News NPC AI Update - 2.1.03 and beyond

[Sunleader]

It's always amusing how lighthearted people draw conclusions from a single incident. The last days of 2.1.02 I experimented the first time with seeker missiles and pronto the first AI I met had point defence! Conclusion? From one single incident? No way, that's just silly. Last night I was flying some missions, some of them Elite missions (above my trading/combat skill) and wasn't interdicted even once. Do I sing the song of how badly the AI has been nerved with 2.1.03 now? No way. Just let it settle down a few days and we'll see. All this hysteria... [haha]

Well.
If your Ship gets Killed in about 15 Seconds. You can draw Conclusions.

Either they tried to Sneak in The Engi Weapons again and this resulted in another Bug Out Super Kill.
Or they Buffed AI again.


Not much Choices here you know.
Regardless. Its very Frustrating. I am not feeling like Playing the Game now anymore.
Guess I.ll check back Tomorrow. Or maybe in a Week when they decided where to go.



It was already Annoying that I had to Set my Turrets EACH Fight so they dont Stuck at Fire at Will.
And it was a Hassle that I got Interdicted the entire time again.

But that one was the Drop that Overflooded the barrel.
Now I am just Frustrated.

 

[zzehirbazz]

But a 'significant portion' were not. I'm sure you understand how this works Ziljan. Barring bugs fixed/introduced the AI appears unchanged, but ime longer delays before opening fire make it easier to adapt to. How do you think SJA would respond to your recent complaints?

I think the answer lies in putting s slider called DIFFICULTY in game menus. The players and mission specific NPC`s will be persistent.

BUT

the NPC`s that interdict you, fight you,etc whatever will use the DUMB MODE in EASY DIFFICULTY. 2.1 MODE in MEDIUM DIFFICULTY. and TERMINATOR MODE in HARD DIFFICULTY

Right now Frontier has 3 different difficulty levels for NPCS. Why not keep them all and make them optional?

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I think the answer lies in putting s slider called DIFFICULTY in game menus. The players and mission specific NPC`s will be persistent.

BUT

the NPC`s that interdict you, fight you,etc whatever will use the DUMB MODE in EASY DIFFICULTY. 2.1 MODE in MEDIUM DIFFICULTY. and TERMINATOR MODE in HARD DIFFICULTY

Right now Frontier has 3 different difficulty levels for NPCS. Why not keep them all and make them optional?

The DIFFICULTY SLIDER should be on the Galaxy Map... when you choose the system destination.


NPC hostility, capability, aggression, equipment level and motivation should all come from situational cues.

- WHERE are you flying? (ie. What is the Security Level?)
- WHAT have you recently been doing? (ie. Have you crossed anyone dangerous recently?)


NPCs need to do better at communicating why they are hostile (or, indeed, friendly). That's what the Chat stuff is for. It's underutilised now ("I'm coming for you"), if not downright counterproductive ("That's the ship I'm looking for - the one with the big haul!", when you don't have any such thing).

Players need to be given the tools to see risk/difficulty in advance, eg. putting SYSTEM SECURITY on the Galaxy Map. You can see and filter on practically everything else, but not Security Level.


It's all about empowering players to tread their own path, and clearly/unambiguously communicating why things are happening around them... the consequences of decisions they took up to that point.




Slapping an EASY<->HARD slider on the universe isn't how you build a rich and engaging galaxy.

 

[Sunleader]

Difficulty sliders in an MMO is the dumbest that I can think of. It's already terrible in singleplayer games but have you every wasted one thought or two about why on earth no MMO ever had difficult sliders?

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If it ever would happen to me I'm pretty sure I would be able to draw conclusions, yeah.
If these would be the same than yours remains to be seen.

Thats the thing about Game Design.
If your Player gets Killed by something very Fast. And is Unable to Realize how that happened or how he could have Prevented it.
That means you as an Game Designer Failed. (Or well the Guys Programming Failed meaning it was a Bug and not intended to be that way)

Either case.
Its the most Frustrating Experience I ever had in this Game.



The thing is. From the Violett Tracers they had Plasma Accels.
They hit me with these Constantly on 2km away despite me having FA-Off and Squirling Around.

So I think its not an Bug. But simply that they have Increased AI Accuracy to Incredible Levels Again.
Regardless of what it was. Its very Frustrating.
Its this sort of Experience that leads to People Ragequitting and Putting bad Reviews on Steam.

 

[B1rdy]

As the guy above said, you can always downgrade your own ship to make your combat more challenging.

If that is supposed to be the solution it´s bad. A game design which makes the player take a regress in order to make a game challenging or fun is unfinished. It means the better the player gets the lesser challenge/ fun the game provides - ridicolous. Imagine a racing game which does not cater to higher skill and forces the player to add weight to his car to keep up the challenge rather than make him fiddle with the setup to squeeze out some extra hundreds of a second.

Edit:

As it stands right now, there is absolutely no motivation to continue improving my relationship with the engineers because their skills are utterly unnecessary.

Maybe thats the reason why sometimes an 'upgrade' on your module, lets say FSD-jump-range-upgrade from grade 3 to 4, 'rewards' you with worse stats, like one Ly less jump range in my case. It is more of a challenge afterwards. In this particular case 'challenge' does also mean finding a cause to continue playing this game. ;-)

 

[MarcinKsi]

thank you very much

 

[stripealipe]

The DIFFICULTY SLIDER should be on the Galaxy Map... when you choose the system destination.


NPC hostility, capability, aggression, equipment level and motivation should all come from situational cues.

- WHERE are you flying? (ie. What is the Security Level?)
- WHAT have you recently been doing? (ie. Have you crossed anyone dangerous recently?)


NPCs need to do better at communicating why they are hostile (or, indeed, friendly). That's what the Chat stuff is for. It's underutilised now ("I'm coming for you"), if not downright counterproductive ("That's the ship I'm looking for - the one with the big haul!", when you don't have any such thing).

Players need to be given the tools to see risk/difficulty in advance, eg. putting SYSTEM SECURITY on the Galaxy Map. You can see and filter on practically everything else, but not Security Level.


It's all about empowering players to tread their own path, and clearly/unambiguously communicating why things are happening around them... the consequences of decisions they took up to that point.




Slapping an EASY<->HARD slider on the universe isn't how you build a rich and engaging galaxy.

Once again, this this this please..... And i am really amazed that even though there has been plenty of positive reactions to these ideas, there has still not been enough!! This and only this is pretty much the complete solution to not only the AI being able to be sensibly scaled for ALL player skill levels, it allows you to pretty much choose where and when YOU want to engage with such NPCs.

Choose your path, carefully or not, throughout the bubble and get a sense of excitement again people! High security systems for an easy life, lower security systems for a challenge and anarchy systems for, hell!!! Tie this in with the BGS and the rewards available and we have the game we wanted.

And the AI threads can finally stop.......

 

[Riverside]

I completely agree that a gamey 'difficulty slider' wouldn't be a good solution, and that difficulty by location (high res/haz res/low res) is the right solution.

My main issue is that the 'difficulty level' was set, and in 2.1 has been changed. For the lower end of player skill where they had coping mechanisms & experience to draw from, they are forced to adapt to a new, more aggressive & frustratingly perfect AI, and at the upper end changing the meta has opened pandoras box & shown them what it could be if only all these rubbish players would just stop complaining.

Now the box has been opened the upper end will never again be happy with any reduction, at best they will be prepared to compromise by playing tic-tac-toe against twenty 10 year olds, when what they want is chess.

I'm sure it will end up being good again, time is a great healer if nothing else but for now I'm glad I can afford (in-game) to optimise every loadout for survival even if it effectively locks me out of many of my previously preferred ships & loadouts.

 

[BDelacroix]

What I would like to see is not that the AI get nerfed, but that I am not doomed to a straight line of only Elites in engineer gear for the rest of my time in Elite. Sure, its ok sometimes, but it feels like one of those games where you just face an endless horde until you just tire out. One idea, is instead of all spawned enemies being elite (I realize this is just the random encounter ones who know where you are and what you carry even before you do) they can traverse the entire range up to the player's skill level +1. Maybe even slightly more in favor of the higher ones, but not all the time.

The location spawn idea has merit.

 

[GG7]

I thought the AI balance in .02 was just about right in terms of combat and piloting behavior. The main issue that remained was Interdictions still being over the top in terms of frequency. I know a lot of this was due to Bounty Hunter traffic which was radically changed in 2.1. The solution of course for the player was to eliminate any outstanding bounties, by either riding them out, or dying in the call of duty and making a point to avoid getting scanned in any "Dormant Bounty" systems or wanted in any new system going forward.

The big question I have now after the train wreck update aka 2.1.03... is..

HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO BE FORCED TO WAIT UNTIL THE BROKEN DOCKING COMPUTER AND TURRET WEAPON MODE SWITCH ARE FIXED???

Since the AI's landing instructions are using the same code as the DC, none of them are able to land properly. When you enter one of the affected star ports you will see AI ships all sitting TO THE RIGHT of their pads with their thrusters pulsing on and off. Unable to complete the landing process due to the bug which prevents the ship from lining up with the landing reticle/target.

Meanwhile, the AI ships that have timed out their landing windows are systematically being destroyed by the station's weapon systems!

Yesterday I took a break from the game but left it running with my ship docked in the hangar bay. When I came back to the game about 20 minutes later and launched my ship, the docking bay was literally FILLED TO THE BRIM with pieces of space ship! I estimate the combined wreckage of perhaps 2 dozen ships!

So Frontier...

WHERE IS THE URGENCY HERE? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY GOING TO LET THIS GO ON FOR A WEEK OR MORE BEFORE A FIX FOR AT LEAST THE BROKEN DOCKING COMPUTER AND AI LANDING SYSTEM IS RELEASED ???? [weird]

Most of us are amazed that .03 was even released with these glaring bugs in it! It took me literally 5 minutes to identify the Docking Computer problems. The Turret Weapon Mode Switch bug about 20 minutes later. Ironically while checking out the changes to Turret behavior listed in the .03 patch notes! [squeeeee]

So... Not a single person over there at Frontier noticed the broken Docking Computer or the fact that the Turret Weapon Mode keeps getting flipped off any player made setting back to "FIRE AT WILL" every time the player uses their FSD Drive? Its not like either of these MAJOR bugs are hard to reproduce! - As I said above, I had discovered and documented BOTH of them in less than 30 minutes of launching 2.1.03 for the first time.

This is literally INSANE! [wacko]

 

[Jeep Regent]

I thought the AI balance in .02 was just about right in terms of combat and piloting behavior. The main issue that remained was Interdictions still being over the top in terms of frequency. I know a lot of this was due to Bounty Hunter traffic which was radically changed in 2.1. The solution of course for the player was to eliminate any outstanding bounties, by either riding them out, or dying in the call of duty and making a point to avoid getting scanned in any "Dormant Bounty" systems or wanted in any new system going forward.

The big question I have now after the train wreck update aka 2.1.03... is..

HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO BE FORCED TO WAIT UNTIL THE BROKEN DOCKING COMPUTER AND TURRET WEAPON MODE SWITCH ARE FIXED???

Since the AI's landing instructions are using the same code as the DC, none of them are able to land properly. When you enter one of the affected star ports you will see AI ships all sitting TO THE RIGHT of their pads with their thrusters pulsing on and off. Unable to complete the landing process due to the bug which prevents the ship from lining up with the landing reticle/target.

Meanwhile, the AI ships that have timed out their landing windows are systematically being destroyed by the station's weapon systems!

Yesterday I took a break from the game but left it running with my ship docked in the hangar bay. When I came back to the game about 20 minutes later and launched my ship, the docking bay was literally FILLED TO THE BRIM with pieces of space ship! I estimate the combined wreckage of perhaps 2 dozen ships!

So Frontier...

WHERE IS THE URGENCY HERE? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY GOING TO LET THIS GO ON FOR A WEEK OR MORE BEFORE A FIX FOR AT LEAST THE BROKEN DOCKING COMPUTER AND AI LANDING SYSTEM IS RELEASED ???? [weird]

Most of us are amazed that .03 was even released with these glaring bugs in it! It took me literally 5 minutes to identify the Docking Computer problems. The Turret Weapon Mode Switch bug about 20 minutes later. Ironically while checking out the changes to Turret behavior listed in the .03 patch notes! [squeeeee]

So... Not a single person over there at Frontier noticed the broken Docking Computer or the fact that the Turret Weapon Mode keeps getting flipped off any player made setting back to "FIRE AT WILL" every time the player uses their FSD Drive? Its not like either of these MAJOR bugs are hard to reproduce! - As I said above, I had discovered and documented BOTH of them in less than 30 minutes of launching 2.1.03 for the first time.

This is literally INSANE! [wacko]

I couldn't agree more. I've had such a bad time since June 3rd, too many bad instances, plus a failed payment transaction, to drone on about here.

I'm new to this online gaming stuff, is it normal to expect a willful nonrepsonsive customer service?

No one, it seems, can be bothered to find the time to even type out a daily brief sentence update

 

[GG7]

I couldn't agree more. I've had such a bad time since June 3rd, too many bad instances, plus a failed payment transaction, to drone on about here.

I'm new to this online gaming stuff, is it normal to expect a willful nonrepsonsive customer service?

No one, it seems, can be bothered to find the time to even type out a daily brief sentence update

Cheers!

That sucks! Sorry to hear about your other issues on top of these!

Unfortunately, this seems to be the way things go 9 times out of 10 when we have a major bug introduced in an update. Unfortunately again, this is pretty much EVERY UPDATE!

I too have never understood how Frontier can just leave the community twisting in the wind like this without so much as a "We are aware of the problem and will have a fix out as soon as we can!"

I have always wondered what all this must look like to a brand new member of the Elite community. You just spent your money to purchase the game, and you quickly discover that the game is currently BROKEN with no ETA as to when it will be fixed. If I found myself in such a situation, there would be a very high probability that I would be asking for a refund, and start looking for another game!

It really sucks because ED is actually a GREAT GAME! "When it works!". And I am sure that the folks complaining about all this like I am would love nothing better than to be singing the game's praises instead of complaining about yet another major problem. I really don't like always having to post these negative commentaries, but when I see no action being taken by the developer to remedy the current issues, I frankly don't know what else to do!

Staying silent gives the impression that I am cool with what is going on, and I am obviously not cool with it at all!

All I can say is that Frontier is playing very fast and loose with their community! There is a limit to how much of this crap each of us is willing to take. And anyone in the game industry will tell you... Once you start loosing your player base, it is VERY HARD if not IMPOSSIBLE to get those numbers back! No matter what you do down the road, for many gamers, once they leave, they ain't coming back!

I have personally NEVER returned to a game that I bailed on over stuff like this. I'm definitely one of those players who once I leave, I uninstall the game, and that is that. I'm getting closer and closer to that point with Elite, which considering how much I have enjoyed this game, is simply an indication of just how much of this we have been forced to endure over the last year or so.

 

[Martind Forlon]

... is grame crashing all the time? ... are dc and turrets sw issues which makes your play impossible? ... is not hot summer outside? ... I personally will be very unhappy if I need to lose nerves and complain about every issue I face. Some issues are solved quickly, some not, I will ofc like the most if all are not needed to solve at all (= no issues), but I'm big enough realist to know that its not possible. If play a game should have such big impact on myself to lose nerves and do me frustrated, then I better drop play and do something else.

 

[InlineSix]

Reset my second account as I do after every single change to AI.

2 hours in high res with a sidewinder. Not a single drop of sweat.

NPC are WEAKER than ever - at least vs. "harmless sidewinder" players.

So: at least no harm to newbies anymore. Who dies deserves to and hopefully learns of it.

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If play a game should have such big impact on myself to lose nerves and do me frustrated, then I better drop play and do something else.

Martind, some people do have a hard time providing time for playing whilst having a lot of fun in game IF IT WORKS.

These folks do complain a lot as I do as it's really hard to see what you're missing whilst seeing the game crash, wing not working, brainless folks killing newbies in unkillable engineered ships etc... get my point?

 

[Martind Forlon]

Martind, some people do have a hard time providing time for playing whilst having a lot of fun in game IF IT WORKS.

These folks do complain a lot as I do as it's really hard to see what you're missing whilst seeing the game crash, wing not working, brainless folks killing newbies in unkillable engineered ships etc... get my point?

... ED have many issues if you want to go and look after them. Is therefore possible complain as much as is day long. Or you can tie to this game strong sides and have fun. I myself chose to have fun and I have it despite play in open 95% of my spare play time.

Btw ... every game have ppl which have fun to kill others. Personally I think they get behind a point where are losing 95% of fun which can give them ED, but its only my personal pov. Next to this, this matter is for another discussion and in ED are more ways how to assure that you do not need care about such players.

 

[dAlexis]

Reset my second account as I do after every single change to AI.

2 hours in high res with a sidewinder. Not a single drop of sweat.

NPC are WEAKER than ever - at least vs. "harmless sidewinder" players.

WEAKER than ever - LOL!!! For sidewinder – maybe, but NOT 4 large ships with higher rating. Somebody was writing tales about engineering modules only 4 deadly & elite NPCs. TODAY was cracked by only dangerous NPC with thermal attack message.
Conda is it trading setup but not defenseless indeed according 2 prev patches
4^thmulticannon
3 3^rdlasers 2 beam, 1 pulse
2 2^ndmulticannons
A8 distributor, B8 power, 2 point defence, other – shield boosters
Light alloys, unforunatelly, but in this patch military grade is nearly the same


What usually happens when meeting anaconda & federal ship (not corvette -FAS or dropship)


1. When head 2 head meeting, my shield is max 1\3 when I throw off the opponent’s shield. And I am using boosters. Feds have A5 distributor and power, as I remember! My shield is double too.Hardcore engineering!
2. A4 cannon is hitting 2-3% hull per second. 1-2 3^rd lasers backfire crashing me nearly with same speed, sometimes faster. Hardcore engineering!
3.Because I started 2 crash the hull faster (thanks 2 double shield),NPC if flying away. Sometimes I manage 2 catch, sometimes – FSD hole in 2 km, no mind my mass lock. I like engineering very much!


If this(several lines are self-censored) “AI” 4 large ships will remain the same, I’ll simply vote by my money. By the way, I can’t spend it, because Anaconda bobbhead was unavailable 4 Russia... High level AI needed to be fixed too. Why was it touched? Workable - do not touch!

 

[idahosurge]

Since the latest update I still think that the NPC's are still to powerful.

This is suppose to be a game and games are suppose to be fun to play. It is not fun never engaging in combat since most of the time you can not win.

I was only able to take down a Viper because two Sys Security ships jumped in. I know how to fly and this is not right, a Vulture should be able to take down a NPC Viper any day and do it without to much work. I could not even get a Cobra's shields down, again this is just not right. A Vulture should be able to take down a Cobra any day of the week and do it without to much work.

I am Elite so every time I get interdicted it is by an Elite NPC and this is garbage. Combat in any form is not fun. Doing missions is not fun since you are just waiting to get interdicted and then have to run since more than likely you can not win a fight.

I know how to fly so don't bother telling me what I am doing wrong. If you want more of a challenge then get in a smaller ship and go take on wings of other ships.

 

[InlineSix]

WEAKER than ever - LOL!!! For sidewinder – maybe, but NOT 4 large ships with higher rating.

Please be aware that the Conda is a wonderful ship - but not made of magic unicorn poop.

Imagine this would be real: Would you engage 4 fighter (!) craft with a single trader multi role ship?

Seriously: Paying a lot of money for a ship doesn't mean it's capable of killing 4 opponents.

You would have a better time fighting the 4 ships in a mediocre 12 million credit Vulture than in your big yacht. Think about it.

To make things better: Forget your boosters. They're only good once. Sacrifice a bit of cargo and get ONE shield cell bank, B class, size of your shields minus one. Pack heat sinks. You won't get killed again by NPC in your conda.

Fight them. Fire 4 of your 5 SCB. If by then you're not down to one opponent, opt out. Simply high wake.

All deaths by NPC after the last nerfs is by wrong outfitting, relying on old fairy tales of indestructable condas or simply wrong decisions.

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Since the latest update I still think that the NPC's are still to powerful.

Although I second your opinion regarding too many interdictions being a nuisance, I strongly consider you ask someone in Ghost Legion about giving you some training. You should not have a hard time vs. a Viper whilst in a Vulture. Ask Ronin, he'll show you some neat tricks to smile about NPC being too hard, for sure.

 

[Noddie]

Seems to me a large part of the problem could be basing the AI strength on combat rank, which really is a poor guide to how skilled someone is at combat as it does not take into account how the rank was achieved (eg farming low-rank NPC).

It should be based solely on player behavior - what you're doing, where, and for who.

 

[Duedy]

Seems to me a large part of the problem could be basing the AI strength on combat rank, which really is a poor guide to how skilled someone is at combat as it does not take into account how the rank was achieved (eg farming low-rank NPC).

It should be based solely on player behavior - what you're doing, where, and for who.

Also your rank doesn't decrease if you get blown up, so that you have a chance to reach your level and when you rebuy you get a drop in rank so you are ok again. Rather than current hit the skilled AI wall wherever that point is for each player and just constantly rebuy till your bankrupt or restart from scratch. Which in this game could be months or years of progress just lost to 1 ranking system