News NPC AI update
- Thread starter Zac Antonaci
- Start date
Forget the AI NOT EVERBODY WANTS TO BE A COMBAT PILOT
Try playing the game. They are doing something about it
They just aren't saying anything, yet.Try playing the game. They are doing something about it
That's something I don't understand. Where is the problem to say "we heard you and working on it, unfortunately we don't know how long it will take"? If you adress a problem and don't get ANY answer, that's something which makes you angry as you feel ignored. A short comment that the problem is adressed doesn't cost anything, but shows you care. Not a good trouble management by FDEV in my opinion.
Because actions speak louder than words?. Still waiting for the words of course, but keep checking the game, see if it's improved for you.
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Have you raised a ticket?
Sure it does. I am also willing to wait, but I think it would cool down some discussions a bit. Time will tell
The damage to my ship has gone up 300% simply due to the AI aiming on target now, while before they didnt (that much). Sometimes the enemy just sit there are dont move as you both unload all your power at each other in stalemate, or it rams you, causing both parties lots of damage. Even with boosted shields and 5 enhanced boosters, I still feel quite vulnerable, and only the best mods will cope with that; but then I only get interdicted by the best ships anyway who have the best shields, thrusters etc. In fact its all Anacondas and FDLs who are interdicting me. A cobra could kill me to death in my corvette right now, so in a way I am glad the interdiction system is broken.
As we always say, Elite Dangerous is meant to be Dangerous, and up until 2.1 it was NOT. I dont want the AI to kill me to death with reverse thrusts I have not learned myself yet, and feel duped. But I welcome the fact they do aim on target, and thats a good thing.
Before 2.1, it was easy to strip down a ships shields and destroy a large ship in seconds. Think about how hard the AI would get if they could do the same thing to you! You'd be massacred - just like we used to do to them.
As we always say, Elite Dangerous is meant to be Dangerous, and up until 2.1 it was NOT. I dont want the AI to kill me to death with reverse thrusts I have not learned myself yet, and feel duped. But I welcome the fact they do aim on target, and thats a good thing.
Before 2.1, it was easy to strip down a ships shields and destroy a large ship in seconds. Think about how hard the AI would get if they could do the same thing to you! You'd be massacred - just like we used to do to them.
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The NPCs still have engineered weapons as every other attack with is an Anaconda with a thermal attack weapon. Travelling in wing with another Imp Cutter A'ed out and we are still being battered with over aggressive NPC. You can't mine, or trade without a constant stream of attacks. Coming Developers sort this out the game is unplayable .... again
Exactly. It's a matter of balancing the game mechanics.
Fair comment.
As has been said before; yes, it's a matter of balance.It would be a good thing for Elite NPC pilots to behave like they're actually Elite - that is logical and no one would dispute that.
But the piece of logic everyone (traders, pew-pewers, and "git gud"ers alike) should be agreeing on is this :
It simply is not statistically credible to have so many high ranked NPCs in the galaxy.
The logic is the same, whether your leaning is towards Sims or Arcade or full-on MMORPG : low skilled opponents should be common, but highly skilled opponents should be rare.
Because that's how things work you see. If something is not common, it's exceptional. You have the rule, the 'norm'...and you have the 'exception'. By definition exceptional is not common.
If every other ship we encounter in Elite is ranked Dangerous, Deadly or Elite (which seems to be what a lot of Cmdrs are complaining about right now), then it makes a mockery of the fact exceptional skills are supposed to be exceptional. You may as just shift the skill descriptions to accommodate the disproportionate numbers by making "Competent" into "Harmless" and "Deadly" into "Competent" because they're so common.
THAT'S what's at the heart of the issue here - 90% of the NPCs we face should be ranked no higher than Expert, because even "Experts" in any field are rare. And anything higher than an expert should be incredibly rare.
If you insist on giving AI opponents low ammo count items like shield cells, chaff and missiles, you need to turn off their infinite ammo cheating now.
And conflict zone Elite AIs are a bit extreme now. They take next to no damage.
I also don't think AI should be capable of hitting with a PA at 2000m while performing a spinning turn. No human could ever pull this off.
And conflict zone Elite AIs are a bit extreme now. They take next to no damage.
I also don't think AI should be capable of hitting with a PA at 2000m while performing a spinning turn. No human could ever pull this off.
Dialing down AI/NPC's interdiction capabilities may also help with balancing game mechanics.
I'd have to agree with you on the Ammo & seemingly perfect aim. The way the AI works (gleaned from the many recent threads here & a bit of google) it's hard to make it behave imperfectly (like a human), so it's perfect but with forced errors built in, and this ratio has either been changed, or wasn't changed & perhaps should have been to rebalance for the new more aggressive behaviour. Maybe this is being tweaked right now
Without unlimited ammo they would wake out (despawn) once they ran out. I guess this is so some NPCs fight each other as a backdrop to your own engagement, until you get around to engaging them (eg grabbing an easy 'assist' kill). I'm not bright enough to argue the toss on this point either way, but I accept that we're going to have to live with it, provided it looks believable to the player once they engage them.
Similarly, it may be that the heat model is too complex to allow the backdrop fighting to look great without them being too damaged to be a challenge by the time the player gets around to engaging them. I now suffer significant heat build-up if I fire several railgun shots, but have extremely limited heatsink ammo if I'm also to carry chaff, Point Defence & maybe a KWS on a Vulture or Python (with 4 utility slots).
I think (hope) the devs are working on this balance, that has become much more noticeable now.
I built up a Combat Python tonight, using gimballed C3 Burst Turrets on top & a pair of C2 Gimballed beams and had an easier time 'farming' (I normally use fixed) but it was disappointing to no longer be able to get a pack of greens together & dominate the instance. The current one-on-one drifts away from the pack, then 4 reds spawn in & hammer you, then after another 30 secs or so 4 greens spawn in & everyone picks an opponent. Felt much more artificial than before, like I was being played.
It's probably breaking my immersion
Another old git here - first played Elite on a C64 back in the day and found Elite Dangerous just before it went live.
I have been doing similar smuggling runs from Obsidian station in Maia before and after 2.1. Flying a Python that is well kitted out for my purpose. The only real difference I have noticed is that after the upgrade I decided to stand and fight an interdiction as I sometimes do but my shields were taking a pounding so I cowardly turned and ran! My policy in this smuggling mode now is to submit and run and I have had no trouble with this approach.
I did have trouble a while ago (before 2.1) because I didn't fully understand how load out affects your chances and was splattered a few times before I got the right idea.
I believe the key to this issue is that those in ships that do not have a good load out will not be able to withstand the interdiction well, will lose shields really quickly and will not be able to run fast enough and recharge their FSD quick enough to jump away to another system. Put more credits into getting the best ship build and you'll do better.
Have look at this Python load out video on Youtube from ShadowTracer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs29X1J_Is8 and you'll see what is needed to go forth and prosper in this release.
I have been doing similar smuggling runs from Obsidian station in Maia before and after 2.1. Flying a Python that is well kitted out for my purpose. The only real difference I have noticed is that after the upgrade I decided to stand and fight an interdiction as I sometimes do but my shields were taking a pounding so I cowardly turned and ran! My policy in this smuggling mode now is to submit and run and I have had no trouble with this approach.
I did have trouble a while ago (before 2.1) because I didn't fully understand how load out affects your chances and was splattered a few times before I got the right idea.
I believe the key to this issue is that those in ships that do not have a good load out will not be able to withstand the interdiction well, will lose shields really quickly and will not be able to run fast enough and recharge their FSD quick enough to jump away to another system. Put more credits into getting the best ship build and you'll do better.
Have look at this Python load out video on Youtube from ShadowTracer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs29X1J_Is8 and you'll see what is needed to go forth and prosper in this release.
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Why didn't the developers just tweak the old AI up a bit, then if it went wrong it would only take a small tweak to correct it, instead they ramped it up to " nuts " and have managed to divide their player base. I play on Xbox and did enjoy it, played for hours at a time, now I just hop on to see if it's got better ( as in the AI dialled down to somewhere more sensible ) and see if there's been any comment from the developers. I find that even piloting a "A" graded vulture, you'll struggle against most NPC ships, yes I fly with flight assist ( because its there and it helps me ) I shouldn't have to disable it to stand a chance against lesser ships which now out turn me. We all agree that the AI needed a bit of work but to declare that this is the direction they want to move, which they have done, shows that they're prepared to leave a great many users, which is again a shame
You do not want to use largest possible advantage in dogfight (FA-off), but “lesser ships” not that picky, so they outturn you. Fully understandable and expected.
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Many people do not want to adapt or in any way change their play style. No matter how far this play style from optimal.
It means they do not want to use advanced tactics (or ANY tactics at all).
Do not want to sacrifice that 100t cargo + SRV + collector limpets + surface scanner + God know what else on COMBAT ship to add some armor/shields.
Do not want to switch from cargo truck to combat ship for Haz-RES/CZ farming.
And naturally they expect to succeed despite all that.
The only possible way to do this is by having an overwhelming advantage in skill and/or equipment.
And because players cannot (or again do not want) to make their skills and equipment better, they ask (or more precisely – demand) for only possible solution – make NPCs so weak and helpless, so they cannot pose any threat to even the worst player on absolutely worthless ship.
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Sorry, I tried to be as polite and understanding as possible. But this thread has a lot of “I cannot play the game and don’t want to understand the rules, but I want to be a champion”.
Probably I should move away from forum for a while before I said something that I will regret. Good luck, commanders.
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I was in a the RES in Apam Napat today and earned 1.1 million credits without loosing my Vulture. Took on a Deadly Anaconda that got my hull down to 90% (before I fled and hid behind an asteroid). This is exactly how it should be: a small ship getting its butt kicked by a huge combat ship. I didn't expect to win that fight. And I wouldn't have either if 5 police Vipers didn't help me.
The new AI forces you to be alert, and to adapt. There should be easier NPCs (Mostly Harmless ranked NPCs) for people that don't want challenges.
NPCs aren't just in the game to be lobotomized pilots with little to no competitiveness and skill. They are pilots in the same universe as we are; there are mediocre pilots, good pilots and expert pilots. All must provide some challenge at their respective level.
They can't just behave like crops.
I think that given the new AI, we could finally be getting NPC wingmen for us Solo players and also bots in CQC.
The new AI forces you to be alert, and to adapt. There should be easier NPCs (Mostly Harmless ranked NPCs) for people that don't want challenges.
NPCs aren't just in the game to be lobotomized pilots with little to no competitiveness and skill. They are pilots in the same universe as we are; there are mediocre pilots, good pilots and expert pilots. All must provide some challenge at their respective level.
They can't just behave like crops.
I think that given the new AI, we could finally be getting NPC wingmen for us Solo players and also bots in CQC.
Odd. I'm seeing a lot of "I used to play, but can't now that the game has changed," not "I don't want to understand the rules." There are plenty of veterans who are getting their asses handed to them right now. That's not because they don't understand the rules. More like the rules got changed on them without notice.
As for me, I just want to play - to have fun. Combat isn't all there is to this game. It is one aspect of it. I can have fun just jumping from system to system scanning suns and planets. Forcing everyone to fit out for combat regardless of what they want to do is - well, a bit disrespectful, actually, as it minimizes the other elements that exist in the game that people enjoy.
But I also want to play and have fun! And hauling crap between system to system isn't particularly fun. Or being in an asteroid field working (yes, mining is a job, not entertainment). Before 2.1 combat was lame. Insanely lame and lobotomized. Now, I'm having fun.
Mining may not be fun for you, but there are players who do enjoy it. Ditto space trucking and exploration.
I have no issue with you enjoying combat, nor the improved AI. By all means, have fun with it!