On cetaceans

[trebthegreat]

One common thing ive seen is its cruel and abusive and frontier shouldn't include it so it doesnt encurage the practice irl...
I have only one question

I play Civiliization 4 and 6 for fun does that make me a genocidal warmonger? or Firaxis games encoraging it for giving the option to start wars and raze cities? I also like a bit of halo MCC multiplayer now and then... Does that make me a mass murdering gun maniac and microsoft complicit in mass shootings?

If not how is it bad to simulate keeping virtual cetacans but ok for 4X and FPS to allow you to potentally kill billions?

 

[Firestar97]

It's not cruel and abusive. Sea World gives their Animals the best Care possible. But one big Problem is that their CEO is a Idiot. They got Funds for a awesome gigantic Orca Tank that was already planned (I think when they still had the previous CEO) but then that Idiot decided to use it for stupid Rides instead. They could definitely be kept better if the right Person is in Charge. Don't know much about the Situation in other Parks.
One good Thing about Cetaceans in Games is that you can really care about the Animals instead of making such stupid Decisions

 

[Saelweth]

One common thing ive seen is its cruel and abusive and frontier shouldn't include it so it doesnt encurage the practice irl...

I laugh everytime I see someone say lets not encourage the practice of keeping cetaceans in captivity. Like that practice was actively encouraged without any outside influence by aquariums themselves. The arguement that they shouldn't do it because it encourages a practice is not actually a valid concern.

Marine mammals have been actively kept in aquariums since the 1860's the first time it was commercialized was in 1938. Cetacean captivity did not increase because of any game with captive marine mammals in fact putting them in planet zoo will likely raise awareness to the fact that some marine mammals do not do well in captivity. So I'd rather put them in the game then have them shelved. Just because people are unaware that marine mammal captivity has been around longer then video games have existed and needs no encouragement to continue happening. Besides orca captivity is now banned in the usa so it's actively being discourged in real life anyway. Many cetaceans and marine mammals need representation in games like this as it will only serve to bring attention to them especially if they do some lesser known species. I say bring forth the cetaceans and make adjustments for their habitats to require a decent amount of space and enrichment objects. [Obviously more space then seaworld and a limit of on social groups and a life span of 90+ years. Yes you read that right. Seaworld only gives you the captive lifespan and none of their trainers are marine biologists as well. [But this isn't about seaworld it's about why people are so oppossed to it being in game for xyz reason when people aren't going to be encouraged to go catch a dolphin and put it in bathtub.]

I don't see the issue in game other then you'd need to pre-sculpt all terrain before filling with water.

Point is I'm not going to go catch an orca snd put it in a bathtub because a game lets me design an orca habitat. And children won't either. It won't encourage people to try and catch these animals for display when all signs point to them not being suitable for captivity

 

[ElectricMonk]

Im not going to go over the arguments again because there are plenty of threads where lots and lots and lots of people (me included) go through them. I will say one thing though: I haven’t seen a single person make the arguments you are arguing against.

 

[Saelweth]

Im not going to go over the arguments again because there are plenty of threads where lots and lots and lots of people (me included) go through them. I will say one thing though: I haven’t seen a single person make the arguments you are arguing against.

It's been said multiple times about it in general and not just that but other such reasons for other features to not be included are: People don't want birds cause "No zoo game has Aviaries." Or "Cetaceans in game would encourage irl captivity" Give it a few hours you'll see it eventually trust me. I've seen it before in the community some people literally do think it would encourage people to kidnap baby orcas and dolphins from the wild.

 

[trebthegreat]

Im not going to go over the arguments again because there are plenty of threads where lots and lots and lots of people (me included) go through them.

Im fairly new here but not to the community, if you dont mind can you give me cliff notes of the arguments or links to the relevant threads?

 

[Saelweth]

Im fairly new here but not to the community, if you dont mind can you give me cliff notes of the arguments or links to the relevant threads?

It's likely that things gets removed but vast majority of community can be found on discord and reddit. Which reddit is where the vast majority of people who oppose cetaceans and aviaries in game are. But you are basically asking me to link posts and call out people which is not the point of this thread.

 

[Saelweth]

If you can't reasonably justify why you are oppossed to it then how is anyone going to understand you. I said my piece but as it seems no one actually wants to discuss their side. I'm going to just dip out.

 

[Firestar97]

If you can't reasonably justify why you are oppossed to it then how is anyone going to understand you. I said my piece but as it seems no one actually wants to discuss their side. I'm going to just dip out.

Most People are probably tired of the Topic. I think there are at least around 5-10 Threads about it

 

[trebthegreat]

It's likely that things gets removed but vast majority of community can be found on discord and reddit. Which reddit is where the vast majority of people who oppose cetaceans and aviaries in game are. But you are basically asking me to link posts and call out people which is not the point of this thread.

Im not asking for anyone to call out anyone else, the other reply simply said there are other threads that I can read to see the other arguments agaist...

Most People are probably tired of the Topic. I think there are at least around 5-10 Threads about it

I'm new, I didnt know that

 

[peafowl]

Its a realistic zoo sim about conservation and animal welfare. Cetaceans does not fit

 

[trebthegreat]

Its a realistic zoo sim about conservation and animal welfare. Cetaceans does not fit

If thats the case some of the animal choices are a bit off, West african lions arnt even kept in captivity, there not even a valid subspecies. Koalas are near impossible to keep outside australia. the whole polar bear fiasco... In the end its a game. its for fun.

 

[Firestar97]

If thats the case some of the animal choices are a bit off, West african lions arnt even kept in captivity

I've looked it up on Zootierliste.de once. There is a EAZA Zoo where they are currently kept.
But I think the Titan Beetle isn't kept in a single zoological Institution

Its a realistic zoo sim about conservation and animal welfare. Cetaceans does not fit

Captive Animals are useful for Research and can help to protect the wild ones that Way. But I agree that even though they are cared good for (at least in some Places) the Tanks could be better

 

[Nioell]

Its a realistic zoo sim about conservation and animal welfare. Cetaceans does not fit

Sorry, I love PZ but it's defintely not realistic and if that's the argument then we actually should get cetaceans because there are certainly enough zoos that keep them. If anything they can use the animals in game to educate people about them.

And the game lets you put the animals in tiny cages and build puppy farms without any consequences whatsoever depending on the game mode you play. In fact, you're even rewarded for the farms in the form of CCs, so the whole conservation/walfare argument just doesn't stick for me.

 

[mothiraffe]

Have you guys considered: it's fiction.

 

[Markiz]

Why would you guys want cetaceans in game with no other marine fauna ? There would be either weird out of place tanks in middle of regular zoos, or small parks with nothing but a few tanks.

We have no reason to believe we're ever getting other fully aquatic animals ( fish, reptiles, mammals, crustaceans, cephalopods...), then there's no reason to include cetaceans.

I mean, I might be missing something here, but that's clearly the main reason for their non inclusion. I'm sure some future Planet Aquarium will have them no problem

 

[[VR] Deggial]

Have you guys considered: it's fiction.

Indeed.

And in our fiction, we lay the ground for our society.
Our values, our believes. Our morals.

Games have fought for years to be recognized as genuine “cultural object” alongside theatre, literature and movies.
Finally, it acquired the desired status. But this comes to a cost. The cost of social responsibility.

 

[Markiz]

Come on now, let's not put games on same pedestal as theatres and literature.

Otherwise I stand with people who play their games realistically, as I feel the same, lot of immersion needs to occur to keep me playing one

 

[NZFanatic]

And the game lets you

This argument holds no water.

The game "lets you" do whatever you want, but only actively encourages proper animal care. The game also lets you build floating islands in the sky but it doesn't tell you you should. The space requirements for the polar bear were massive, and even after being reduced they are still massive, but I can still put them in a little box if I want to. The intent is clearly for a modern, spacious, enriching habitat.

I'm amazed people still think the "it's just a game" argument is any good. It's never been worth anything.

But that's all I say on the subject, as others have pointed out it's been rehashed ten thousand times by now. Suffice to say as much as it gets brought up over, and over, and over again, the chances of Frontier including fully aquatic animals are slim, but they are even slimmer for controversial picks such as dolphins and whales. Video game companies, like virtually all businesses, tend to avoid controversey wherever it occurs.

 

[Firestar97]

Why would you guys want cetaceans in game with no other marine fauna ? There would be either weird out of place tanks in middle of regular zoos, or small parks with nothing but a few tanks.

We have no reason to believe we're ever getting other fully aquatic animals ( fish, reptiles, mammals, crustaceans, cephalopods...), then there's no reason to include cetaceans.

I mean, I might be missing something here, but that's clearly the main reason for their non inclusion. I'm sure some future Planet Aquarium will have them no problem

I definitely want other aquatic Animals too. For Example Bull Shark, Alligator Gar, some Species of Octopus, Electric Eel (Exhibit Animal), Piranhas and Clownfish would also be nice.
Manatees too of course