NPC Copilots are BROKEN and here's why

I'm saying that it proprotionally hurts. And its you who is the outlier, not the regular player. Regular players are not signifcantly hurt by a small % being taken from the millions they are earning.

Yes, I'm an outlier. But almost every player posting on these forums is within the same 1% of players as me. We are all in a group that is hurt the least by this particular form of cost, and that's a bad thing from a game design standpoint. You want to welcome new players, make them have fun, and keep them here! Not penalize them and reject them!


As for good/bad mistakes, no, eject all cargo bound by default was a bad idea. We are not discussing that, stop trying to construct strawmen.

You made the argument that players should be able to make mistakes, and that mistakes are good. But clearly, there are also bad mistakes. Why is the ability to pay 48% of your income for no benefit a good mistake, one players should be able to make?

Personally, if I found I'd been losing 48% of my income without realizing it, that's not the sort of mistake that's going to make me enjoy the game and keep playing; rather it's the sort of mistake that will make me angry and more likely to quit the game. That places it in exactly the same sort of mistake category as the eject all cargo button.

Ergo, a bad mistake, and one the developers should fix.
 
Elite dangerous is a great game, which is a shame that the NPC copilot mechanic such a pain to use.

TLDR: currently the best way to use NPC pilots is to hire an expert pilot before going on a mission, and then firing him just before you turn in any profit. Thus the system is completely broken and unfun, and I proposed a few ways this can be fixed.

Contents:
- Problem analysis​
- Story 1​
- Story 2​
- Problem summary​
- Quick solutions​
- Design discussion​
- Recommended solutions​

Okay so here's a short version of my story. I built my first fighter-equipped ships and did a bit of bounty hunting. I've learned from the wiki and YouTube tutorials that the best way to do this is to hire a Harmless pilot and train him up the ranks so he'd have a smaller percentage profit share. So I hired a Harmless pilot and did a bunch of resource sites, by this point he had reach Competent rank, at which point he has a profit share of 5%. Then I decided I wanted get my own Fleet Carrier, so I had to focus more on money grinding and just left my pilot in the lounge for a bit.

Later, by chance, I read from somewhere (probably the wiki) that the copilot takes a share of ALL profits I earn regardless if they are active or not. I was like "oh ", because at that point I had already made 0.5 billion towards my target of 7 billion before I would buy the carrier. I went to check my copilot and guess what I saw.

View attachment 288659

I had paid this idiot 28 MILLION space-bucks, for doing absolutely jacksh*t, whilst being terrible at it too! (Obviously I fired him on the spot, literally as I was taking this screenshot, like, 0.5 seconds later)

And so I opened up my calculator, and calculated what I would've paid him had I reached my 7 billion savings target. I would have paid him 350 million by the time I got my own carrier. I would have paid a space idiot, whom I had to train from the ground up, 350 million space-bucks, for doing NOTHING. I would have had to spent an extra 5 hours (or more) at Robigo Mines, because a barely competent, not-even-sentient, NPC pilot was sitting in my lounge smoking space-meth.

HOW does any of this make sense?

But wait, the space- goes even deeper.

Some time later on I had got tired of the Robigo grind and decided to go and have some fun again at bounty sites. It happens I had just built my second fighter-capable ship and I wanted to test out the build, but none of my (non-existent) friends was available to help me out. So having learned from my experience, I went to the nearest spaceport to hire an Expert pilot, and was going to terminate him after I'm done hunting. After lots of heroism, dead pirates, 5 crashed fighters and 1 overheated plasma repeater that almost crashed the 6th (I know, this weapon sucks), I went to collect my vouchers. And guess what I saw.
View attachment 288661

Noticed the problem yet? Yeah you probably have. I haven't payed this space-lackey a single cent in dividends.

And so I fired her and collected the full amount of my 5 million bounty while doing the most evil space-capitalist laugh. In fact, by my calculations if your total profits for any operation (bounties, war contracts, trade, exploration etc.) is greater than 1.3 million then you profit more by hiring and then firing the Expert pilot instead of keeping her. This number halfs if you are hiring one of the non-Expert pilots. You probably know that getting 1.3 million at a piracy site is a piece of cake even in the early game, so this means you should probably always hire Expert pilots and firing them before they get paid. The downside is that you don't get to level up your pilots above Expert, which is yet another part of the problem as it puts players between a rock and a hard place.

So to sum up the problems with the current copilot system:
  • Pilots get paid a ridiculous amount for doing absolutely nothing
  • There's no point in keeping pilots and leveling them up because that becomes extremely costly extremely quickly.
In addition, players are forced to choose between:
  • Hiring Expert pilots and then firing them before collecting profit, which is mathematically the most efficient way to play, plus you get a good pilot right off the bat. But you miss out on the chance to level up pilots above Expert
  • Hiring Expert pilots and level them up. They will eat up a LOT of undeserved profits for a shorter time
  • Hiring Harmless pilots and level them up. They will eat up a LOT of undeserved profits over a longer period of time.
Conclusion: there are no fun options. Nobody wins.


So how can we begin to solve this issue? There are a few quick fixes I can think of.
  1. Pilots don't get profit share when they are not active. I'm sure most players don't mind paying their pilots so long as they actually earn their salary.
  2. A salary system, pilots get paid a weekly check like the carrier crews. Obvious solution.
  3. Pilots get trade dividends when they are switched from active to inactive. Sounds familiar? Yes this is the mechanism used for multicrew which by the way, already exist in the game! WHY are we not using the same mechanism for the same function which is already. in. the. game.??
  4. Just remove the copilot payment. Like, literally why does this payment have to exist? What purpose does it even serve? What benefit does it bring? What does it bring to the gaming experience? NOTHING. So why shouldn't it simply be removed?

Speaking of which, I want to go a bit deeper into the design and reasoning behind this copilot system. I'll start by asking the elephant's question in the room: Why do we need to pay our copilots in the first place?

Well, my dear space-elephant, my guess would be that the game designers wanted to somehow distinguish the different copilot options available, but they chose to do it in the dumbest way possible (no offense). I'm trying my best to imagine a group of game designers sitting around a table, one designer asks:
"How do we differentiate between the copilot options?"
And another designer says:
"I know! Let's PUNISH the player for hiring a copilot, and PUNISH them even more for keeping the pilot around to level them up! Moreover, we'll offer different forms of PUNISHMENT should the player choose to keep an inexperienced pilot vs. an experienced one!"
And everyone at the table claps because this is such a good idea, and they ended up putting this into the game.

... Yeah, no, none of this makes sense to me either.

But! If the problem is indeed "how to distinguish between copilot options", I have a bunch of proposals.

Solution 1: Unique piloting styles

Different copilots are more proficient at certain types of tasks and are more inclined to do things a certain way.
  • Preference: small ship -- this pilot fights better in a small size ship, making full use of its agility
  • Nimble -- good at dodging attacks and avoiding enemy's line of fire, this pilot will use boost more frequently.
  • Steady -- this pilot is accurate with fixed weapons, and can keep them on target more frequently
  • Accurate -- this pilot tries to line up shots on enemy power plant, but will fire less frequently
  • Sneaky -- this pilot makes good use of stealth mode and heat sinks to get the advantage.
  • Crippling -- this pilot prefers to focus on enemy defensive utilities such as point defenses, as well as enemy thrusters.
  • Observant -- this pilot will scan neutral ships when possible, and alert you of any dangers or opportunities

Solution 2: Unique stat buffs

Every copilot comes with a buff to the ship they're in
  • Electrician -- 1 extra power pip
  • Lens specialist -- +20% scanner range
  • Gold digger -- +50% chance to find rare asteroid deposits (or +50% range to PWA and prospector limpets)
  • Field engineer -- AFMS and repair limpet repair rate +50%
  • Blood hound -- K-W scanner and wake scanner time - 50%, interdiction angle +50%
  • Engine master -- ship top speed and boost speed +10%
  • Trickster -- ship maneuverability +20%
  • Well-connected -- black market sell price +50%
  • Family ties -- bounties and fines incurred -50%
  • Scientist -- surface scanner radius +20%
  • Xenologist -- damage against non-human vessels +10%
  • Mechanist -- FSD optimal mass +10%
  • Fuel rat -- fuel consumption -20%, fuel scoop rate +50%
  • Imperial noble -- damage to shields +10%
  • Federal officer -- damage to armor +10%
  • Renegade -- damage against authority vessels and bounty hunters +20%

Solution 3: Mix and match

Every copilot gets one trait from solution 1 and one trait from solution 2. Hunting around for the rare traits and suitable combinations should be fun.


Solution 4: Mentoring

Harmless pilots come with no traits. As you level him up you get to select new traits for him or replace old traits.


Seriously guys, you don't need a doctorate in game design to think of unique, fun, and engaging ways of distinguishing between different NPC pilot options. Which really casts doubt on what the current Frontier game design team is doing and where they are putting their energy. I can't say I'm surprised though, the quality of design for the NPC copilot mechanic seems consistent with the remarks about "ship interiors are boring" (which is a whole new rabbit hole that I won't elaborate here).

Frontier, please fix.
Indeed the price of the crew cost make it really a pain to use. How about working out a crew related new function ?
Keep the old fighter bay module (which can use when you don't have enough CR to buy another ship).
Give the crew authority drive ship like players (When you have extra CR you can buy different ship such as Vulture and put crew as a NPC wings fight for you).
And if it is possible the ship you bought for your own crew also can Engineered.
Then we can have our NPC crew wings when we do RES/CZ farm. And I'm pretty sure it will ease the pain of crew cost.
It can also make lots of fun when you mining at the resource belt. You can eqpt full mining gear and full cargo rack when the crew wings around (When the local cop not around or you are in anarchism system you don't have to worry about the NPC pirates and sacrifice cargo rack to armed military module like old days).
If FD make this happen will be save lots of guys who only solo. And will keep the lonely guys which have few friends to play such as me away from AFK.
Considering even the NPC pirates have their own wings It will be not such a difficult work to make players have their own right ?
The situation of lonely player versus wings pirates doesn't make sense and the fighter bay module were extremely lame which considering the currently crew profit share.
Simple work exchange a huge fun receiving also deal the currently embarrassed crew-hire-fire situation saved lots guys which possible AFK because of lonely.
 
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I think the simplest solutions (wich we know FD will use/do)

  • cut the hired crews payout by <75%> in the inactive state <-- this one should be as simple as a few lines of code, right? right..?
  • remove the crew share of commodity transactions
  • when crew Elite rank is achieved, stop its share of xp

My opinion... To be honest all those 3 should be easy to implement. Problem is probably the spaghetti, ehh code, in this game.


MDH
 
Yes, I'm an outlier. But almost every player posting on these forums is within the same 1% of players as me.

Citation needed.

You made the argument that players should be able to make mistakes, and that mistakes are good. But clearly, there are also bad mistakes. Why is the ability to pay 48% of your income for no benefit a good mistake, one players should be able to make?

Because the game presents you with all the information you need to know whether to do that or not. And again, hell of a strawman. To be paying 48% you would have to intentionally hire 3 Experts (and as we have acknowledged, there is no need for more than 1 at this time, and anyone who hired more than 1 would soon learn this) and they would have to train them all up to Elite.

If someone doesn't learn by that point they are doing something stupid they need wool mittens on their hands to stop themselves poking themselves in their eyes.

Basically your whole arguments are based around constructing strawmen and tilting at windmills.
 
You don't pay them for doing nothing, they do whatever you order.

The best way isn't to hire and fire Expert ones. That way you never have an Elite one. Their abilities increase noticeably in the last few grades.

The game needs more credit sinks, not less.

Don't have a pilot on your payroll if you're trying to rank up in Combat though; as mentioned they take some XPs.
 
From a gameplay flow perspective...
The slice they take is calculated at hand-in.

Now, this would be exploitable as commanders would just mark their pilot as inactive before handing it in.

The current data structures I believe don't support determining whether a crewman was active whilst you earned that particular credit. Also no indication of what their percentage slice was.

Handing in bonds or bounties for example is just a cash transaction. You earned 50m, you handed in 50m, they take their percentage.

So, given that, I understand why the current gameplay cycle works the way it does. It prevents scamming your pilots by marking them as inactive when you hand in.

I don't see an EASY solution to this that wouldn't stuff up the entire earnings cycle in game.

You can't hand them credits BEFORE hand in as you might die en route AND you've not actually earned those credits yet.

You can't accumulate a pile of 'pending' credits when they're active for a crewmember and then at hand in, pay them their due. What happens if you die and don't rebuy the crewman? Or you switch ships to one without a crew slot? What if you have TWO active crew?

It is a knotty problem and not entirely easily solvable without introducing exploits or problems.

As it stands, and given that credits are cheap to obtain, it 'works' but IT DOES seem a little unfair. However, I suspect it will remain the status quo due to the concerns with changing it raised above.
 
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How was I rude, and how is that not how it works? The NPC had zero contribution towards my main source of income, and yet I have to spend 5 hours of not actually playing the game just because he exists. Do remember that for us who don't play games 16 hours a day, 5 hours of game time means not playing any games for 3~4 days! And what do I get from this sacrifice? The option to occasionally make use of a (not even Elite yet) NPC.

The thing is I don't want to have to stick to my current scheme and basically abandoning an area of the game. I want to have access to an Elite sidekick when every now and then I go on a pirate hunt. The game doesn't have to make us choose between two bad outcomes, it's not like there's no better alternative, no. This design choice is literally causing unnecessary pain gameplay wise.
I didn't accuse you of being rude. I apologised for my own rude outburst :)

Either way, like I said, the wages I've paid my npc pilot were over thousands of hours, again, not all at once, but spaced out over several years. And I for one have no problem with that. And since it's just deducted from whatever profits as they're made, it hasn't bothered me one bit.
 
I'm probably the only one who doesn't fire their NPC crewmate. She does a good job, so she gets her cut of the rewards. ;)
I'd pay mine more if I could.

I mean she's been on call for several years now, and never once has she taken a sick day, or complained about not getting enough danger pay, or holiday overtime, or cancelled dentist appointments, or told me that she couldn't come because of a personal matter like a family birthday or funeral, or had me wait around for a few hours while she catches a taxi to the concourse...

Or complained about my tendency to pop halfway across the bubble and then remember I didn't ready a crew member.

She's just always in the pilot's lounge or in my ship, ready for action. I can't even begin to imagine the travel fees she must be paying out of her own pocket...

A more realistic system would take all of that into account, plus probably a fixed monthly fee whether the pilot is idling at a starport or ready to deploy in one of my fighters on a second's notice.

And then of course they'd also get a fixed percentage of any income that I make. It's only fair.

So how about we pay them say 5 million a month for Elite pilots, 100,000 or so for Harmless pilots, then any transportation fees if they're left at one port and picked up at another, plus danger pay for combat deployments, overtime for extended missions, holiday pay for playing on bank holidays, medical bills if the fighter or mothership takes a nasty bump, and then a fixed percentage as they're getting now, as long as they're on retainer.

Plus of course a bonus for long service and good performance. As an incentive to not just jump ship if they get a better job offer.
 
Hmm... so if you don't care about income any more, there is case for the % taken to increase as you get more credits! Nice idea! I'll suggest it to FD!
...why? just literally, WHY? There's zero reason to do that from a game design perspective. How is this supposed to make the game more fun?

Also a 10% cut is not a small cut, just think IRL, any source of income, and if someone takes away 10% of it for nothing. It's a huge cut!
 
2) Indeed, but my point is, early game, there is no need for an NPC and any you hire should be harmless and trained up, so they are only taking a few percent. If early on someone isn't doing much combat with a SLF capable ship, its too early to hire one. Later on, by the time you are thinking of needing one, then that % is not really critical. I got my first NPC as soon as they came out, and she is still with me, Elite, and this was long before i had everything. And i've never been much of one for doing get rich quick schemes. It does not cut very deep, i can say that from personal experience.
That's just not true. You're making it sound like all players are either so early game without SLF, or super late game with a carrier. But most players are in the middle, where credits are still important but they can afford SLFs. Need I remind you that the first SLF-capable ship is the Keelback which is pretty much affordable as soon as you leave the starter region?
 
It is absolutely normal practice for crews to be paid in share on a boat.

Is it normal for crews to be paid a share of the boats they are NOT on?
Like literally, in my post, I said I'm okay with giving the crew a share of whatever operation that they are part of.
 
I'm saying that it proprotionally hurts. And its you who is the outlier, not the regular player. Regular players are not signifcantly hurt by a small % being taken from the millions they are earning.

As for good/bad mistakes, no, eject all cargo bound by default was a bad idea. We are not discussing that, stop trying to construct strawmen.
I'll stop you right there. Regular players are probably not making millions (a good chunck of the player base I'd wager), and a 5~10% cut is not a small percentage.

Also, I think you need to make a clear distinction of what mistakes are acceptable.

Making mistakes in combat is okay, because when the player learns the skills of combat they get better and thus get a more rewarding experience -- Positive game experience
Making the mistake of keeping copilots is not okay, because the player is simply learning to avoid a purely punishing feature and switch to a slightly less punishing feature. -- Negative game experience.

Do you see the big difference here.
 
You pay them to be on call 100% of the time. Now FD love their RNG and I'd personally find it hilarious if there was a chance every time you asked a NPC pilot to hop on that they'd say "Sorry Boss, doing something else for a while" but I bet the forum would erupt in moans and kvetching. But at least there'd be a point to having more than one NPC then! :ROFLMAO:
Do you pay them a percentage of your entire fishing company JUST to be on call? I'm guessing not.
 
I'm probably the only one who doesn't fire their NPC crewmate. She does a good job, so she gets her cut of the rewards. ;)
I’ve trained mine up from harmless to elite He’s part of the billionaires club and I wouldn’t be without him. Invaluable for massacre and czs’. Think of them like an extra hard point Plus, provided you let the pilot take the first shot at your enemy, they also act as a very handy distraction, leaving you to do the real damage. Either that or let them fly the mothership. Outfit it with all rails/pa’s and watch them wreak havoc whilst you chill in the SLF
 
...why? just literally, WHY? There's zero reason to do that from a game design perspective. How is this supposed to make the game more fun?

Also a 10% cut is not a small cut, just think IRL, any source of income, and if someone takes away 10% of it for nothing. It's a huge cut!

You missed the joke.

However, there is a point within the point about the lack of credit sinks in the game, because every time FD tries and adds one the community implodes.
 
That's just not true. You're making it sound like all players are either so early game without SLF, or super late game with a carrier. But most players are in the middle, where credits are still important but they can afford SLFs. Need I remind you that the first SLF-capable ship is the Keelback which is pretty much affordable as soon as you leave the starter region?

By the time you're thinking of getting an NPC you can be earning more or less at the same rate as the big boys. Bounty hunting, passenger missions, mining, none of which require megabucks that can't be afforded easily and quickly these days.

At which point, a few percent isn't really going to bother you. And you're still going to be some way off getting them trained up to Elite, so it will be a while before its 10%.
 
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