

Yes, it is not fast i agree. Smaller ships should really be faster compared to huge ones. Like if you are front to front with a Clipper and he decides to reverse making it almost impossible for a Sidewinder to get behind
it. It would be better if in that situation if the Sidewinder pushes hard forward he should easily be able to tail the Clipper.

Aren't big ships unrealistically too fast in reverse? Maybe that is the root of the problem?

 

[Dirtbird]

All ships in Elite have decent to great pitch and terrible yaw. Force them to yaw towards you while you pitch-strafe around them (to an outside observer you'll look like the classic drawing of an electron orbiting the nucleus of an atom - a cheesy kung-fu name for it could be The Spider Wraps its Prey). I've taken out Deadly anacondas that way in my Viper IV.

I was facing a Master Python NPC yesterday who seemed to be flying a lot better than others I've fought. That was pretty much the technique that I used to take it out in my Vulture. I did notice that my up/down thrust plus pitch was about the same speed as their pitch on the spot, while being about 150m away. It was fairly tricky to get in behind and I did take a bit of a beating (they had gimballed weapons and I didn't have chaff) while getting in there, but once I was behind the Python, it was all over.

 

[Sathayorn]

Yes, it is not fast i agree. Smaller ships should really be faster compared to huge ones. Like if you are front to front with a Clipper and he decides to reverse making it almost impossible for a Sidewinder to get behind
it. It would be better if in that situation if the Sidewinder pushes hard forward he should easily be able to tail the Clipper.

Aren't big ships unrealistically too fast in reverse? Maybe that is the root of the problem?

Comparative engine size has a lot to do with speed though, take a RC toy car and compare it to a actual car (Admittedly a ridiculous compassion if you don't consider the size and price differences are similar.) Then you should consider the relative firepower of the two ships. You could probably still take out a skilled NPC Anaconda in an eagle, but the sidewinder is simply a bad ship. Reverse speeds are fine, especially given that NPC's can't turn flight assist off.

Maneuverability is a major factor in ship to ship combat. Scrape your credits together and try out an imperial cutter, flies like a brick firmly held to a wall by mortar. Also notable, Maneuverability is more than just turn rate, it includes factors such as vertical and lateral thrust, ability to decelerate and so on.

 

[kiario]

Comparative engine size has a lot to do with speed though, take a RC toy car and compare it to a actual car (Admittedly a ridiculous compassion if you don't consider the size and price differences are similar.) Then you should consider the relative firepower of the two ships. You could probably still take out a skilled NPC Anaconda in an eagle, but the sidewinder is simply a bad ship. Reverse speeds are fine, especially given that NPC's can't turn flight assist off.

Maneuverability is a major factor in ship to ship combat. Scrape your credits together and try out an imperial cutter, flies like a brick firmly held to a wall by mortar. Also notable, Maneuverability is more than just turn rate, it includes factors such as vertical and lateral thrust, ability to decelerate and so on.

The Sidewinder is by my experience the most agile ship. Test it by dancing around inside a station with FA-OFF. Its very fun. Thats the best ship to do that in. Because its so low weight the thrusters feel very responsive.

 

[metatheurgist]

How....how have you never flown a Sidey?

As a filthy backer I started in a Cobra.

 

[Truesilver]

I Think digfight against higher ranked NPC is almost broken if you want to fly a small agile fighter because you simply cant stay out of their nose cone and avoid fire.

I fly FA-OFF and its seamingly stupid that the only option is to either face tank them or play the jaust game.

Why cant we have proper digfighting where smaller Craft can stay behind larger less agile vessels.?

OP, you are not complaining about NPC's. It's precisely the same against competent PvP players.

Because we are flying in a weightless vacuum with 6 axes of motion thrusters there's no question of staying behind anyone, ever. I couldn't stay behind a competently flown Lakon Type-9 in my g5 dirty enhanced drives Courier.

Ultimately, that's the game. Personally, like you, I would prefer it to be a little more artificially WWII but many players, for good reason, say it's already too unrealistically like an atmospheric flight model as it is.

What you can do, however, versus player or NPC, is limit their time on target. Basically their nose will be facing you most of the time but you can get it so it's facing you and missing.

I was at the CG last night facing skilled players in FdL and FAS in my Courier and making them miss (usually) for 20 to 25 mins while I eroded their titanic hit points.

And contrary to popular belief NPC's miss more than the better players, especially if using plasma against a small target employing lateral thrust.

My (fairly recently updated) circle-strafing thread might be of some assistance, o7:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...silver-s-Top-Tips-Beginner-s-Guide-VR-PvP-Vid

 

[Krieger]

Also keep in mind that NPCs ranked Deadly and Elite always have some engineered modules (Master and Dangerous NPCs also have them sometimes). Quite often they have engineered thrusters which makes them faster and even more agile.

NPCs do not dogfight. Dogfighting means manoeuvring to get a shot opportunity while staying out of the firing line/cone of an opponent. Instead NPCs use a few simple rules (I won't call them tactics): 1. point nose at target and fire (turretting), 2. keep fixed slant range to target (leads to reversing if you approach) and 3. if all fails: joust and start over. On top of that they have a repertoire of diversions that trigger on certain conditions or get triggered at random, like: if target comes too close: boost, or if range < 1000 m: jiggle around using thrusters or strafe left/right, etc. After each diversion they fall back on the base rules again.

In combination with better NPC loadouts (armour, shield cell bank, rail guns!, etc) and engineering they are much harder to beat than in season 1. I find the NPC's behaviour annoying now because I prefer tactical manoeuvring over arcade style point-and-shoot. But who am I? YMMV.