On foot: The biggest anti-climax ever

[Shabine]

No, what I mean is that there are games that run in first person and games that use a different perspective.

"Shooter" is genre - perspective defines how you experience the world.

Yeah, fair enough. While I think Odyssey does contain an element of FPS games, Elite itself is probably best described simply as a "space sim" in that it "simulates" a hypothetical life in space. I find myself referring to Odyssey's FPS component as "ground combat". It just makes more sense to do it that way.

Sorry, I was having flashbacks to a 250+ page Steam thread about whether Fallout 4 was an RPG, a FPS with RPG elements, an RPG with FPS gameplay, an interactive story-driven narrative, or a mod platform.

I took the position that it was, in fact, a meat popsicle. The other people in that thread did not appreciate my contributions.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Yeah, fair enough. While I think Odyssey does contain an element of FPS games, Elite itself is probably best described simply as a "space sim" in that it "simulates" a hypothetical life in space. I find myself referring to Odyssey's FPS component as "ground combat". It just makes more sense to do it that way.

Sorry, I was having flashbacks to a 250+ page Steam thread about whether Fallout 4 was an RPG, a FPS with RPG elements, an RPG with FPS gameplay, an interactive story-driven narrative, or a mod platform.

I took the position that it was, in fact, a meat popsicle. The other people in that thread did not appreciate my contributions.

Badically the space sime, the flight simulator are predominantly 1st person. I wonder if that's why FD refused to put in external cam for years? It'd be kinda weird to have the leg part in different perspective. I think for simplicity many just call it a FPS even when there is no shooting involved.

 

[Monk]

Today I learned malus isn't just the genus of the apple tree. A couple posts are really confusing in that context!

But there are plenty of first person games that don't involve shooting anything. You wouldn't call Amnesia a "FPS game" would you? That would be silly. As far as I know, FPS is a term used to describe a game that is focused entirely on shooting things. DOOM, COD and Battlefield... these are FPS titles, because the 'S' is the one thing that ties them all together.

If we're going purely by perspective, then House Flipper is a FPS! This is what happens when we generalize too much. All the categories just bleed into one another and become meaningless.

Note that many CMDRs called it space legs for the longest time (and still do). That left it pretty ambiguous on what players wanted out of the feature, and I think that's the correct assessment. The playstyles in Elite are so varied to the point of opposition to one another when it comes to the future of the game. Market testing probably showed that going the combat route gets more impressions and purchases. So that's where FDev prioritizes development and marketing.

Same with ED 1.0 ... combat was much more fleshed out than exploration (though I do very much miss the rudimentary nature exploration had back then) or trading. Heck, trading still lacks in-game tools that even do a fraction of what INARA or EDDB can provide. The launch marketing was almost 100% combat with some rad rock'n'roll

But, the other features did eventually get more love and attention, maybe not as much as some of us would like...but its there. Someone at FDev cares about it! I think they'll get around to fleshing out more non-combat things in Odyssey (though not w/o combat enhancements to build hype).

 

[Darrack]

They do that because they understand that PvP is what keeps players on the long-term

Really? only a fraction of the player base must be into PvP because we never here owt about it.
Of the 40 or so players i am friends with exactly zero have any interest in PvP at all.

O7

 

[Globusdiablo]

I was really looking forward to being able to move about on foot in Elite Dangerous Oddysey. I thought it would be about as good as the average FPS but in fact it must be the worst FPS I have ever played making the on foot part of Oddysey completely unplayable. I was for example exploring an empty settlement yesterday. I noticed there was a lot of explosive barrels standing about inside the settlement when a ship landed. A few people exited the ship an attacked me right away. I managed to score quite a few head shots with my Manticore rifle but they didn't seem to care about it. I blew up barrel after barrel they stood next to but they didn't even flinch from the explosions. What were they? Gods? They were not even soldier or security, the were low life pirates. When they hit me I was dead within three shots even though my shields were active. How is that for difficult?

Another thing is that you can find building at POI:s. They would be good places to explore on foot, at least I had counted on being able to do so. Instead they are completly impossible to enter. If the building has a door it's an inanimate object. I wouldn't care about not able to fight on foot if you could actually do some exploring. As it is now I will not play Elite Dangerous again until the on foot system has had a major overhaul.

Just stick to Legacy. It's a better game.

 

[Chaparral]

As I said the on foot part of Odyssey in only a tiny part of the entire game, it would be like me refusing to play LOTRO because the Rohirimm Horse Riding part is, to put it bluntly, awful and few people actually bother with it!

The Lord of the Rings Online/Initial release date
April 24, 2007
Elite Dangerous: Odyssey/Initial release date
May 19, 2021
One should be able to expection more given the progression in machines and software.

 

[metatheurgist]

Is it wrong that I'm enjoying the brutalization of the definition of FPS like the same that happened to RPG?

 

[varonica]

The Lord of the Rings Online/Initial release date
April 24, 2007
Elite Dangerous: Odyssey/Initial release date
May 19, 2021
One should be able to expection more given the progression in machines and software.

Rohirrim riding trait released in 2013, but whatever it doesn't matter, the thing is it isn't about better machines and software, it's about decisions made on how to implement a mechanic or feature in a game, it's about people and decisions, not about machines and software. They could have implemented the riding far differently, they chose not to, FDEV could have implemented the FPS side of Odyssey far differently, they chose not to! That's what it's all about, the decisions made by the people, not the capability of the machines and software. LOTRO is still releasing updates, but the Rohirrim riding trait remains the same, expect the same for Odyssey.

 

[Morbad]

The mission runner/looter in a maverick suit is no match for the guy looking for a fight in a Dominator suit.

Sure they are. You just stay away from/outpace the dominator suit until it's batteries run out. The Dominator is utterly obnoxious to use anywhere except a powered up settlement because of battery capacity.

Of course, they can go back to their ship (or just never get out) or catch you off guard, but either of those scenarios negates any suit-level equipment advantage anyway.

DOOM, COD and Battlefield... these are FPS titles, because the 'S' is the one thing that ties them all together.

I'd argue that that ED ship combat (and certainly EDO infantry combat) has more in common with COD or Battlefield than COD or Battlefield have in common with Doom. Doom is a '2.5D' game that didn't even have mouselook in it's earliest incarnations.

Of the 40 or so players i am friends with exactly zero have any interest in PvP at all.

There a more than a hundred CMDRs on my CMDR's friends list who haven't logged on in years because they were predominantly PvP players. A solid two-thirds of the people I knew who played the game left between 2.0 and 2.2 due to the massive upheaval in gameplay mechanisms that resulted in the game bearing only superficial resemblance to what came before.

Anyway, making generalizations about the player base as a whole with only our own perspectives as a sample size is going to leave out enormous swaths of players, even if one happens to find themselves in the loose majority.

As I said the on foot part of Odyssey in only a tiny part of the entire game, it would be like me refusing to play LOTRO because the Rohirimm Horse Riding part is, to put it bluntly, awful and few people actually bother with it!

I stopped playing LOTRO when they removed monster play, which was the only thing I enjoyed about that game.

 

[Shabine]

I'd argue that that ED ship combat (and certainly EDO infantry combat) has more in common with COD or Battlefield than COD or Battlefield have in common with Doom. Doom is a '2.5D' game that didn't even have mouselook in it's earliest incarnations.

DOOM.

As for ED ship combat, I'm not sure why you'd liken it to what traditionally constitutes a FPS rather than, say, any combat flight simulator ever made. Nobody refers to IL-2 Sturmovik as a "first person shooter". This is kinda what I mean by categories bleeding into one another for the sake of making a point that I don't really understand the point of. Not saying you're doing this Morbad, it's just that you can call a moldy peach a "ripe orange" if you really want to. I mean, they're both fruit, right?

The problem with saying Odyssey has any sort of FPS component means you need to compare it to other FPS games. And that's probably not a good thing for Odyssey. That's why I'm going with "ground combat". It's so that I don't have to hold it to a standard that will make it look like simplistic trash.

 

[Morbad]

DOOM.

I was thinking of the 1993 game, which is the one I have the most experience with.

As for ED ship combat, I'm not sure why you'd liken it to what traditionally constitutes a FPS rather than, say, any combat flight simulator ever made. Nobody refers to IL-2 Sturmovik as a "first person shooter".

ED feels very simplistic for a flight sim and more arcadey flight/space combat games emphasize shooter over sim. I'd argue that space combat in ED is significantly closer to Descent (which is basically a 6DoF Quake) than IL-2.

The problem with saying Odyssey has any sort of FPS component means you need to compare it to other FPS games. And that's probably not a good thing for Odyssey. That's why I'm going with "ground combat". It's so that I don't have to hold it to a standard that will make it look like simplistic trash.

You don't need to hold it to this standard, the game does that on it's own. There are many other aspects to EDO's on-foot gameplay than combat, but combat is featured very prominently and is quite clearly intended to be similar to other first person shooters, especially sci-fi tactical shooters. It looks like them and it has the same basic mechanisms they have. It tries to emulate their gameplay when it comes to CZs and most missions where combat is likely. It even borrows from their aesthetic conventions.

Here are two games (with two examples of each) that I'm sure many people would find outwardly quite similar:

Source: https://youtu.be/0d2Kt7IQtfA?t=209

Source: https://youtu.be/Oy4koiKdoP0?t=257

Source: https://youtu.be/hwosoGhfYSQ?t=44

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3790mURq3Q


That Takada laser rifle (which is the first weapon many of us experience, via the tutorial) sure set up some unflattering comparisons with Planetside 2.

And one that is outwardly less alike, but is, primarily, unquestionably, an FPS and still has pervasive similarities:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYMBp8FlIWw


Describing Odyssey as a first-person shooter is not wrong, or even particularly misleading, unless one expects one genre to exclude others, which is not something I've considered reasonable in video games since cross-genre games became common a quarter century ago. The game is a first person shooter, but it's not just a first person shooter.

 

[Shabine]

The game is a first person shooter, but it's not just a first person shooter.

I don't think we see things quite the same way, but that's not an issue. This statement right here makes perfect sense. I get it.

Although, the videos you posted kinda just reinforced what I was already worried about, which is that engaging in EDO ground combat might make me wish that I was playing PlanetSide 2 instead. It just looks so much better. In almost every way.

 

[Ryox]

Really? only a fraction of the player base must be into PvP because we never here owt about it.
Of the 40 or so players i am friends with exactly zero have any interest in PvP at all.

My point was that Odyssey's on-foot combat is tuned / balanced for PvP. That's why all of you PvE players feel frustrated by the PvE gameplay.

Darrack, you maybe should start to hang out with other people than your 40 friends. Go check outside of this forum and go dig into the many Discord servers around and you'll find a very vigorous PvP community.

Maybe you should talk to my 300 friends on my EOFCC's discord that will tell you that they want PvP.

I don't say that PvP is a larger community than PvE. I'm just saying that it's a great one.

 

[Brrokk]

Rohirrim riding trait released in 2013, but whatever it doesn't matter, the thing is it isn't about better machines and software, it's about decisions made on how to implement a mechanic or feature in a game, it's about people and decisions, not about machines and software. They could have implemented the riding far differently, they chose not to, FDEV could have implemented the FPS side of Odyssey far differently, they chose not to! That's what it's all about, the decisions made by the people, not the capability of the machines and software. LOTRO is still releasing updates, but the Rohirrim riding trait remains the same, expect the same for Odyssey.

Those war steeds in LOTRO are the same for me. I also play LOTRO and also can't be bothered with the war steed.

They were an inevitable game feature. When the game progressed to Rohan, fighting on horseback was a must. And then, the feature wrote itself. A war horse would have to have steering inertia to distinguish it from ordinary horses. The horsy people avidly waiting for it would ridicule it if it didn't have four speeds (gaits). There had to be a skill element and gear, so learnable mounted combat options and upgradeable saddle gear were needed. All this had to be done, even though the game engine hadn't been designed for it.

I find the parallels with space legs quite compelling.

Luckily both features are tacked on: you can play LOTRO perfectly well without the annoying horse and you can stay in your space ship in ED.

 

[SteveWW57]

Sure they are. You just stay away from/outpace the dominator suit until it's batteries run out. The Dominator is utterly obnoxious to use anywhere except a powered up settlement because of battery capacity.

Of course, they can go back to their ship (or just never get out) or catch you off guard, but either of those scenarios negates any suit-level equipment advantage anyway.

So I did run away, get shot and killed as I could not out pace the Dominator. His batteries lasted longer than mine, and he could switch his off until a time I attempted to turn around and shoot.

I am still left in the situation of having the suit and gear less suited to combat, no access to the SRV or ship, whilst the enemy's is on the ground.

Basically he was just spoiling my game play and making me waste time and effort.

Steve

 

[Globusdiablo]

...The game is a mediocre first person shooter, but it's not just a mediocre first person shooter.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Northpin]

CP2077 is mostly a shooter

Actually CP2077 is an RPG since its focus it playing and developing a character though ingame means (levels, skills, abilities, traits, etc.)
Valorant is a shooter

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Actually CP2077 is an RPG since its focus it playing and developing a character though ingame means (levels, skills, abilities, traits, etc.)
Valorant is a shooter

Let's just settle on: It is both. Forget the "mostly" - ill-placed fillword.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Oh, is CP2077 a game you play?

 

[Northpin]

Here are two games (with two examples of each) that I'm sure many people would find outwardly quite similar:

There are definitely similarities.

Planetside is a Shooter. Albeit a pretty special one, but still a Shooter.
Ground CZ in Odyssey is a shooter (however, a ground CZ is not a game.)

But while Planetside is a game, a ground GZ in Odyssey is an extremely small, like really really really small part of the Odyssey and it happens as a result of a BGS war and it serves the main purpose as a BGS tool used to win/lose BGS wars and flip settlements as the result of the actions during the war.

There is absolutely no comparation between Planetside as a game and Odyssey as a game.
Pretty much like watching Alec doing a Pomeche run does not make Odyssey a racing/car game like Forza Horizon