NPC Crew Gender / Skill Level update - No bias found

[Adhock]

The people who are so eager to dismiss this topic as nonsense and shut down the conversation should try to remember that.

I dismissed it because of bad science.

I showed it to a friend of mine who is far better at math then I am.

I could hear her screaming in pain and agony ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COUNTRY.

And we live on the opposing coast lines.

When you present bad evidence, you set a bad prescient.

I left notes explaining why the data gathered was bad and didn't support the outcome of her accusation. I invited her to change my mind.

In the meantime I had to deal with haughty behavior of people looking down their noses and telling me and others who disagreed with the findings that we were all kinds of evil monsters and that we were everything wrong with the world.

I certainly was not going to take that lying down.

Frankly I've had enough of my Kindness being mistaken for Weakness.

I gave the opportunity to change my mind. It was squandered and I firmly remain rooted in the stance I had before this started. These new findings simply vindicate my original point of bad data corrupting the findings and resulting in yet another cry of 'Wolf'.

Now I have to watch as the community that once centered around Elite and un/enjoyment of such is infested by rampant decaying of brain matter.

The demonization of the actions of Frontier has already started. As far as I'm concerned it's a declaration of war.

Because if you have through this through to it's logical conclusion, here's the ending if you insist on pushing a fight that was over decades ago.

Frontier is based in the UK.

The UK has already made Thought Crimes a federal offence. People are facing jail time for misinterpreted twitter posts.

If you push this pointless fight, people at Frontier may end up facing jail time. Artists, coders, Devs, management, community leaders.

Explain to me how the hell you expect Elite to survive if the very people who bring it to life are doing 10-15 because you convinced a corrupted judiciary system of Frontier's guilt of the thought crime of unconscious bias?

Did you think that far?

You want a war? I'm going to fight for Frontier and Elite's survival. I'm going to say what Frontier can't because I'm free to speak.

I made a clear argument against the bad data and it was dismissed because I'm the monster that needs to be killed. I was proven right and people still consider me the monster that needs to be killed.

If my argument based around facts, observations, and improvements is dismissed because of frenzied zealotry. I weep for the death of critical thinking. It's such a rare skill these days.

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

Is this post actually for real?

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

The gender implications of the use of 'Sir' in a command structure aboard ships both military and civilian have long since been eradicated.

It is meant to demonstrate respect from a subordinate to a superior REGARDLESS OF GENDER.

...snip

That is only true if you are not looking for something to be offended about and wanting to flex your moral highground muscles that these days are so enabled.

(runs a way trying to avoid the stick and stones)

 

[Marklar_]

Explain to me how the hell you expect Elite to survive if the very people who bring it to life are doing 10-15 because you convinced a corrupted judiciary system of Frontier's guilt of the thought crime of unconscious bias?

I give this a 10/10 for going over the deep end.

No wonder you're angry, your imaginary world is terrible. Come join us in reality, and calm down, the world isn't ending just yet.

 

[Susanna]

Well, in my country's 21st Century armed forces, people say "sir" to male superior officers and "ma'am" to female superior officers.

Up till now (male bias acknowledged) the fact that my SLF pilots call me "sir" hasn't struck me as odd, but now it will.

How about it, FD? There is already something in the options menu - I can't quite remember exactly where - which allows you to specify your commander's gender. Why not change the script for the voice actors accordingly?

Women may represent a small fraction of the player base, but I for one would welcome that

In the Star Trek Universe all superiors are referred to as "Sir." Nuff said

Errr and how exactly does that make it right? Star Trek is simply a reflection of what social norms are currently, we tend to project our cultural norms forwards in such programs. Look back on the original Star Trek series with a gender equality hat on and you'll notice it was a whole different world then. Unfortunately, some of that has been written into the Cannon of Star Trek and being called Sir is one of them. Star Trek Voyager did try to fix this... Janeway was called Ma'am...

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;sk2bYIhaf0Y]https://youtu.be/sk2bYIhaf0Y[/video]

 

[Susanna]

I would like to petition FD for equality among hired pilots, so that they might reduce the overwhelming majority of current or previous meth addicts.

LoL... Lordy knows what new drugs will be around in 3304... Onionhead anyone?

 

[Susanna]

It was silly for you to even think that there might have been a bias. Nobody in their right mind would go through the trouble of hard coding a bias into the game. If there was any, it would simply be how the NPC dialogue affected your ability to get in the zone and play better- Nothing more. The data shows that you usually play better while hearing male voice patterns. So if you really want to rerun your tests, I suggest you do it with the volume off.

Sorry but I didn't follow any of that. Could you try saying that again please?

 

[Chris Simon]

It was silly for you to even think that there might have been a bias. Nobody in their right mind would go through the trouble of hard coding a bias into the game. If there was any, it would simply be how the NPC dialogue affected your ability to get in the zone and play better- Nothing more. The data shows that you usually play better while hearing male voice patterns. So if you really want to rerun your tests, I suggest you do it with the volume off.

She did it as a response to a very silly recent thread that claimed exactly that.

 

[Jack Schitt]

I dismissed it because of bad science.
[...]
Explain to me how the hell you expect Elite to survive if the very people who bring it to life are doing 10-15 because you convinced a corrupted judiciary system of Frontier's guilt of the thought crime of unconscious bias?

Wow. I think that might be the first time I've mentally invoked the "that escalated quickly" meme within a single post.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

If you remove the real world sources of whatever this projecting sexist (or any unconstructive) views on you, you find that greater society actually isn't that bad. Its usually localised to a few rotten apples.

I used that trick myself when refactoring some of my own attitudes recently.

In the case you were just trying to get attention to yourself with a controversial topic there's probably better help somewhere else.

 

[Susanna]

I've noticed how quite a few people get real touchy when the existence of sexism or racism is hinted at. "Go away! It isnt true! You're just stirring up trouble! You have an agenda! Whatever we're doing is a tradition!". Rarely an actual argument is presented against whatever is being said. It basically just keeps boiling down to:"Go away, I like how stuff is now!"

In this case: Sorry for not getting back to you sooner Susanna, but I am quite sure you forgot to check the assumptions required for doing an ANOVA. Your groups here is 'skill', at five different levels. Your dependent variable is 'sex', at two values. You need a continuous dependent variable for ANOVA, whereas it is categorical here. If you want to use ANOVA: use 'sex' as category, 'skill' as a continuous variable and throw all participants in one pool rather than separating per rank. Which would still be somewhat... unconventional but hey.

Hi Sleutelbos, please forgive me if my stats is no where near the level that yours is. I am NOT an expert at all in this field. By all means reprocess my data if you are more knowledgeable than me. My stats was never great and I've not dipped into it in any serious way for decades now so it's all but totally useless! I was simply trying to do the best I could with it. The point I wanted to get over though is that further data points tend to support the argument that there is no gender bias and it's all just RNG. I hope that was at least apparent even if my stats was a mess.

 

[two quiet suns]

Science! Nice one OP!

 

[Stealthie]

Star Trek Voyager did try to fix this... Janeway was called Ma'am...

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/sk2bYIhaf0Y

Nope, nope nope.

In the first couple of episodes they made quite a point of the fuss over gender neutrality, with Harry Kim and Tom Paris getting confused over whether to call her "Ma'am" or "Sir".
In the end she just told them to address her by her rank; "Captain" - which seems like the no-brainer solution.

I guess some of the writers didn't get the memo' and the audience should assume that anybody who calls her "Ma'am" was just making a mistake but Janeway's relaxed enough not to make a fuss about it.

 

[Susanna]

Good on the OP for having the integrity to update this. [up]

It would have been easy to treat the previous topic as a "thread bomb" and then just slope away thinking "My work here is done!"

Also, to all the people who's saying "Y'see, this is all in your head and you were just displaying a toxic ideology", I gotta say that I didn't get that from the previous thread at all.
To me, it just seemed like the OP had noticed a trend and was trying to discuss it objectively.
Sometimes the RNG is weird like that, I guess.

More subjectively, I wonder why it seems to be easier for the game to generate human-looking male characters than female?
Seems like most of the male characters look fairly normal whereas normal-looking female characters are rare as hen's teeth.

Thanks Stealthie

I agree with you on the male avatars being more 'realistic' than the female ones. Curious that one. Many of the female avatars just look 'wrong' to me. I can't really say 'how they are wrong' either, other than saying most look androgynous at best. Some look like they have been through a meat grinder lol! I think the male avatars look a lot more convincing though than their female counter parts [no agenda here... It's just an observation!]

 

[Rubbernuke]

What data are you all looking at? There is horrific gender bias in Elite, that is truly shocking.

What am I talking about? The Thargoids. Every Interceptor is female, all deadly experts with no males. Its disgusting I tell you, disgusting!

I'm going to write a strongly worded letter about this outrage to FD this minut....whats that?

Whats that sound?

...
...

*faint clicking sounds*
...

Don't eat me! I didn't mean it! Agggggghhhh!

munching sounds

burp

 

[crushdepth]

Women may represent a small fraction of the player base, but I for one would welcome that



Errr and how exactly does that make it right? Star Trek is simply a reflection of what social norms are currently, we tend to project our cultural norms forwards in such programs. Look back on the original Star Trek series with a gender equality hat on and you'll notice it was a whole different world then. Unfortunately, some of that has been written into the Cannon of Star Trek and being called Sir is one of them. Star Trek Voyager did try to fix this... Janeway was called Ma'am...

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/sk2bYIhaf0Y

The meaning of words changes over time. The word 'sir' no longer has a gender implication in a military context (for the US, anyway). Does that make it wrong? Or does it mean that your own perceptions of the word are specific to the culture of a particular country or context?

FD generally use the general-neutral 'Commander' to refer to players. The avatars look so BAD that I suspect it was actually a deliberate design decision to avoid sexualising the game. If the odd 'sir' has slipped through here or there in the voice acting or whatever, I don't think they need to apologise for it.

 

[Susanna]

If you remove the real world sources of whatever this projecting sexist (or any unconstructive) views on you, you find that greater society actually isn't that bad. Its usually localised to a few rotten apples.

I used that trick myself when refactoring some of my own attitudes recently.

In the case you were just trying to get attention to yourself with a controversial topic there's probably better help somewhere else.

Believe me when I say that I have considered (at length) who I am and I am not one to seek attention for its own sake, quite the reverse.

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;M2ufC2OtH28]https://youtu.be/M2ufC2OtH28[/video]

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Believe me when I say that I have considered (at length) who I am and I am not one to seek attention for its own sake, quite the reverse.

And i honestly didn't assume either way, was just hedging my reply as the internet

 

[GunnerBill]

More subjectively, I wonder why it seems to be easier for the game to generate human-looking male characters than female?
Seems like most of the male characters look fairly normal whereas normal-looking female characters are rare as hen's teeth.

Could that not be a bit of a minefield in itself?

Casting aside the general ugliness of all the NPC pilots I've seen how would you define a normal female?

Classically you'd think (I'd think) things like longer hair or simply a feminine style, perhaps more make-up, a curvier figure etc... then of course you open your company up into accusations of gender stereotyping (you've made them all Barbie!).

Personally I don't think this is the case as the female avatars in the mission boards etc can be quite stylish. My personal view on this is that FD probably decided that pilots are all going to be ugly and that pilots don't do style. And that might make it easier for the RNG to work.

 

[crushdepth]

Good on the OP for having the integrity to update this. [up]

It would have been easy to treat the previous topic as a "thread bomb" and then just slope away thinking "My work here is done!"

Also, to all the people who's saying "Y'see, this is all in your head and you were just displaying a toxic ideology", I gotta say that I didn't get that from the previous thread at all.
To me, it just seemed like the OP had noticed a trend and was trying to discuss it objectively.
Sometimes the RNG is weird like that, I guess.

More subjectively, I wonder why it seems to be easier for the game to generate human-looking male characters than female?
Seems like most of the male characters look fairly normal whereas normal-looking female characters are rare as hen's teeth.

In my opinion they are equally ugly and the lot of them have got heads like a busted sausage.