Nvidia 3070, 3080 rtx. no excuse for VR removal, discuss.

[[VR] Mad Mike]

VR support does not make it a VR game.

It does when you sell it on a VR only gamestore and use the tag "built for VR". (And deleting comments years after the fact should not mean FD should get to wash their hands of it imo)

Look I get it you can still play the game as you like and for you VR may be a nice to have but not essential feature but please don't try to change history.
FD can do what they want but it doesn't mean those who are miffed don't have a valid reason to be.

 

[Arioch]

Elite Dangerous without VR existed before Elite Dangerous with VR.

Yes it did, but not in a playable version to us mere mortals unless I’m mistaken.

Oculus Rift support was announced in Oct 2013:

Update 54: Elite: Dangerous will support Oculus Rift · Elite: Dangerous

Great news that we know many of you have been hoping for – today we’re announcing that Elite: Dangerous will support Oculus Rift. We’re very excited by this and if you aren’t aware of what Oculus Rift is then visit their website to find out more:http://www.oculusvr.com/I’m sure you’ll also be...

www.kickstarter.com

...and was added for Alpha-backers in Dec 2013, shortly into the Alpha period - and only the Oculus Rift Dev Kit was available at the time.

 

[Harley001]

That will be the Oculus Store.

VR was mentioned in the campaign as a “nice to have” platform to bring the game to, and was officially confirmed in one of the post-campaign updates.

Old store pages used to feature a “built for VR” tag - they disappeared before last year’s Odyssey announcement.

Here is what I found.

Elite Dangerous is designed from the ground up to support Virtual Reality and 4K Ultra HD display technology. It has Cutting-edge visual quality and performance enabled by Frontier's COBRA engine. It supports the latest displays at 4K resolution, and is built for the future with full 8K and 16K support.

Frontier said you'll still be able to fly your ship in VR with all the same features as before. Elite is not a VR game, it supports VR. I don't think "It was on the oculus store" is a good argument. On the steam store I can search the "VR games" section and it shows games like War Thunder, Subnautica, The Forest, and still Elite Dangerous with the tag clearly listed as "VR supported". Also they put "Elite Dangerous" and "Elite Dangerous Horizons" on the oculus store. They didn't put Odyssey on that store. Guess what, if Horizons bothers me a lot, I can play vanilla elite and never see a ground mission. If the leg stuff bothers you too much you can choose to play Horizons and never touch Odyssey, the games people saw and bought on those store pages still exist and are unchanged. Because even if your not playing Odyssey, you'll still be able to interact with Odyssey players when they are in their ships.

Also I have played a few games and mods for games which tried to use the whole "Stick the VR camera to your head and let you use it to look around" IT DOES NOT WORK. It's extremely off putting having a fixed camera from a VR perspective unless your staring at a screen (I've played a few FPS games in VR desktop just to try it out, it works). Giving you a free look VR mode inside a vehicle is not the same as shoving that onto a human character that is going to be moving in a very different way. As a few other people mentioned, the devs are not going to rush in a VR feature if it's going to be terrible, they would get more flak for having a awful feature/mechanic in their game rather than just leaving it out.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

My son is a professional programmer, also for VR applications. You can bet I've tried it, but when it comes to ED I only had the opportunity to check it out on his ED installation. Since he isn't interested in Elite, he has no proper flight controllers and so this session end up statically on a landing pad in a Coriolis station. Enough to understand what people find so fascinating about VR, but also enough not to want to play like that for more than half an hour. And I usually play several hours a day. I've also played a few demos in VR - fascinating for a few moments but on the long run not my thing.

That said, I guess I will be in with the next generation of VR devices, once they are affordable. I assume they will be lighter and much more comfortable. There are some interesting and promising prototypes in development, from what my son has told me...

Well, I've not been able to play VR in the last few weeks due to having to keep tabs on my puppy, but my typical VR playtimes with E: D were 2-4 hour sessions, with occasional eye breaks, so even with current gen devices, it's more than possible to play in VR for 'several hours a day'.

 

[B1rdy]

Here is what I found.

Elite Dangerous is designed from the ground up to support Virtual Reality and 4K Ultra HD display technology.

I am not sure, if I would make a technical discussion based on PR speak. Nevertheless, here is your answer:

Source: https://youtu.be/vN2BWY872M8?t=536

tl;dr is, they added VR support in Dec 2013 and it was clearly not designed for VR "from the ground up". As David explains text was hard to read as menues were designed for high definition displays.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I am not sure, if I would make a technical discussion based on PR speak. Nevertheless, here is your answer:

Source: https://youtu.be/vN2BWY872M8?t=536

tl;dr is, they added VR support in Dec 2013 and it was clearly not designed for VR "from the ground up". As David explains text was hard to read as menues were designed for high definition displays.

I agree of course it wasn't built from the ground up for VR. This was just marketing nonsense. But it was sold as built for VR and sold of a VR only store (actually I wonder.... Some Oculus games will run out of VR if you force it but some won't. I am not even sure if the Oculus version supports flat screen or not)

But regardless of the technical truth of how much work "Greg" did, users who bought the VR version because of the marketing from FD are not wrong to feel a little misssold.

 

[Bob McBobblehead]

The RTX 3070 and RTX 3080 are imaginary cards, because you can't even buy one.

 

[Harley001]

I agree of course it wasn't built from the ground up for VR. This was just marketing nonsense. But it was sold as built for VR and sold of a VR only store (actually I wonder.... Some Oculus games will run out of VR if you force it but some won't. I am not even sure if the Oculus version supports flat screen or not)

But regardless of the technical truth of how much work "Greg" did, users who bought the VR version because of the marketing from FD are not wrong to feel a little misssold.

But they are wrong. Because no one was misled or missold (is that a word?). You bought Elite Dangerous and Elite Dangerous Horizons, which had VR headset support. Those games will STILL have VR support and will still function and exist as they did before. Odyssey never said it would support VR. What you paid for is not being changed, new content that is being added will not have proper support for VR.

You can choose to never play or purchase this new content, the old Elite Dangerous content will still be there, nothing is being taken away from you. The features promised on the old store page are still in the game. They never promised there would new VR features.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

But they are wrong. Because no one was misled or missold (is that a word?). You bought Elite Dangerous and Elite Dangerous Horizons, which had VR headset support. Those games will STILL have VR support and will still function and exist as they did before. Odyssey never said it would support VR. What you paid for is not being changed, new content that is being added will not have proper support for VR.

You can choose to never play or purchase this new content, the old Elite Dangerous content will still be there, nothing is being taken away from you. The features promised on the old store page are still in the game. They never promised there would new VR features.

Ok so if the shoe was in the other foot and the steam version was being depricated and the Oculus version was going to have ED:O and it be VR only you would be fine with that because you only ever expected to have ED:H . Ok then fair enough. I think you are in a minority however. Personally I think those who don't see VR as core to their gameplay are looking at it as "I am ok so sucks to be you" and shoe on other foot would be v dissapointed. Perhaps that isn't you and you are not being a hypocrite.

 

[Arioch]

Elite is not a VR game, it supports VR...

Also I have played a few games and mods for games which tried to use the whole "Stick the VR camera to your head and let you use it to look around" IT DOES NOT WORK. It's extremely off putting having a fixed camera from a VR perspective unless your staring at a screen (I've played a few FPS games in VR desktop just to try it out, it works). Giving you a free look VR mode inside a vehicle is not the same as shoving that onto a human character that is going to be moving in a very different way. As a few other people mentioned, the devs are not going to rush in a VR feature if it's going to be terrible, they would get more flak for having a awful feature/mechanic in their game rather than just leaving it out.

If you say it’s not a VR game, cool, you’re perfectly correct and I’ll carry on playing one of my favourite VR games in VR

I’m not sure which games you are saying the head camera DOES NOT WORK for, but I think Alien: Isolation and Subnautica VR would probably fit that description - and I would heartily disagree with a broad smile upon my face, those two being absolutely awesome VR experiences

Having messed around with the on-foot vanity cam this morning, I hope FDev would be open to implementing a SubnauticaVR-style control method - standing under those skies today, phew! I’d like some more, please

 

[Harley001]

Ok so if the shoe was in the other foot and the steam version was being depricated and the Oculus version was going to have ED:O and it be VR only you would be fine with that because you only ever expected to have ED:H .

Your describing a game with VR support going from "VR supported" to "VR Only". Because VR players can still play odyssey, they are not being cut off from the game. What your proposing would be cutting off none-vr players from the game. If you can play Elite in VR, you can play Elite without VR, your scenario implies that VR players won't have access to Odyssey, they will. In your hypothetical, Frontier would be saying "The future of elite will not include none-vr players, if you want to take part in future expansions, you need to pay at least $300 for a head set your computer might not support." versus "VR will not be supported for these parts of the game".

Every elite VR player can take their headset off, most none-VR players can't just buy a VR headset or they probably would have done so. Your comparison isn't the same thing, the current version of Odyssey isn't excluding anyone. Your scenario would require players to purchase a a VR headset and the hardware to support, the current scenario simply does not support a piece of optional hardware for the new content being added.

 

[B1rdy]

Ok so if the shoe was in the other foot and the steam version was being depricated and the Oculus version was going to have ED:O and it be VR only you would be fine with that because you only ever expected to have ED:H . Ok then fair enough. I think you are in a minority however. Personally I think those who don't see VR as core to their gameplay are looking at it as "I am ok so sucks to be you" and shoe on other foot would be v dissapointed. Perhaps that isn't you and you are not being a hypocrite.

The Oculus store itself might be a special case, as it is really customer unfriendly in this regard. It restricts games, that have both flat and VR support, to VR only*. The blame is hardly on FDev, as their only choice could have been to not publish it on Oculus Store.

*For this reason alone customers should avoid Oculus Store. Even the pricing does not compensate for this restriction.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Your describing a game with VR support going from "VR supported" to "VR Only". Because VR players can still play odyssey, they are not being cut off from the game. What your proposing would be cutting off none-vr players from the game. If you can play Elite in VR, you can play Elite without VR, your scenario implies that VR players won't have access to Odyssey, they will. In your hypothetical, Frontier would be saying "The future of elite will not include none-vr players, if you want to take part in future expansions, you need to pay at least $300 for a head set your computer might not support." versus "VR will not be supported for these parts of the game".

Every elite VR player can take their headset off, most none-VR players can't just buy a VR headset or they probably would have done so. Your comparison isn't the same thing, the current version of Odyssey isn't excluding anyone. Your scenario would require players to purchase a a VR headset and the hardware to support, the current scenario simply does not support a piece of optional hardware for the new content being added.

You just said people on the Oculus store version don't have a cause for complaint because they still have access to ED and ED:H . I then said so what if it was the steam version not getting development but would still have access to ED:H and you say that isn't ok. How can you not see your double standards. ?

 

[Harley001]

If you say it’s not a VR game, cool, you’re perfectly correct and I’ll carry on playing one of my favourite VR games in VR

I’m not sure which games you are saying the head camera DOES NOT WORK for, but I think Alien: Isolation and Subnautica VR would probably fit that description - and I would heartily disagree with a broad smile upon my face, those two being absolutely awesome VR experiences

Having messed around with the on-foot vanity cam this morning, I hope FDev would be open to implementing a SubnauticaVR-style control method - standing under those skies today, phew! I’d like some more, please

I play subnautica in vr, I didn't think it very good to be honest but more importantly it's not the same thing. Lemme give you just one hypothetical scenario, I am being shot at by a player, I duck behind a barrel, one that's too small to crouch under normally but I can put my head behind there because VR. Two things than happen. 1. I have a advantage over the none VR player because I can use cover he can't. 2. I get shot in the face because my character model does not duck behind the barrel. This is a issue.

Oh but what if it's a sitting down experience like Subnautica? Same problem, in Subnautica the characters body follows my view, when I turn my head, the character turns.
In Subnautica if I move with my headset on, my location as a player also moves. What would happen in Elite legs? Would my view become detached from my body? That would get annoying quickly, even if I am sitting in a chair, I still shift in my chair a bit, not having the camera line up with my in game perspective would be a problem. If my view does not line up with my screen it creates all sorts of problems. How do I aim if my head is off center? Is there just going to be a crosshair plastered to the screen? Or would it be based on the model? If I move my head a little to the left does the entire character model than shift to the left? That would be annoying and probably get me killed pretty quick. Subnautica is also singleplayer so it can get a way with a lot more because the vr experience is not being subjected to anyone else without their approval. If the ED VR legs used the subnautica controls, you would be aiming your gun using your face and controlling your movement using WASD, you would be unable to strafe or shoot on the move at anything that isn't directly in front of you. You would need a control method to rotate the player, imagine being in a fire fight and trying to turn the player like a tank or having to spin your chair in real life.

To go into all the problems that would arise would require a lot more writing.

Your experiences in other games does not mean they would apply to Elite. Different engine, different circumstances, different game mechanics. I don't care about your other VR game experiences, they don't apply to the Cobra Engine or Elite Legs. If you think of something that you can do with the cobra engine, than be my guest and suggest it. But right now your assuming that what works in Subnautica would work in Elite but I can already see plenty of issues that arrive. The devs aren't going to rush a feature into the game if it's terrible. They would take a PR hit from that, steam would put "VR support" on the store page and than people would find out it's crap. Reviewers would have no mercy because they wouldn't care about the forum drama, they would just care about the bad mechanics.

 

[Harley001]

You just said people on the Oculus store version don't have a cause for complaint because they still have access to ED and ED:H . I then said so what if it was the steam version not getting development but would still have access to ED:H and you say that isn't ok. How can you not see your double standards. ?

I don't see it because it does not exist. there is no double standard. I already told you why your scenario does not compare to the current scenario.

Your scenario is asking people to spend a lot of money to get new hardware. Optional hardware becomes mandatory hardware in your scenario.

The current scenario is optional hardware stays optional. The features that the optional hardware supported are still there and still supported. You can still fly your ship and drive your SRV in VR. Nothing has been taken away, and no new requirements have been placed on you to experience Odyssey.

The current scenario does not exclude anyone, your scenario does.

Also , I play Elite in VR all the time. So your scenario I would still be able to play. But I would be upset that frontier made a stupid decision that would reduces the games population.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Because they don't exist. there is no double standard. I already told you why your scenario does not compare to the current scenario.

Your scenario is asking people to spend a lot of money to get new hardware. Optional hardware becomes mandatory hardware in your scenario.

The current scenario is a new part of the game not supporting a optional piece of hardware. The people who have that optional hardware can still use it during the supported bits and do not have to make new investments to continue playing.

The current scenario does not exclude anyone, your scenario does.

Ok so you are saying the Oculus store version is getting ED:O then abs those with that version of the game are not being left behind. Great news however I would.lpve to know where you get the info from because last I looked there were a number of folk belly aching because they were NOT going to get access to ED:O with or without VR. A point you seemily acknowledged before when you said but they still have ED:H so have no cause for complaint.
In my hypothetical scenario steam players still have access.to ED:H so it IS comparable.

You can't say on 1 hand it's ok Oculus players still have ED:H which is all they bought and on the other hand say it would not be ok if they did the same thing but with the steam version (well you can but it comes across as pretty self centred and "I'm alright jack but screw you" imo)

 

[Arioch]

To go into all the problems that would arise would require a lot more writing.

Aye, I wouldn’t bother - I’ve seen all the arguments before and I disagree

Having played Odyssey for the past week, if I was getting shot in the face while crouching behind a container (this has happened the other day in virtual flatscreen) then I would super-low-G-jump away to a better defensive position before my shield dropped. If I was getting shot in the face in VR (this happened this morning in the VR vanity cam) then I would super-low-G-jump away and then carry on running, dodging incoming fire, because there’s no point firing back without an aiming reticle

Anyway, I’m off to go and play some more in my favourite VR game in VR, and see if I can position the vanity cam just in front of my CMDR’s head

Edit: haha - Golgot has got there first
Post in thread 'Allow the VR '2D screen' to be disabled?'
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/allow-the-vr-2d-screen-to-be-disabled.565992/post-9065758

 

[Harley001]

Ok so you are saying the Oculus store version is getting ED:O then abs those with that version of the game are not being left behind. Great news however I would.lpve to know where you get the info from because last I looked there were a number of folk belly aching because they were NOT going to get access to ED:O with or without VR. A point you seemily acknowledged before when you said but they still have ED:H so have no cause for complaint.
In my hypothetical scenario steam players still have access.to ED:H so it IS comparable.

You can't say on 1 hand it's ok Oculus players still have ED:H which is all they bought and on the other hand say it would not be ok if they did the same thing but with the steam version (well you can but it comes across as pretty self centred and "I'm alright jack but screw you" imo)

Ok there is a lot to unpack here. I am going to address this one at a time.

You said: "Ok so you are saying the Oculus store version is getting ED:O then abs those with that version of the game are not being left behind. Great news however I would.lpve to know where you get the info from because last I looked there were a number of folk belly aching because they were NOT going to get access to ED:O with or without VR. A point you seemily acknowledged before when you said but they still have ED:H so have no cause for complaint."

Reply: No I never said that. Elite is no longer on the Oculus Store, and those who bought on the oculus store got a key to redeem at the launcher. There is nothing expect lack of money stopping someone with VR or who bought it on the oculus store from buying ED:O. If you do not like steam, you can buy ED:O from the frontier website and get a game key. I do not understand what you are trying to say. ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT MYSELF. What players bought on the oculus store isn't being taken away from them or preventing them getting access to ED:O

You said: "You can't say on 1 hand it's ok Oculus players still have ED:H which is all they bought and on the other hand say it would not be ok if they did the same thing but with the steam version (well you can but it comes across as pretty self centred and "I'm alright jack but screw you" imo)"

Reply: No clue where you are going with this. I have the steam version, it has the exact same VR support as the oculus version, it's the exact same game. People who bought the oculus version of ED:H can get ED:O. People on steam can also get ED:O. Littery buying the game from the oculus store just gave you a key code, the same code you would get if you bought it from the frontier website. And if your asking me if it would be ok for steam players to only have ED:H if they didn't buy ED:O than YES, THAT WOULD BE FAIR. Because obviously if you don't buy ED:O your not going to have the Odyessy content! And once again I say, You can buy ED:O no matter where you bought ED:O, if you are a VR player, you are not being excluded from anything.

You are acting like people with VR headsets are somehow being kept from buying ED:O. You mentioned steam users, guess what. You can buy ED:O if your not a steam user. Here you go, https://www.elitedangerous.com/buy/frontier/elite-dangerous-odyssey .

 

[babelfisch]

You just said people on the Oculus store version don't have a cause for complaint because they still have access to ED and ED:H . I then said so what if it was the steam version not getting development but would still have access to ED:H and you say that isn't ok. How can you not see your double standards. ?

He does have a point though.

Ok so you are saying the Oculus store version is getting ED:O then abs those with that version of the game are not being left behind. Great news however I would.lpve to know where you get the info from because last I looked there were a number of folk belly aching because they were NOT going to get access to ED:O with or without VR. A point you seemily acknowledged before when you said but they still have ED:H so have no cause for complaint.
In my hypothetical scenario steam players still have access.to ED:H so it IS comparable.

You can't say on 1 hand it's ok Oculus players still have ED:H which is all they bought and on the other hand say it would not be ok if they did the same thing but with the steam version (well you can but it comes across as pretty self centred and "I'm alright jack but screw you" imo)

VR players can still have Odyssey with walking around on a screen.

In your scenario non VR players wouldn't have access to Odyssey at all. There clearly is a difference.

I support everyone who wants a better VR experience in Odyssey though, just keep in mind that it will never be as good as the ship implementation.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

He does have a point though.

VR players can still have Odyssey with walking around on a screen.

In your scenario non VR players wouldn't have access to Odyssey at all. There clearly is a difference.

I support everyone who wants a better VR experience in Odyssey though, just keep in mind that it will never be as good as the ship implementation.

No you are mistaken. (Unless there has been a recent announcement). If you own the game on Oculus store Oculus players won't even get as far as playing on a screen as their versio. Of the game is not even getting the expansion. If I am wrong then I hold my hands up. But if the argument is it is not fair to expect players to pony up cash for VR then it should also grok it is not fair for them to have to buy another copy of the game.

I just. Checked incase ED:O was a standalone with no need to own the base game and got the following
Edit paste didn't work basically says you need to buy a copy of elite dangerous 1st.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION​

Requires product	Elite Dangerous