Offline Mode - A Solution and Proposal to FD

[MrRefund]

Ok, first of all I come in peace not to start a flame war. I am one of the few lucky ones that got a refund, but it does not stop me thinking how good this game could have been offline. The purpose of this post is to offer an insight from a gamer how FD could perhaps do a U-Turn and everyone wins.

To establish some facts, or what I believe to be facts:

- It's clear that people don't want DRM etc as that was a promise on the KS.
- The online mode is simply to update the market place etc for trading - as what else is done behind the scenes ?
- The online mode is to allow in game adverts, if not now, at some point.

My proposal is this.

- Have an offline version of this that requires ZERO connection to the internet - but has the market properities of the orginal game and no DRM.
- Allow players to "update" the market by connecting online to download the data from the current markets and populate their ingame martket tables.
- During this transaction of the "update" that is forced by the player, download any ingame advertising etc for the front of stations or whatever if this is a future goal.
- Game updates. If there is a critical bug that needs updating allow players to update - however if they choose not to, that is ok - BUT - they must be on the latest "engine" to get stock updates.
- Skins etc. Again have an online option to purchase and download new ship ships, this again needs the latest "engine" but will also offer income to FD.

Let's look at some facts here...

- Elite is a game a lot of us love from our childhood and that is the experience we want to capture.
- Online is rubbish. Let's be honest that peer to peer connectivity for an online session with what, a possible 32 other players in the whole world - it may as well be Elite: Offline. This is not a dig, but pointing out we're really only a step away from what was promised. If for any reason in the future an internet SP blocks peer to peer traffic or this trafic is identified by a QoS policy as something else, the game is broken if that does not work.
- If people want to play an online fighting game, chances are, they're go to EVE: Online. This game I feel should be aimed at the more mature player who does not want to smack talk etc. So with this in mind, people know how empty the original was - this should be the same as the original but prettied up - but equally allowing for expansion without breaking the promise that David and Frontier made to it's loyal fans.

I hope this post is not moderated away, but surely the amount of negitive press that this game is getting and comments all over the internet the time has come for dialoge and a path forward to be worked out between FD and those that were promised the offline game and got an 11th Hour U-Turn ?

 

[AH_ImADot]

What happens if you do a bunch of stuff offline; turn a system or station, flood the market with a billion tons of goo, etc. then decide it's time to sync with the online universe? Everyone else all of a sudden sees this huge change with no indicators leading up to it. That hardly seems legit.
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Why not online Solo? You don't see other players, the data is constantly synced so there are no sudden surprises, and it's not like you're streaming 1080p full-length movies. Are you using a 1200 baud dialup modem you kept from 1984? Or perhaps your ISP charges by the bit?
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I guess offline could be offline forever with no upload/sync, but really what's the point of it and why is everyone so bent out of shape that there is no offline, when Solo is just as good as offline.

 

[MrRefund]

Nope, that would not happen.

What would happen is it would be incoming market data only so you get what the snapshot is of the current markets LIVE, and you pass nothing back.

 

[Expicurious]

I'd be far happier seeing Frontier put their effort into the continued development of the on-line game. I suspect that most of the people who got upset about the decision to pull offline will simply wander off with their refunds muttering to themselves.

 

[Harbinger]

Your assumption that only trading etc. requires a connection is flawed. Pretty much everything is considered a transaction and that is one of the core problems with regards to an offline mode. Some of these are pretty obvious but others, maybe not so much:

• When you buy/sell commodities, this is a transaction.
• When you buy/sell/store a ship, this is a transaction.
• When you buy/sell equipment, this is a transaction.
• When you jump into/out of supercruise/hyperspace, this is a transaction.
• When you destroy a ship (or it destroys you), this is a transaction.
• When you're scooping fuel off a star, this is a transaction.
• When you're mining and something enters your refinery bins or is converted to cargo, this is a transaction.
• When you explore and find new bodies or transition them from UNEXPLORED to a named body, this is a transaction.
• When you take on/hand in a mission, this is a transaction.

There are many more examples but essentially pretty much anything you do in the game requires some form of server side transaction and this is one of the reasons that offline mode is such a problem. They'd need to create a version that handled all the transactions client side and also emulate certain aspects that are generated by the actions of real players. They'd also need to generate a galaxy with a different seed and then strip it of any secrets prevent it from being picked apart by people who may well spoil the surprise in the main version. It's not that it can't be done, it's just impractical (and likely expensive) to have to develop/maintain two completely separate builds at this point.

I'd expect Offline mode may well be something FDEV look at a couple of years down the line when the game matures somewhat and it becomes less of a problem to split into two separate builds but for now it isn't something they are prepared to commit resources to.

It's sad to see so many dissatisfied people who felt their only recourse was to seek a refund based upon this feature. However, I'm sure those who haven't become jaded by the time it's taken to process refunds would likely come back to the game if and when an Offline mode comes to the game.

 

[gazmoid]

Many of us won't get refunds because we helped fund the game with serious money and helped them alpha and beta then gamma the game. Lets face it this game is early BETA right now. With the money Frontier has admitted to making being way more than they expected why not allocate some of that money to the actual promises they made ? Offline isn't a hard addition, the sure managed a good game back in the 80's and another couple in the 90's ... Look I'm all for online , I am !!! But seriously they don't want too have us have an offline game. Btw offline should be truly offline and have no way to link to ONLINE SOLO or ONLINE GROUP, that wouldn't be fair it should be a separate real experience we can play as a game. What we currently have is a beautiful framework with no real game in it , just away to inject events until the server money runs out.

Programmers with real skill and vision managed this years ago ( Braben that was you too !! ) ... Clearly procedural generation in terms of gameplay generation is out of there abilities or hands ( for financial reasons ) ...

 

[Tiamat]

Offline isn't a hard addition, the sure managed a good game back in the 80's and another couple in the 90's ... Look I'm all for online , I am !!! But seriously they don't want too have us have an offline game.

Actually it is a hard addition. The original games were designed to be offline from the very start and ED was not. As the game evolved and more and more of the functionality got linked to the server (see Harbinger's post) FD realised that an offline version was going to become a problem. I think they were still tinkering with an offline version trying to find a way of making it work right until it got pulled (I really don't think they wanted to break that promise). They could add code to randomise missions, trading and modules etc. but everything would be very static and bland compared to the online game as nothing would ever change. I think they realised that if they released the offline version it would get savaged by reviewers for being so bland it would hurt the reputation of the game.

I think it was Michael Brookes that said offline was possible but they would have to rewind 2 years and pretty much remake the game from scratch with focus entirely on offline. It isn't impossible but they want to make Elite 4, not spend 2 years and a lot of money making a HD remake of the original.

 

[MetalMicky]

Hi, fellow commanders. I for one liked the original idea of purchasing a game built around fond childhood dreams. Back then, the talk on the street and at school was who is at what stage in ranking. what you've found and how those bloody Thargons blown your ship to bits on the last run. I also like many minded, bought the idea that this game was going to be the ELITE game built on the Now technology. How many of us dreamed the idea of having that toy,that bike, that car, that motorbike etc. And only at a later AGE !!!!! was able to afford it ha ha. This game could and should be the answer to our childhood dreams of what we imagined this game would be like in the future, the NOW. What I worry about is this dream is in the hands of "If the money runs out to support the on line service" Its a case of oh well turn the switch off. I've already noticed the words " We intend to develop and improve this game" and " Thank you for all the support while we expand the structure of the concept of ED". I do understand to a limit of reasons behind having a game that is online only. However, to date I've paid for a game that I have NO hard copy, glossy package etc. A game I need to have a constant GOOD internet connection to. So I'm now held to ransom as to the cost of my internet provider, and the possible threat of hidden costs if this game requires updates or add ons. I refer to the Total War games and the interaction of STEAM. Any and all updates or improvements are now called DLC. Down Load Contents or Give Me More Money. If ED is to stay as an online game why not have it run by STEAM or alike. Two things can than happen. MODS can be developed by the forum to expand the game in more ways that the Dev could never do in the time they currently spend on it. The game ED can be an offline game in its basic form to be played as any other game with NO hidden costs. What I feel or fear is happening is current gamers/commanders, are under the impression of playing SOLO till they have a ship with teeth that can handle the OPEN PLAY world. Being the current costing credit scheme of things, ie it costs you a fortune and time to get the ship you think you need. Only the Die Hard or stubborn fans try to make a go of it. I can understand the sometimes bad publicity ED is getting with regards how ruthless the game can be. how hard it is to get started, and easy it is to die and lose everything. I can only say I miss one thing from the current ED. The option to SAVE GAME. Before you go buy that very very expensive laser gun, only to find you cant use it ha ha. Aaaaah the good old days of multi-saves. Thanks for reading .... cheers.

 

[Tiamat]

Online games are not run by Valve/Steam they are just published by it and FD would have to give up 30% of the sales. I think Valve would supply the download/patch servers but I think that is about all you get other than being listed as a Steam game. Steam has yet to be hit as badly as SOE but anybody who has played a game published by SOE in the last 2 years can tell you of the pain caused by essentially handing control over to a third party that gets hacked/DDOS'd.

A hard copy of the game is available if you want to upgrade to the boxed copy. You could burn your current game folder to a DVD or archive to memstick too if you wanted to keep a copy without upgrading.

FD have said that with the exception of major addons all updates are free and those free updates are not stopping anytime soon. DLC such as planetary landings will be optional so you can choose whether you want them or not so there are no hidden costs. They have also said (before the game even released I might add) that if they ever have t shut down the severs they will release an archive of the server daemons/databases so you can host your own.

The game is not really that hard to get started with once you understand the basic mechanics. When I started back in beta the tutorials were much more basic and there was much less documentation. Forger's guide taught me everything I needed to know. Those that die and lose everything are only doing so because they are not leaving themselves enough money for insurance and I can't see that being the game's fault. Those players wouldn't drive a car without insurance and complain if they have an accident which totalled the car leaving them without transport.

Modding is something many would like but any modding capability has to be handled very carefully as if you can cheat via mods it will ruin the game.

 

[cyd]

Since battlenet 2 servers were cloned many years ago people have been working on this type of problem. You want to run your own server to your own game that you paid for but said publisher doesn't exactly want you to do that.

You can reverse engineer the server. Plenty of World of Warcraft vanilla servers exist. It happens. God knows this game needs a fork.

 

[SuBSynk]

Your name alone is indication of why this thread does not deserve a reply but ill bite.

Offline mode is and always was a side feature that the vast majority of players did not place in a high priority. Any time spent on the feature would detract from development of the online product and i consider that as wasted time and effort for a group of people that have done their absolute utmost to slander, insult and waste the time of FD.

From the beginnings of the "offline gate" affair i honestly found the whole thing idiotic and childish but when "offliners" started with their calls of fraud, court action, consumer groups and trading standards the whole thing became a circus. Asking for refunds on a game that does not contain every feature you expected based upon what was announced during its kickstarter phase, attacking an indy company and attempting to besmirch its name during the lead up to the premier event, wasting the time of the support staff with ramifications lasting still to this day with massive log backs....all these things the offline crowd should be ashamed of and personally i'm amazed you people dare to show your faces around the forums.

I for one think the offline crowd should just leave the forums and never return, many of us that support FD and enjoy the online product will continue to play this game for many years to come, the actions taken by the "offliners", their attempts to ruin the game for everyone because they did not get what they wanted was offensive, selfish and left personally for me a bad taste in the mouth. I still notice many "offliners" hanging around, making snarky comments at any opportunity and being a general pain in the rear but please just leave the forums -of a game you do not play- and take your silly offline suggestions with you.

 

[Tryst]

I play solo most of the time because I never wanted an online version of Elite. I always played Elite as a single player game and don't see PVP as a good addition since some of us just can't compete with those who have been playing online PVP flight sims for a long time. I'll be the first to admit that I suck at PVP. The biggest problem I come across with online games is, there are always the jerks with powerful gear who think its funny to pick on newbies with basic gear but run when anyone stronger comes along.

What I proposed was a server emulator and while you can play the online version as well, you can't import your single player savegame or any part of it's market into the online version. You either play online or offline as you wish. You can still play solo online but if your internet connection goes down because you had a bit of time off sick from work and can't pay the bill this month, you still have a game to play by launching the server emulator. The original Elite managed it on just 48K of RAM, I am sure the market data and such can be done the same way on several gigabytes of RAM. I really don't want to be forced to use my internet to play a single player game by selecting the solo option, if I'm playing solo, I may as well not be online.

 

[Traven Mayhem]

Solo/private group and online should be seperate -- the two worlds should not impact each other (wrt background sim)

otherwise people will just flood the market or force faction changes to systems with people in online mode having no way to push back against this stuff -- it will be as if invisible hands are affecting their fate.

The vast majority of people who have spoken up in favor of solo/offline play have said they are in favor of this kind of model -- those that are really gung ho about solo/private group play have mostly indicated they have no interest in the open server.

 

[igor37]

The only reason why I'd like an offline mode at some point is the fact that every game server shuts down after some years. Some sooner, some later, and if I played a game for years and suddenly can't even start it anymore just because some servers are gone that would be just plain bad. I wouldn't mind if the offline mode only had a fraction of the systems and absolutely no sync with the servers, I don't care about that. All I want is some guarantee that I can play the game for a very, very long time if I want, and an offline mode does just provide that. I don't need it now, there are more important things to do, but I'd be happy if this feature would be released before the support for the game is stopped.

 

[SonataFanatica]

My main concern with ANY game I purchased that is connected to online servers is this:
What if I want to play the game again in like 20 years and the servers don't exist anymore?

Of course, the servers being down isn't going to happen anytime soon – I realize that.
However, if I buy a game I want to keep being able to play it!

It's not unrealistic at all, seeing how I STILL play "Frontier: Elite II", "Wing Commander II" and even older games like Infocom's "Wishbringer", LucasArts' "Loom", Infogrames' very first "Alone in the Dark", Westwood's "Dune II" and countless classics from the DOS era. I would be mad as hell if people were to tell me "no, you can't play those games anymore because the developers don't care anymore (or the companies don't even exist anymore)".


I don't care about online gaming. Never have, never will. When I sit at my PC, I want to immerse in those virtual worlds on my own! I don't care about social interaction in games and I hate online multiplayer games because other players always break the immersion. How can you suspend your disbelief if there are others (for example in MMORPGs) jumping up and down in front of you, running and jumping oh so valiantly (as in: hopping like bunnies) through the world! If I want to interact with other persons, I visit a chatroom or write on messageboards. Better yet: I go outside in the real world and meet some friends. But playing games is supposed to be my "alone time".

This might be kind of an obsolete attitude to most younger gamers who, by now, will probably think I'm some kind of a grandpa with an opinion that doesn't count anymore, anyway, but I paid for this game, just as they did!

 

[CaptainKremmen]

<snip>
I hope this post is not moderated away, but surely the amount of negitive press that this game is getting and comments all over the internet
<snip>

Whu...? Like the "BRING BACK OFFLINE MODE" petition, that had 86 people sign up to it?

I haven't heard boo about the old offline mode "all over the internet".


My personal expectation is that FD will continue to focus 100% of their efforts on making the one, full-feature game mode the best it can be.

 

[dementia]

I was disappointed to read of the dropping of the off line mode purely because much of my family and many of my friends cannot afford or do not have access to an internet connection but would love to play this game even if it is sand-boxed as in Solo only or maybe even PvE over a household LAN.

Saying that, the problem I see as being the largest is purely the hard drive space the server files would take up even with procedural generation. 400 billion stars and the associated meta data (their 3D positions in the galaxy alone) would be huge.

Here is the simple maths...

400,000,000,000 stars
3 coordinates (X, Y, Z)
I will assume each coordinate is a 4 byte floating point number

That alone would require about 4.36Tb of space and you haven't even added in any of the other meta data and objects yet (planets, names, descriptions, etc, etc)!

Of course you could say that for off line you will drop the number of star systems but that would seem second class to off line people and rightly so.

 

[Sentinel]

The part about always being online that bugs me is the constant need to update. I have a working game, i play for a couple of hours, I go to work, I spend some time with the wife and kids, work some more, finally get back to elite and a new patch is out. I hit the upgrade button and get an error c:\.....\data.ovx (validation error) again!

1.03 worked, 1.04 was broken, spent days in consultation with FD and tried dozens of different things to no avail. 1.05 arrived and YES!! finally I'm back in the game. Played for maybe 5 or 6 hours between work and family, right now I have a little time to play and 1.06 is here and its broken AGAIN!!!!! (excuse me while I bang my head on the table a few times and tear my hair out)

This is getting very frustrating. At least with an offline game, if the patch breaks you can go back to the previously working version until a working patch comes out.

 

[Tryst]

I was disappointed to read of the dropping of the off line mode purely because much of my family and many of my friends cannot afford or do not have access to an internet connection but would love to play this game even if it is sand-boxed as in Solo only or maybe even PvE over a household LAN.

Saying that, the problem I see as being the largest is purely the hard drive space the server files would take up even with procedural generation. 400 billion stars and the associated meta data (their 3D positions in the galaxy alone) would be huge.

Here is the simple maths...

400,000,000,000 stars
3 coordinates (X, Y, Z)
I will assume each coordinate is a 4 byte floating point number

That alone would require about 4.36Tb of space and you haven't even added in any of the other meta data and objects yet (planets, names, descriptions, etc, etc)!

Of course you could say that for off line you will drop the number of star systems but that would seem second class to off line people and rightly so.

The original elite managed with only 48K of memory and that included the game play too. Yes, even orbital data too. I remember chasing a station in the original Elite and not catching it until I'd pushed the thrust up more because I was following its orbital path.

You can duplicate a lot of it and have only data for 500 systems that's duplicated for others. Who cares is a system 200LY away has exactly the same orbital data etc? You can't be in both places at once so you won't even know. To be honest, I'd actually like a database that fills up over time with exploration anyway. By the time you've played this game for 2 years, you wouldn't even have visited a fraction of the number of systems, you'd be hard pushed to get even 1Tb of data in the database by your calculations after playing the game for 20 years. Even at the rate of one system every 2 minutes, it would take 1,522,070 YEARS to visit all 400 billion systems, (just a tiny bit more than most people's lifetimes ). In 20 years at 2 minutes on average per system, you could visit only 5,256,000 systems without any sleep.

Quite honestly, if the game proves successful enough, (I can't see that it won't be if enough development into new features is put into it), you'll probably be playing Elite 6 or 7 in 20 years time with a games computer that amounts to a holographic studio, (we can only hope )

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

The original elite managed with only 48K of memory and that included the game play too.

the original elite only had 265 systems per galaxy so its not really a valid comparison as you are trying to compare a little over 2000 systems with 400 billion.