On cruise distances (aka "let's talk about inner-system jumps again")

[Shaamaan]

I decided to partake in the current CG to bring some specific rare goods for Olelbis. Now, I don't have a great memory for rares (despite making quite some money back in the day from them), so I really didn't know that 2 locations selling the required rare goods (out of 3 available) were just over 500k LS from the main star. I only found that out AFTER making the trip to each system (that one's on me, I could have checked this beforehand).

Whilst travelling, I asked myself... "what does this travel distance add to the game?" and, more importantly, "is this fun?"...

And sadly, the answer to the second question is "no, it's not really fun", and I had to struggle to come up answers to the first.

So, why the distances? I think these are the reasons:
- sense of scale
- encounters along the way
- USS?

Did I miss anything? I don't think so. Unfortunately, I would argue that all of these 3 points don't really work any more. And it's not like in Euro Truck, where one actually needs to DRIVE to get somewhere... in ED it's "align and go for a break for 15 minutes". Actually, it's worse, because of the changing speed you don't REALLY know how long a break it can be so you can't rely on the in-game "time-to" timer... Anyway I'll try to break down the 3 points above and why they aren't really good arguments...

1. Sense of scale:
Yes, that's a large distance... unfortunately, past a certain point (something like a few thousand LS) one loses track. This is compounded by the speed changing as you travel between the stars. The sense of scale is restored once you SEE the target stellar bodies and observe how they move about on your screen and grow. But when one's travelling 500k LS... well, it's just dots all the way and things get interesting only once you're actually THERE. Anyway, having the ability to jump between stars shouldn't REMOVE the ability to fly the distance manually, so...

2. Encounters:
Hands up who has been interdicted DURING a lengthy travel time. Not when nearing the target stellar body (i.e. during deceleration when the timer's at 0:06) but when flying between the stars at 1000+LS/s... Anyone? Didn't think so... Unless the AI cheats and spawns right behind you to interdict you instantly (which is a bad experience in an of itself), nothing will happen during that time. Perhaps some PVP then? But, barring some CG which sends everyone flying on a single, long-distance haul like that, I bet people avoid such distances in the first place, making this a bad place to find PVP action... and PVP interdictions will still be far easier near the start or end points of such a journey anyway...

3. USS:
Oh come on - USS are already bloody annoying RNG-generators... And approaching them during inner-star travel is as engaging as everywhere else, if not less.

Now, I really think such distances should be a novelty. Like Hutton - I wouldn't want to see it gone or "moved closer". So having a few places where you NEED to travel that long around the universe for the "LULz" would be perfectly fine. But in all other cases we should have a "jump to star" on our ships, as these large distances are by no means a rare occurrence. So far I think the only actual effect these systems have is cluttering up the mission tab and forcing everyone to double-check the LS distance before accepting a mission... Having inner-system "star-only" jumping capabilities won't remove the sense of scale or danger (orbits around a star can still be quite big, and that's perfectly fine). Unless I'm missing something here, and these extreme distances and travel times add something else to the game I'm not seeing?

 

[Dural]

Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.

 

[Shiro Akai]

Whilst travelling, I asked myself... "what does this travel distance add to the game?" and, more importantly, "is this fun?"...

So, why the distances? I think these are the reasons:
- sense of scale
- encounters along the way
- USS?

Lets start with the reasons:

- sense of scale
True, travelling hundred of thousands of Ls between two stellar bodies surely show the scale of single star system. Once you wish for such experience. Apart from that it's artificial time waster. You don't fly through star system just to admire it's grand emptiness. You fly through it to perform a task - get to planet surface, reach station to trade or get into resource site for mining or combat. Large scale of system is just a hindrance along the way. Nothing happens in the meantime, mentioned pirates are unable to interdict you while in cruise. It's as entertaining as watching paint dry.

FDEVs have funny way of showing scale. One one hand they require us to travel for 40 minutes flying straight just to get from A to B within one system, while allowing us to make 60 LYs jump within 30 seconds. Scale? Only to waste your time, for stars always look almost the same in size, no matter how small or big they are in reality. Sure, some are bigger and it's noticeable but their exclusion zone is mach farther away so the true scale is diminished.

- encounters
Totally agree. Interdictions happen at the very end of the entire journey or on the beginning, at the star if you stay too long. In between? Staring at distance counter going down.

- USS
Unless you are exactly for them you pay no attention en route. And even if you are for them, current mechanic is such you *must* fly for 200k Ls away from the star just to get proper ones to spawn.

Now, questions
"what does this travel distance add to the game?" and, more importantly, "is this fun?"

Repeat after me, slowly for it to sink in deep:
"We don't want to waste your time"
"(it) involves interesting and quality gameplay"
~FDEVs

 

[JesusRocks1988]

I decided to partake in the current CG to bring some specific rare goods for Olelbis. Now, I don't have a great memory for rares (despite making quite some money back in the day from them), so I really didn't know that 2 locations selling the required rare goods (out of 3 available) were just over 500k LS from the main star. I only found that out AFTER making the trip to each system (that one's on me, I could have checked this beforehand).

Whilst travelling, I asked myself... "what does this travel distance add to the game?" and, more importantly, "is this fun?"...

And sadly, the answer to the second question is "no, it's not really fun", and I had to struggle to come up answers to the first.

So, why the distances? I think these are the reasons:
- sense of scale
- encounters along the way
- USS?

Did I miss anything? I don't think so. Unfortunately, I would argue that all of these 3 points don't really work any more. And it's not like in Euro Truck, where one actually needs to DRIVE to get somewhere... in ED it's "align and go for a break for 15 minutes". Actually, it's worse, because of the changing speed you don't REALLY know how long a break it can be so you can't rely on the in-game "time-to" timer... Anyway I'll try to break down the 3 points above and why they aren't really good arguments...

1. Sense of scale:
Yes, that's a large distance... unfortunately, past a certain point (something like a few thousand LS) one loses track. This is compounded by the speed changing as you travel between the stars. The sense of scale is restored once you SEE the target stellar bodies and observe how they move about on your screen and grow. But when one's travelling 500LS... well, it's just dots all the way and things get interesting only once you're actually THERE. Anyway, having the ability to jump between stars shouldn't REMOVE the ability to fly the distance manually, so...

2. Encounters:
Hands up who has been interdicted DURING a lengthy travel time. Not when nearing the target stellar body (i.e. during deceleration when the timer's at 0:06) but when flying between the stars at 1000+LS/s... Anyone? Didn't think so... Unless the AI cheats and spawns right behind you to interdict you instantly (which is a bad experience in an of itself), nothing will happen during that time. Perhaps some PVP then? But, barring some CG which sends everyone flying on a single, long-distance haul like that, I bet people avoid such distances in the first place, making this a bad place to find PVP action... and PVP interdictions will still be far easier near the start or end points of such a journey anyway...

3. USS:
Oh come on - USS are already bloody annoying RNG-generators... And approaching them during inner-star travel is as engaging as everywhere else, if not less.

Now, I really think such distances should be a novelty. Like Hutton - I wouldn't want to see it gone or "moved closer". So having a few places where you NEED to travel that long around the universe for the "LULz" would be perfectly fine. But in all other cases we should have a "jump to star" on our ships, as these large distances are by no means a rare occurrence. So far I think the only actual effect these systems have is cluttering up the mission tab and forcing everyone to double-check the LS distance before accepting a mission... Having inner-system "star-only" jumping capabilities won't remove the sense of scale or danger (orbits around a star can still be quite big, and that's perfectly fine). Unless I'm missing something here, and these extreme distances and travel times add something else to the game I'm not seeing?

Okay you are actually raising some good points here, better points than I've seen in this request before, actually... Leaving the sense of scale aside for a second, you are absolutely right about the other things:

- Random encounters.
Interdictions can only occur when the target is within x-seconds of your ship (varies per interdictor module and engineering level), and not within a certain set distance in light seconds. So typically if you're doing one of these ultra long haul trips 200,000LS+ to the neighbouring companion system, you are going to be accelerating at a constant rate. Because Supercruise acceleration does not differ between ships and cannot be modified, it means that any pursuers cannot get within x-seconds of you until you start decelerating faster than they are, which only happens when you're getting within a few thousand light seconds of the companion system. So random encounters will not occur in the interstellar space unless you purposefully slow down and let them catch up. This kinda renders those distances a little bit pointless for the random encounters.

- USSs
Now that they're not so random in 3.3, we will know what they are before we get anywhere near them and know where they are, so we won't have these popping up randomly around the ship for us to just ignore (because let's be honest, who takes the time to drop into a random USS when they're already taking upwards of half an hour to Supercruise to the companion system?) So USSs become even less of a reason to endure the distance unless we want to.

But... System Scale.
This is the big one really, as many including myself really like the true to life distances and the way that they take so long even at significant multiples of the speed of light. It's one of those fascinating things and, yeah on the one hand it's not very convenient from a gaming point of view, but on the other hand, it does fit very nicely with the scale of the galaxy as a whole. But I do take your point that scale only really works when you have a point of reference. The fact is as you say, on the longest haul trips, the system bodies in front and behind you blend into the skybox for a significant amount of time, removing your sense of scale.

While I don't support micro jumping between stars from the entry point, one idea could be to have a synthesised Supercruise boost that you can prime but will only activate itself when you are over 10,000LS from the outermost orbit line. The boost would then push you instantly to 2001c and accelerate rapidly beyond that until you get just over ~10,000LS of the outermost orbit line of the companion system, at which point your speed would drop down to what would be normal for that position and you'd have to Supercruise in normally.
The boost recipe would be the most expensive in the game - slightly moreso than level 3 jumponium.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Another idea would be to have moddable Supercruise handling and acceleration, and for different grades of FSD to have different rates. E-rated being the slowest acceleration but least affected by gravity wells, and A-rated being by far the fastest but most affected by gravity wells. Engineering could include dramatically increasing resistance to gravity wells by sacrificing maximum cruise speed; better handling for more power draw etc... At least that way random encounters might stand a chance of happening in those interstellar regions.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

While I don't support micro jumping between stars from the entry point, one idea could be to have a synthesised Supercruise boost that you can prime but will only activate itself when you are over 10,000LS from the outermost orbit line. The boost would then push you instantly to 2001c and accelerate rapidly beyond that until you get just over ~10,000LS of the outermost orbit line of the companion system, at which point your speed would drop down to what would be normal for that position and you'd have to Supercruise in normally.
The boost recipe would be the most expensive in the game - slightly moreso than level 3 jumponium.

Going back to my idea here, if you still think this is totally OP, and still ruins the integrity of the Hutton Run, how about another limiter?

Your Boost Juice runs out after 2 millionLS. Hutton is what, 6 million give or take? So that's 3 boosts you'd have to perform in order to get there quicker. That's a lot of high grade materials, and by the time you've farmed enough of them to be able to do that's, you might as well have just done the Hutton Run the normal way.

My idea here is really to slightly cut down on the travel time in those systems that are typically between 100,000-500,000LS - they are the ones you'll typically run into while doing missions in the Bubble. And it doesn't cut the travel time altogether, but instead shaves some time off - reducing a half hour travel time down to lie ten minutes or something, which is still more than reasonable IMHO.

Lore justification for the 10,000LS distance limiter before the boost engages? It's experimental and extremely dangerous, creating such spacetime distortion that it could be hazardous to planetary life, so it's a safety feature for the ecosystems around you. Plus it means it could be accompanied by some really cool visual effects.

 

[Lestat]

Here a idea for the Op. Instead of asking for something like miro jumps. Wait until 3.3 is released and redo your idea.

 

[Ceekay]

If you're going to have in system jumps they'll need to expensive/difficult/dangerous....., for example you'll need a dedicated module (enter cool name here ), it'll need a lot of power, it will function only at Lagrange points and if you're out of position by more than say 10% it can cause significant damage or dump you at some random location in the system.

In general I agree with the OP although there's nothing wrong with reinforcing the scale of the galaxy beyond a certain point it doesn't do anything other than add a lot of waiting to get to your destination, for me anything that's more than 100,000 ls away can jolly well stay there! I'm not going to drop in for a look

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Here a idea for the Op. Instead of asking for something like miro jumps. Wait until 3.3 is released and redo your idea.

I didn't know 3.3 completely overhauled supercruise!

Amazing.


Anyhoo, OP, I suggested this idea - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...gation-Beacons-And-quot-Nav-Jumps-quot?page=1 - many times, it's a good balance between the risk of a micro jump, and the reward of getting somewhere faster. It's actually far more dangerous than it sounds. Lol

Lestat doesn't agree, of course.

 

[Factabulous]

Here a idea for the Op. Instead of asking for something like miro jumps. Wait until 3.3 is released and redo your idea.

Did someone say Miro jumps? I would be in favour of them

 

[Noctover]

Freelancer style hyperloop shipping lanes. Also give you a sense of life in the galaxy .

 

[rootsrat]

Please no micro jumps. I tried Star Citizen lately and they were one of the things I personally hated about it. It's just fast travel. Awful!

There may be not much to do in SC now, but in 3.3 there will be a) Persistent USS (which is a million time better system than we have now), b) A LOT of new places to visit, c) scenarios. Travelling across a system will be more interesting.

Please no micro jumps

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Please no micro jumps. I tried Star Citizen lately and they were one of the things I personally hated about it. It's just fast travel. Awful!

There may be not much to do in SC now, but in 3.3 there will be a) Persistent USS (which is a million time better system than we have now), b) A LOT of new places to visit, c) scenarios. Travelling across a system will be more interesting.

Please no micro jumps

They'd be optional, it's not like anyone would force you.

With the suggestion I posted, short trips, and visiting USSs and whatnot would still require supercruise, but you could trade off some danger to jump to a distant nav beacon and save yourself time. But it's still optional.

 

[JustJon]

No micro jumps

But just increase top speed, acceleration/deceleration rates and the distance at which the stars gravity well starts to influence speed.

 

[rootsrat]

They'd be optional, it's not like anyone would force you.

With the suggestion I posted, short trips, and visiting USSs and whatnot would still require supercruise, but you could trade off some danger to jump to a distant nav beacon and save yourself time. But it's still optional.

Your idea, I like a lot! It also makes total sense in terms of lore.

 

[Crazy Joe]

I personally would like to see inter-star hyper jumps. It makes no sense to me that the hyperjump is capable of jumping between stars in different star systems, but somehow isn't capable of jumping from one star to the next in a multiple star system.

If this is because of reasons of loading the next star system and can't be fixed so that hyperjumping also works for inside star system jumping, they should at least give us the option to select the star to jump to from another star system. Of course only for star systems that are known. That would save a lot of frustration when having to travel hundreds of thousands of light seconds because the planets are all around a distant secondary (tertiary etc) star.

 

[Velixar]

So you want to ruin pirates and bounty hunter game play?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

So you want to ruin pirates and bounty hunter game play?

Because you never find pirates or bounty hunters at nav beacons..!

 

[Ren Otani]

Guess I can add my two cents here

I'm against system jumps, and "like" the current system of supercruise
Now, you might be wondering why I put quotation marks at "like", that's because, well... Supercruise is boring!
"But Ren, now you're just being confusing!" I hear you say. Lemme explain.

You know how in life, you gotta take the bad with the good, to make life more worth living for? Supercruise for me is such a thing. It could be argued that that is a wrong analogy, since supercruise is uneventful opposed to "bad events", but I'd wager that's just semantics.

The point is, boring old supercruise is what makes Elite Dangerous, Elite Dangerous! It adds it's own little personal flavour and personality.(Then again, I'm that weirdo that absolutely loves late 90's-early 2000's crappy 3D-graphics) I don't like having to wait a literal half-our to go to the other side of a solar system, but every time I do get there, it leaves me with a feeling of success. I made it.

So, instead of removing this traveltime, why not give us some more to do? Galnet was already a nice addition, I always pull up the news when in transit to a far-away point in a solar system. The upcoming codex seems like another something like that.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

So you want to ruin pirates and bounty hunter game play?

I don't think you've understood what the OP is getting at... Ultra long haul trips don't offer pirate or bounty hunter gameplay because when you're in open space going at full throttle, you can't do interdicting - you'll be just chasing behind your quarry for half an hour before they start to decelerate and you can finally get within range of them. Supercruising those long distances do not enable interdictions - they only work at the beginning or end of the trip.