NPC "infinite" chaff issue?

[Greyza Badger]

Please do not spread false informatiom.
I have evidence to the contrary that this is not possible.

If you have proof please provide your evidence along with your support ticket.

Thank you

So, once and for all, put a stop to this.
Post the evidence. The evidence that says the NPCs have absolutely zero advantage over players when it comes to spamming chaff, SCBs, ammo, heat management, power distribution, maneuvering and a whole host of other issues because lots of folks don't believe that to be the case.
There isn't enough tin-foil to go around, so there must be something in their concerns.

 

[YinYin]

There isn't enough tin-foil to go around, so there must be something in their concerns.

There is a lot to it and I think I've covered most of it with my last post.

 

[Bond00789lol]

Yes, it's a very common tactic to pack at least two launchers for constant coverage.

Same as Kerrash.

I have managed to make NPCs run out of SCBs, chaff, missiles and rail gun ammo (all of that takes a long time - you are more likely to win, lose or flee).

The only thing they are officially supposed to have infinite ammo of are multi cannons, however similar to players I suspect they currently also have infinite cannon and plasma accelerator ammo.



Additionally elite NPCs may have modified modules (only modified weapons were removed from them post 2.1). Which can give them higher wep capacity/recharge and other things.

Also, while they do not seem to care about their heat levels at all (firing lots of weapons and banks without heat sinks), their modules do take heat damage (check all sub targets - the more they have the more it gets spread out).



They usually fail to provide proof. (apart from someone recently correctly counting too many cannon shots after rail guns ran out - which is true for players as well right now)

Just because a huge stack feels infinite to you doesn't mean it is if you don't count it. And even then all you can manage is discovering that they used more than a normal clip should have, which still technically isn't infinite

whats the threshold for module malfunction due to heat damage? That's my main concern. I guess I'll have to record a full fight then and just let them burn to 0% to prove a point.

 

[YinYin]

whats the threshold for module malfunction due to heat damage? That's my main concern. I guess I'll have to record a full fight then and just let them burn to 0% to prove a point.

You start taking module damage at 100% heat, increasingly more as heat rises above that (and hull damage at the next threshold marked on the HUD, 200% I think). I don't know the exact correlation though. And as mentioned: having more modules will allow the heat damage to spread further. It's also worth noting that module integrity plays a huge part in this. If an NPC is running all B grade modules, they will be able to take a lot of damage.

 

[Bond00789lol]

You start taking module damage at 100% heat, increasingly more as heat rises above that (and hull damage at the next threshold marked on the HUD, 200% I think). I don't know the exact correlation though. And as mentioned: having more modules will allow the heat damage to spread further. It's also worth noting that module integrity plays a huge part in this. If an NPC is running all B grade modules, they will be able to take a lot of damage.

The questions is at what % of module damage will they start experiencing malfunction, as in a 40% SCB will fail to fire several times before it pops off. I haven't seen them effected by this the same way players are. They continue full burning well below 30% life left on modules.

 

[YinYin]

The questions is at what % of module damage will they start experiencing malfunction, as in a 40% SCB will fail to fire several times before it pops off. I haven't seen them effected by this the same way players are. They continue full burning well below 30% life left on modules.

Ah, that. I think it's different per module. Malfunctions start to happen randomly at a certain threshold. A specific example I know well enough (that seems to be the same for Players and NPCs) is the cargo hatch: it will start to malfunction at 75% damage. And it requires taking further damage to malfunction again. If other modules malfunction in similar ways it may be beneficial to not drop them down very fast, but gradually, to maximise malfunctions.

Another one that I certainly know behaves the same for NPCs (because I tested it), is the life support. That one only simply goes offline at 0%, at which point the pilot has however long the equipped grade lasts left (the NPC blew up after 5 minutes - so it was an E).

Generally a lot of modules can keep working fine at low % if they don't take further damage.

 

[mbar]

They definitely have infinite chaff.

Pretty sure they have infinite ammo and SCBs also. Honestly, the same mechanic probably governs all of the above. So, its all pretty broken.

What bothers me most though, is the NPCs don't seem to be subject to capacitor drain or heat.

I have seen ships fire more PAs and rail guns than their weapons capacitor could ever be capable of without recharging. THAT made me a little mad.

I am all for pushing the limits of AI skill. But making them more "skilled"by allowing them to break the rules is lazy programming

+ rep. This is my main grip with the AI. They need to at LEAST appear to follow the same heat management rules and weapons cool downs as we do.

 

[Bond00789lol]

Ah, that. I think it's different per module. Malfunctions start to happen randomly at a certain threshold. A specific example I know well enough (that seems to be the same for Players and NPCs) is the cargo hatch: it will start to malfunction at 75% damage. And it requires taking further damage to malfunction again. If other modules malfunction in similar ways it may be beneficial to not drop them down very fast, but gradually, to maximise malfunctions.

Another one that I certainly know behaves the same for NPCs (because I tested it), is the life support. That one only simply goes offline at 0%, at which point the pilot has however long the equipped grade lasts left (the NPC blew up after 5 minutes - so it was an E).

Generally a lot of modules can keep working fine at low % if they don't take further damage.

weapons, heat sinks, SCB, chaff - all function perfect under 30%? You don't have to agree, I've apparently found different results than you have. Or perhaps I'm just dumb and need some tin foil.

 

[YinYin]

weapons, heat sinks, SCB, chaff - all function perfect under 30%? You don't have to agree, I've apparently found different results than you have. Or perhaps I'm just dumb and need some tin foil.

Easy there, you ain't dumb. I said:

I think it's different per module. [...] Generally a lot of modules can keep working fine at low % if they don't take further damage.

I know weapons and other things you have to actively fire will malfunction upon use when they have taken damage. But I gotta admit I don't often deal with damage to the smaller modules myself (neither on my own nor the target ship).

I can certainly see fire malfunctions possibly not working for NPCs as I've never tested that.

edit: there must be someone around here with some clear insights on NPC heat damage considering how popular heat weapons are right now

 

[Bond00789lol]

Easy there, you ain't dumb. I said:



I know weapons and other things you have to actively fire will malfunction upon use when they have taken damage. But I gotta admit I don't often deal with damage to the smaller modules myself (neither on my own nor the target ship).

I can certainly see fire malfunctions possibly not working for NPCs as I've never tested that.

common ground at last! I just think it's worth looking into. When that heat damage gets dispersed through all modules, slowly but surely, those groups- weps, chaff, SCB, heat sinks eventually get low enough to where if I used them, I'd have consistent malfunction. What I'm saying is I've never seen their fight capabilities diminished by it at low %. Which may just be my ignorance of how the module malfunction for those specific modules works, but I know for me, I'd be a sitting duck. Not to mention my FSD would be like a 1 in 20 shot of charging to escape.

 

[tafkabb]

My fixed weapons love chaff

 

[tafkabb]

They do.

 

[Kyennamo]

With all due respect to everyone involved, NPCs DO, i repeat DO have infinite chaff. A friend and I did some testing this evening.

We were able to empirically prove Beyond any doubt that NPCs do in fact have unlimited chaff.

We took a Viper Mark 3 that had a single chaff launcher and toyed with it for 15 minutes. After roughly 25 chaff we were satisfied with the results and destroyed it. Yes we videoed it. No I will not post it.

I'm sure everyone will say pics or it didn't happen. Personally I don't care. Take my word for it or test it yourself. I promise, given patience, you will find the exact same results.

Edit: After they use 10 chaff they may wait a few minites, but they WILL chaff again

 

[YinYin]

Edit: After they use 10 chaff they may wait a few minites, but they WILL chaff again

My tests must've ended during that wait then. Damn their access to chaff synthesis!

Chaff doesn't have infinite ammo like some other things for players currently, right (not using it atm)?