On cetaceans
- Thread starter trebthegreat
- Start date
I hope for some whale shark in the game 
I hope for Captain Ahab's white wale....
Wasn't that one a Sperm Whale?
I doubt we'll see that one in the Game. But now I wonder if there were ever Attempts at the crazy Idea of keeping those
Obviously, having imaginary whales in a game won't encourage people to kidnap whales...
If marine biologists can come to the consensus that cetaceans in captivity are wrong in real life then who cares about someone's opinion on this forum who DIDN'T dedicate their lives to marine biology lol.
I googled what marine biologists think about the subject...and most countries have banned catching whales and keeping them captive.
So scientists who study whales, and dedicated their lives to studying whales have agreed keeping them in captivity is wrong. So that's what the experts think.
Why encourage an antiquated and harmful practice? Just because you saw "free willy" as a kid isn't a good enough reason to perpetuate the myth that cetaceans can be safely housed in captivity.
It's pretty commonly known that keeping whales in captivity is barbaric and whale shows in the "west" are slowly being phased out.
Just like how circuses from the barnum and bailey days are antiquated and considered barbaric by todays standards. Circuses are cruel and are being phased out. Whales in captivity are now considered cruel by EXPERTS and are being phased out.
This forum comes across like nobody knows the history of zoo's, or whales in captivity. Google it. They have a DARK history. Lots of practices are now considered inhumane. Lots of whales died.
Warning:
There's videos on YouTube of whales with fin collapse, exhibiting sterotypy, attacking trainers (alexis martinez, dawn brancheau, tamarie and orkid, ken peters and kasatka) there are also three incidents where Tilikum killed people (film - Blackfish) or videos of orcas ramming gates until they die...those videos exist (or existed and were removed).
I don't see any marine biologists on this forum telling people how to make fries at McDonald's. Stick to what you know? I'm not an expert...I did Google what the experts think. I googled what people way smarter than me think about this situation in real life and they have come to the conclusion that keeping whales captive is inhumane.
You wouldn't ask the taliban how to put a rocketship on the moon....you'd ask an expert. Maybe NASA, or someone qualified right?
Asking a forum on the internet their thoughts about keeping cetaceans in captivity...is like asking the taliban their thoughts on aerospace engineering....in all likelihood their response is not going to be a well informed/intelligent answer.
If marine biologists can come to the consensus that cetaceans in captivity are wrong in real life then who cares about someone's opinion on this forum who DIDN'T dedicate their lives to marine biology lol.
I googled what marine biologists think about the subject...and most countries have banned catching whales and keeping them captive.
So scientists who study whales, and dedicated their lives to studying whales have agreed keeping them in captivity is wrong. So that's what the experts think.
Why encourage an antiquated and harmful practice? Just because you saw "free willy" as a kid isn't a good enough reason to perpetuate the myth that cetaceans can be safely housed in captivity.
It's pretty commonly known that keeping whales in captivity is barbaric and whale shows in the "west" are slowly being phased out.
Just like how circuses from the barnum and bailey days are antiquated and considered barbaric by todays standards. Circuses are cruel and are being phased out. Whales in captivity are now considered cruel by EXPERTS and are being phased out.
This forum comes across like nobody knows the history of zoo's, or whales in captivity. Google it. They have a DARK history. Lots of practices are now considered inhumane. Lots of whales died.
Warning:
There's videos on YouTube of whales with fin collapse, exhibiting sterotypy, attacking trainers (alexis martinez, dawn brancheau, tamarie and orkid, ken peters and kasatka) there are also three incidents where Tilikum killed people (film - Blackfish) or videos of orcas ramming gates until they die...those videos exist (or existed and were removed).
I don't see any marine biologists on this forum telling people how to make fries at McDonald's. Stick to what you know? I'm not an expert...I did Google what the experts think. I googled what people way smarter than me think about this situation in real life and they have come to the conclusion that keeping whales captive is inhumane.
You wouldn't ask the taliban how to put a rocketship on the moon....you'd ask an expert. Maybe NASA, or someone qualified right?
Asking a forum on the internet their thoughts about keeping cetaceans in captivity...is like asking the taliban their thoughts on aerospace engineering....in all likelihood their response is not going to be a well informed/intelligent answer.
Actually I wasn't aware of zoos that keep cetaceans. Interesting. I guess you learn something new everyday.Well, I cant answer for everyone, of course, but as someone who really wants/needs cetaceans (and is not really intrested in fish) I can at least give you some of my reasons:
- I really love cetaceans, especially orcas.
- For many years I was hoping for a new zoo game with good graphics, where I can finally have good looking animals and yes, especially good looking orcas/dolphins in general.
- I would really love to breed generations of orcas, that I can trace back to the first I had, kind of like having an "orca-dynasty", you know?
- PZ actually gave me this idea - being able to breed albino or leucistic orcas would be awesome^^
- PZ is my favourite game which I already played for thousands of hours since release and so yes, I would love to have my favourite animals in my favourite game
- For me cetaceans do belong in zoo games
- Oh and actually I would also really like to have manatees and/or dugongs, just a bist less than cetaceans^^
- Honestly I could only see fish working as exhibit animals, while I am sure cetaceans/manatees could be working equal to habitat animals.
Well, for me there would be nothing weird about it, because for me cetaceans are "normal" animals, which can be in "regular zoos" And thats kind of how zoos do keep them
So in my opinion those zoos show that there is nothing unrealistic or weird to place cetaceans in "regular zoos" next to other non-aquatic species. Its also up to the player, afterall^^.Here an old map of Duisburg, when they still had Belugas and the River dolphins View attachment 269334
As you can see, the Belugas and dolphins were more or less placed "randomly" in the zoo. Next to tigers and the "Chinese garden" The River dolphins were in the old aquarium first, but years later Duisburg built the "Rio Negro hall", where the 2 were moved and displayed along to other Amazonian/South American animals (like the giant otter).
https://zoo-duisburg.de/lageplan (here is a link to the more or less actual plan, the River dolphin is still shown on the map, though. Without the belugas you could even say the bottlenose dolphins look now even more "random" on the map.
Nürnberg has their dolphins together with sea lions (to some degree, at least) and next to the manatee house. As far as I know they share the same underwater viewing area, meaning you can look at the dolphins from one side and then turn around to see the manatees. As you can see most of their neighbours do look kinda random, even though, yes there is an aquarium near by.
View attachment 269346
Now Loro Parque does have many fully aquatic animals, but they also didnt place them all in the same area. The dolphins and orcas are next to each other, however the tigers are also their neighbours.
View attachment 269356
My last example is from the Brookfield zoo.
The dolphins there are placed next to sea lions and/or seals and also close to the big cats. (there must be something about placing dolphins close to tigers)
So if we got for example the orca, bottlenose dolphin, Beluga, manatee and Amazon River dolphin, players who want to make specialized areas could place the first 4, maybe together with the seal, sea lions and penguins. This would make a nice aquatic area
And if Frontier made some small fish as exhibits, this would also be a nice addition^^
You know, Planet Aquarium is a nice idea, but the problem with it is, it dosent exits. Its true there is no guarantee we will ever get cetaceans or any other fully aquatic animal for PZ, but the chances are alot higher than waiting for a game thats so far just a fan idea, with nothing to suggest it will ever get produced at all.
Thats why I put all my hope for cetaceans in PZ
I believed diving was possible when many (if not most) players here were doubting it, so I hope I will be right with cetaceans aswell
Anyways, I just saw the "soul DLC" topic and I will definitive head there next^^
But I didn't say it was a problem to want them far from it, I was just wondering why would someone want them separately from other marine fauna. I mean, you explained pretty nicely.
I know wouldn't want, say five species of parrots and that's it no other birds. In that case I wouldn't want parrots at all. But to each their own, I can respect that
I see your perspective, I also completely agree about parrots/birds.
If/when we get an aviary pack...IF we only get 8-12 birds for an entire zoo that won't be realistic at all....
12 birds for 6 continents...2 birds to represent all of S. America or all of Africa just sounds pathetic. And I bet we only get 12 birds max, PZ is stingy with dlc.
If/when we get an aviary pack...IF we only get 8-12 birds for an entire zoo that won't be realistic at all....
12 birds for 6 continents...2 birds to represent all of S. America or all of Africa just sounds pathetic. And I bet we only get 12 birds max, PZ is stingy with dlc.
In all seriousness I feel like a lot of you are looking too deep into such a simple subject matter. At the end of the day, this game is about keeping animals in good environments, even if the requirements can be quite ridiculous, from the Polar Bear to even the unrealistic expectations of Koala requirements that this game tends to emulate. If Frontier adds dolphins or porpoises more realistically, they'll have larger requirements, which is a smart thing to do. I don't get why people would be against getting more diverse and interesting animals that would implement more gameplay and stylistic choices for exhibits and zoo's. Hell, even if you aren't all for cetaceans, show some love to other marine mammals as well. Manatees deserve a slot in this game more than dolphins in my opinion.
Give us manatees and walrus too! They aren't cetaceans and don't have the same social structures, ranges or habitat requirements as whales.
Same with pacific octopus, whale sharks, hammerheads, sting rays... I'm okay with them too since none of them are whales.
Love the channel Leaf
I hope you enjoy my impression of you
"I don't know" (in Leaf's voice)
Same with pacific octopus, whale sharks, hammerheads, sting rays... I'm okay with them too since none of them are whales.
Love the channel Leaf
I hope you enjoy my impression of you
"I don't know" (in Leaf's voice)
Want absolutely everything on this List even though I would prefer the Bull Shark if we should only get one Shark during the entire Lifetime of the GameGive us manatees and walrus too! They aren't cetaceans and don't have the same social structures, ranges or habitat requirements as whales.
Same with pacific octopus, whale sharks, hammerheads, sting rays... I'm okay with them too since none of them are whales.
Love the channel Leaf
I hope you enjoy my impression of you
"I don't know" (in Leaf's voice)
I don’t think it is simple. There is a growing scientific consensus that orcas, for example, are socially, psychologically and physically simply too complex to keep in captivity and it is impossible to humanely meet their needs. This is a view I share and I’d be disappointed if Frontier introduced them. Given their polar bear stance (which I thought was a gross simplification of the actual needs of captive polar bears) I think it’s unlikely anyway.
I’m less sure about smaller, less complex cetaceans but I still think it’s an area Frontier would prefer to avoid.
Agree.
Any work frontier does on the behalf of adding cetaceans is a slap in the face for everyone who wants more non-controversal animals than cetaceans added. And I agree: manatees should definitly be added to the game. But Frontier should spare their worktime for more "usefull" animals than gigantic fish or cetaceans.
The White Tiger, White Lion, and King Cheetah ban was started in 2012 and is with claims that they're breeding mutants if I remember the AZA head's quote...due to a deformity that was in some breeders work for White Tigers.
Big Cat Rescue has a bit on it from right when the AZA started their ban, but doesn't go into the quote...I'm trying to find it. ( https://bigcatrescue.org/today-at-big-cat-rescue-aza-says-no-more-white-tigers-or-white-lions/ )
Several zoos that lose AZA accreditation start ignoring it and it becomes a draw there.
They are already Mutants even without Deformities. They should just only let the most healthy Animals breed and for this they need a well organized Breeding and Animal Exchange Plan.
As a veteran from the cetacean wars in the forums. I’m am pro cetacean for the same reason as @Leaf Productions said. I want more biodiversity and unique habitat building. I don’t care about if it’s realistic in captivity right now. If I want to build an older zoo or a marine park or role play that I’m a zoo that got cetacean husbandry right. Then who is anyone to say I can’t want them in the game and campaign for frontier to add them. As a company frontier just wants money. And cetaceans would sell... bottom line. Show a casual a dolphin or orca and they’ll eat it up. If frontier wanted to be modern about it make the requirements similar or better to great facilities like shedd aquarium or Georgia aquarium and make a statement in the zoopedia to educate people. But don’t take away my player choice
As a veteran of the ‘cetacean wars’ you should know that not a single person has ever (as far as I know) said that you can’t want cetaceans or campaign for them to be added. No one, other than the Devs, has the ability to either fulfil your desire for cetaceans, or to take away your player choice.
All that anyone has done is express their own opinions - no one is limiting your freedom to express what you want at all.
Most haven’t. I’ve had mostly civil conversations here. I’m not calling out anyone in particular. It’s also not happened to me in particular regarding cetacean conversations but I’ve seen other forum members be treated passive aggressively for wanting cetaceans
No one has. Even if they thought you shouldn’t want them it would quite literally be impossible for anyone to stop you wanting whatever you want, or to force their will on Frontier and limit your freedom. An argument, no matter how aggressive (passive or active), does neither of those things.
HERE is the white paper. The opening paragraph is:
“AZA Position Summary:
Breeding practices that increase the physical expression of single rare alleles (i.e., rare genetic traits) through intentional inbreeding, for example intentional breeding to achieve rare color-morphs such as white tigers, deer, and alligators, has been clearly linked with various abnormal, debilitating, and, at times, lethal, external and internal conditions and characteristics, which are outlined in this paper. Many of these conditions may seriously compromise the welfare of individual animals. In addition, such breeding practices are also problematic from a population management and conservation perspective, impairing our ability to develop and maintain sustainable captive populations for the future and to deliver appropriate animal welfare and conservation education messages.”
We’re agreeing mostly. I guess the wording wasn’t clear in the first post and I apologize I meant it more as a way of saying that regardless of other people’s opinion I and many others are going to want what we what. The sides don’t change and the conversation gets exhausting but no forum member should ever act like their opinion is more valid or important compared to another’s. I apologize if it’s long winded but the wording in the original was meant with that general attitude in mind