Obsidian Ant on Pilots Federation idea

[mossfoot]

Since the other thread closed I just wanted to collect/edit my ideas from there for here in case there's something to discuss.


They could even start laying down the foundations in lore right now. All the frustration about Distant Ganks? Work that into GalNet... followed by an unprecedented response from the Pilots Federation, saying they are disturbed by these actions and while they've always strive to be neutral they realize come action like these harm the PF as a whole and they will look into further action.

Then later, when they Devs are ready, start articles talking about their membership process going under review and threatening expulsion along with a loss of privileges. Not long after that, Archon Delane jumps at the opportunity and claims he's establishing a network to connect the entire Kumo Crew if they are expelled and will welcome all renegades to use it, even rival privates...

Basically, establish a criminally based alternative to Pilots Federation with its own ranking (Blameless to Elite) that could give its own set of benefits that the Pilots Federation would have revoked in some alternative fashion. Perhaps established by the only pirate PP faction in the game (where the new proposed stations would first appear).

I love the possibilities this offers for everyone. For example, I'm not a pirate type as I feel my targets need to have a reason to be targeted other than lulz or money. But as a privateer? Disrupting trade in the name of a government or cause I believe in? I could see myself doing that. And I would be totally okay with the idea of getting kicked out of the PF for my actions and having to slum it in Tortuga with Captain Blood.

And then later, when I feel like a change, I've got a redemption story already set up as I try to get back into the PF's good graces.

Point is, whether or not this would have an impact on griefing/ganking/PvP is besides the point. The possible gameplay opportunities and variety of play styles it opens up for everyone just seems worth it.

 

[Ziljan]

As long as it's properly balanced with alternative options for outfitting and engineering, then it has a lot of potential for fun. A lot of people are just going to watch the first couple of minutes and go "Yessss! Completely shut down te bad gankermanz and make him quit te game!" but that isn't what OA was getting at.

Yeah it definitely needs to be balanced in terms of Risk vs Reward. Otherwise where do all the NPC pirates come from if they have nothing to gain but hardship? On the other hand, the thug life should be tough and only profitable if you're really really good. So that it probably wouldn't be worthwhile for common criminals unless they stuck to the easier hunting grounds like anarchy and low sec systems.

 

[mossfoot]

Obsidian Ant has a point with the Pilot's Federation story/lore.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with further penalties for crime in ED.

Pirates and combat make the game more exciting and any further punishment will make this game LAME aF.

The ships in ED have hardpoints, shields and armor, and its the skilled CMDR that has to use these optimally.

I agree with a ranking system that has decay built in but strongly disagree to any further penalties for crime gaming.

I'm not sure you fully appreciate what he's saying, though - it's not just about taking something away. It's creating a system in which even if certain avenues are closed off due to criminal activity, OTHER avenues open up for the same reason.

This isn't about "criminals need to be punished" it's "criminals need to have a gameplay framework the same way explorers and miners recently got, and this is how you can accomplish that."

Punishment is part of it, but it's only punishment within a certain circle--and, let's face it, in a way that actually makes sense.

The other opportunies presented by adding the kinds of things being discussed in OA's video should more than make up for it.

 

[Stealthie]

Honestly, I find this rather frustrating.

Many, many, people have suggested this sort of stuff for years, and I don't recall seeing Ant' voicing an opinion in any of those discussions, I'm afraid.

And now he posts up a video where he suggests exactly the same things that a heap of us have been suggesting and it's all clapping and cheering?

 

[Ziljan]

I'm not sure you fully appreciate what he's saying, though - it's not just about taking something away. It's creating a system in which even if certain avenues are closed off due to criminal activity, OTHER avenues open up for the same reason.

This isn't about "criminals need to be punished" it's "criminals need to have a gameplay framework the same way explorers and miners recently got, and this is how you can accomplish that."

Punishment is part of it, but it's only punishment within a certain circle--and, let's face it, in a way that actually makes sense.

The other opportunies presented by adding the kinds of things being discussed in OA's video should more than make up for it.

Yup, not better or worse, just different with some heavy penalties sure, but also some incentives and benefits as well. An example:

-markets could provide better prices for hot items and stolen modules than you'd find in lawful systems because there wouldn't be any bureaucratic overhead.
-you'd get access to higher profit (and higher risk) piracy jobs
-player piracy for specific items at CGs would yield higher profits (due to subsidized contracts put out by competing systems' markets)
-you'd get access to assassination missions/CGs for killing clean players at certain bounty hunting CGs (from local mafias opposing the crack down)
-gain access to new outlawed modules like grappling hooks and limpet hackers

 

[Tel Prydain]

Had a look through my past posts and found my post from the year-old C&P thread:

A good crime and punishment system should actually improve life for pirates (and assassins) as much as it improves life for traders. It should encourage gameplay, not artificially limit it. And it should impact both PvE and PvP equally.
Pirates should be flying out of hidden pirate bases… praying on those foolish enough to enter anarchy systems or sneaking into high-sec systems to pray upon traders there – and they should get good money for doing so.
Bounty hunters should hunt pirates, assassins should hunt bounty hunters… (assassins get paid more, but will have a harder time having high-quality components serviced). Pirates should be flying overheating rustbuckets with devastating weapons… a real risk, but not a full on military force.

This can be achieved with:
* Rep is changed by long-term actions, not reset by death.
* In high sec systems pirating should be nearly impossible, with high-powered security forces patrolling and jumping in within moments
* Anarchy systems should have zero repercussions for pirates, and should be deathtraps for unarmed traders (massive amounts of npc pirates if no player pirates about).
* There should be a range of security types in between
* Stations in high sec locations should shoot known pirates on sight
* Clean traders/bounty hunters should be followed when they leave from lowsec stations, hounded by pirates and assassins respectively.
* High sec stations won’t allow a very low-rep pilot to dock
* A low sec station shouldn't allow high rep pilots to dock (since high rep means you’ve been working with security forces or navies).
* Low sec stations should offer greater rewards for basic cargos – thus tempting traders to risk it
* Low sec stations have no black markets – they’re happy to buy stolen gear at full price.
* High sec stations tax you…. Unless you can smuggle cargo in… The black market should buy anything less tax, but damage rep.
* Buying anything (cargo or components) at high sec stations should cost a lot more – someone needs to pay for all that security.
* Ship components at high sec stations should have far better quality and better range, with massive mark-ups. Modifications rarer and mostly ‘clean’ or ‘efficient’ type. Insurance is good (aka normal).
* Ship components at low sec stations should be dirt cheap, but poor quality. Weapons should be prone to overheating, but devastating. Modifications should be cheap and plentiful, but mostly of the dirty/overcharged variety. Insurance should cost more (although lower ship-cost should offset that)… maybe some notorious pirates don’t get insurance at all.
* Pirate stations shouldn’t be able to (or should charge massive amounts for) repairing high-quality components and ships… encouraging pirates to fly with ‘pirate’ gear.
* High sec stations won’t repair illegally modified gear (some very high-sec stations might even fine you for using modified or bootleg gear), and charge a lot more for repairing legally modified gear.

The whole thing has to go hand-in-hand with a communication overhaul to allow a Wing Commander style communication system that allows you to hail NPC ships with basic options, such as "drop your cargo", "I surrender", "Do you need help", etc

 

[M00ka]

I don't often agree with some of OA's videos but this idea does have a lot of merit. But don't make it willy nilly, giving the player the opportunity to switch between the good and dark sides, make it permanent. All that has to be done is make the criminal side attractive enough so players will embrace the concept. Things like:

(1) A new string of Engineers, but based on enhancing the illegal elements. Things like better interdictors, better silent running, better hatch breakers and the such. And create an arms race between the two groups of Engineers, as one develops new technology, the other side develop something to counter that. Furthermore, make the requirements for these criminal engineers fit into the ethos of the game. Have the requirements applicable to the situation, like having to provide 'x' amount of smuggled good, or have a notoriety of 3, that sort of thing.

(2) Get rid of any missions that may make a clean Commander commit an illegal act. Talking about massacre missions here to destroy clean ships, data scanning/skimmer killing and the such. These missions can be handled by the Criminals. There is no reason why a 'normal' faction might engage a criminal world to get a dirty job done, even if it through third parties or intermediators.

(3) As these new criminal stations don't have access to normal facilities like Cartography then it would be natural that they develop their own. But they would be interested in different things so handing in data for non-populated systems wouldn't mean a lot to them, but any new and updated data on populated systems would so they would pay higher for the latter and less for the former.

(4) FD will need to redo the entire System Security fiasco. High Sec should mean High Sec, nearly instant death to any criminal that dares enter it. For Med and Low, naturally the reaction time of the plodders are reduced. But the most important thing is that if a system isn't populated, it isn't by default an Anarchy System, it should be renamed, UNPOPULATED. Otherwise if the Criminal systems are based on Anarchy then 99% of the galaxy is currently under their control.

(5) Black markets should only be in Anarchy systems. So if a Clean Commander wants to dip their toes in the dark side with a little smuggling, then they have to take the chance and visit a criminal station. Yes much more increased risk, but make the reward better as the illegal market will be getting something it normally wouldn't. In fact this could be taken a step further and have the ability to do fully blown trade runs at a much increased profit margin, just their is a much higher risk involved. Things like shipping personal weapons, medicines even food.

(6) As these Criminal Stations won't have access to a shipyard or outfitting to buy new ships and modules, FD could create a new line of ships based on the existing ones but more hybrid. Think of it as taking damaged ships, grabbing bits and pieces off several and building a new ship. As for modules, they will all be second hand, so cheaper but slightly less efficient. As for getting those things, well we already have these mysterious mega ships transporting our ships and modules around the galaxy, make them visible and piratable. Heck being in a mechanism that if enough pirate ships attack one it will surrender and head to the nearest Criminal Station. There are your 'new' ships and modules.

Yep, like the idea, would create a lot of gameplay that is sorely needed!

 

[mossfoot]

I don't often agree with some of OA's videos but this idea does have a lot of merit. But don't make it willy nilly, giving the player the opportunity to switch between the good and dark sides, make it permanent.

Just want to say that NOTHING should be permanent, but I do agree it shouldn't be willy nilly. You should be able to switch, but it should take time and effort either way, not just paying off a bounty or killing a single harmless trader.

In fact, that would allow for some room for those who like to dance on the edge of the knife, so to speak. Someone who dabbles in criminality and legality, whatever gets them credits (or meets their personal objectives). BUT, people like that would never experience all the benefits of either side, just the early ones, so that way there's incentive to commit to one or the other, but also some appeal for being in middle.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Nothing new here. I pitched the same thing over a year and half ago.
I just don't have the name recognition, or the time to sit and produce videos.

 

[mossfoot]

Nothing new here. I pitched the same thing over a year and half ago.
I just don't have the name recognition, or the time to sit and produce videos.

A lot of people have pitched or promoted similar ideas (God knows I know I have as well).

But I think what makes this video important (and the growing response to it) is this growing sence that this is an idea "whose time has come."

Hopefully FDev will see it the same way

 

[StuartGT]

Nothing new here. I pitched the same thing over a year and half ago.
I just don't have the name recognition, or the time to sit and produce videos.

Aye, many of us have. Even SDC around the Focused Feedback discussions of C&P.

The best way to have important change ideas brought to the devs attention: well-rounded gameplay plans (that understand different niches and possibilities) and gathering community support (via whatever means).

Obsidian Ant is deservedly well placed for that

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Imagine losing Fed and Imp Rank, Permits and Engineer access because you murdered one too many commanders. Basically a CMDR reset.

Losing rank, and losing the ability to buy further ships from said factions yes. By all means, thats something that is viable, but removing engineer acess?

I think you're straying into dangerous territory with that suggestion. It's quite a snarky one and the intent behind it has not gone unoticed.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Nothing new here. I pitched the same thing over a year and half ago.
I just don't have the name recognition, or the time to sit and produce videos.

A bit of a weird response.

Salt? It kinda comes across that way..

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

But yes, brilliant idea.

Something that actually makes sense and is'nt out to fist one particular group simply because the proposer does not like them. (Which is what 99.9% of the similar things are)

Consequences that make you lose a whole lot, but then, if you work hard enough, you get relatively similar perks, only you have to be a bad*** space crim for extended periods of time to get them. Also more content related to the criminal playstyle is very likely to pull a fair amount of intrest from the current ganking community. Its often forgotten that said folk have likely done just as much PvE related activity as your average player, if not more. They would most likely embrace content with a more suitable flavour.

Further incentivising piracy should also be looked at. Say black markets in certain locations around the bubbl pay considerably more for certain goods, as outlying criminal systems would surely have supply issues. Such commodities could be bought via a special contact in the station that replaces the usual commodity markets and is part of said criminal underworld. Though to balance this, unlocking some of these merchants, especially those who sell rarer commodities (yielding a far larger payout due to the difficulty for the player to obtain, police harrasment, danger of being vaporised upon enter the station etc), should be limited to players wholly dedicated to the criminal mindset. As the idea was floated to add criminal ranks, much like how the PF does, would be a good way of setting access to these proposed traders/buyers.

Just a spitball of the top of my head, but there is an awful lot that can be done with this

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

Had similar idea myself.

Mine was better but I might be biased.

 

[Kaocraft]

It's a dumb idea, just about the dumbest thing I've ever seen come from OA, not just from a design and lore perspective but also because it's essentially asking Frontier to build a whole massive series of additional systems which mostly replicate existing game functionality. I mean, hello? Every ship in the game has the same HUD, for crying out loud. It's completely implausible that Frontier would ever build something so elaborate and convoluted when they can barely keep the regular galmap working.

As long as we're daydreaming I'd rather have zero-G brazilian jiu-jitsu combined with "the slow blade passes through" dune-style forcefield knifefights between boarding parties. And a pony, please.

 

[Sysmon]

It's a dumb idea, just about the dumbest thing I've ever seen come from OA, not just from a design and lore perspective but also because it's essentially asking Frontier to build a whole massive series of additional systems which mostly replicate existing game functionality. I mean, hello? Every ship in the game has the same HUD, for crying out loud. It's completely implausible that Frontier would ever build something so elaborate and convoluted when they can barely keep the regular galmap working.

As long as we're daydreaming I'd rather have zero-G brazilian jiu-jitsu combined with "the slow blade passes through" dune-style forcefield knifefights between boarding parties. And a pony, please.

I agree to some extent (especially about the pony!), and I think reworking the existing mechanics and attributes to make PvP more interesting for all parties and give the PF more of a face and place in the game is the better option. As I wrote in the other, now closed thread. Why was that thread closed? It was much better than this thread. Much, much better.

S

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Honestly, I find this rather frustrating.

Many, many, people have suggested this sort of stuff for years, and I don't recall seeing Ant' voicing an opinion in any of those discussions, I'm afraid.

And now he posts up a video where he suggests exactly the same things that a heap of us have been suggesting and it's all clapping and cheering?

High School Never Ends.

 

[Faybs]

It's a terrible idea. A large percentage of the player population are going to get kicked out of the pilot's federation from smuggling, assassination missions and accidentally killing NPCs, and now instead of having one pilot's federation you have two, which have to be near equivalent otherwise you can't play your way. Effect on FDev: a bunch of extra work; effect on the game as a whole: near zero.

 

[yminale]

It's a terrible idea. A large percentage of the player population are going to get kicked out of the pilot's federation from smuggling, assassination missions and accidentally killing NPCs, and now instead of having one pilot's federation you have two, which have to be near equivalent otherwise you can't play your way. Effect on FDev: a bunch of extra work; effect on the game as a whole: near zero.

I don't see how having 2 equivalent federations would stop you from playing your way. As for extra work, the game is a work in progress (see mining and exploration for examples). Compared to space legs and atmospheric landing, this would be easy.