On my seeming constant disconnect with "The Forum"

Interestingly, in another thread, a poster made the observation about one of my posts "they aren't bothered about others" with respect to the performance issues on Odyssey - it was 100% correct, I am not bothered in the least as I'm more concerned in getting the best possible performance of the DLC (which has issues enough to be very challenging!) to enable me to play it at a reasonable FPS. Is that unkind of me? I don't know if it is - had anyone who claimed to run 20 FPS on an obviously superior PC asked for my settings I'd gladly share them, but if they didn't have the same result as my own, there is nothing else I can do, is there?

Odyssey, as released, has a bunch of performance issues, from comments made there are obviously people who cannot play as they wish and others who can. Are the ones that can, and do, enjoy playing the DLC unreasonable because they are able to do something that others are unable to do?

Edit: missing word, spelling.

Hard to say,

For me its switched from a couple of criticisms I made to people ceiticislzong me for defending myself from the misrepresentations of the people I criticized, who evidently can't engage in good faith.

Really pretty funny. Apparently if we do anything other than criticize the game we are bad.


Sorry folks, I don't need to be in the angry user tribe. I've got some bugs, but more stuff works than doesn't and the new content is loads of fun.

I'd have preferred they don't update the map ui. Or the ship build but the new tools work, be careful with your purchases though, its too easy to sell engineered modules by accident.

To the folks who don't agree saying things like "this has ruined the game" is hyperbole, I'll invite you to enjoy a remedial English class somewhere.

If a game is playable it can't be ruined. At best your enjoyment might be, but since others are having fun thats a you problem. Harden up a little and see if the problem is on your machine or settings, especially if you bought a pre-built box and didn't build your own.
 
Really pretty funny. Apparently if we do anything other than criticize the game we are bad
Indeed so, some of our forumites really do get in a tizzy with me because I make light of the issues (while admitting they exist) but am not 'foaming at the mouth' but am playing and having fun, which is very strange. (fun too, as my posts may reflect!)

I've just played a 40 minute session which I streamed, just in case anyone was looking for some 'just game', ended up getting in the slammer for arc cutting a SRV - that was fun as I'd not been in the 'new' prisons - amazing!

Now I'll just play a little more, hopefully not messing up the mission, as there are still a few layouts I've not seen yet.

Enjoy Odyssey, have fun, and - like me - hope that tomorrow's patch has some optimisation added ;)
 
Hard to say,

For me its switched from a couple of criticisms I made to people ceiticislzong me for defending myself from the misrepresentations of the people I criticized, who evidently can't engage in good faith.

Lol that's hard to say indeed.
 
...

Enjoy Odyssey, have fun, and - like me - hope that tomorrow's patch has some optimisation added ;)

Yup I was streaming for a friend on discord. So I've gotten another to buy Odyssey.

As a nice touch the settlement I was reactivating was filled with dead folks, fires.. fun stuff. The timer on fire damage didn't start till after I got the power up and could mess with the emviromentals...

Had another mission where I needed to assinate some lady, got to sneek up through the rocks, crept in, found her, and was entertainingly chased as I got out again.

The game could do with some optimization, but I could also mess with my settings I suppose.
 
Would you even know what your frame rate was if you didn't hit Ctrl F?

Of course I would.

30fps on a system where the CPU can keep up, in a DX11 game, is 90ms of extra input-to-display latency. In ED, this feels like moving my viewport through molases, walking on ice, or playing as Luigi in Super Mario Bros. In Horizons I can at least cap the queue depth to 1, but if I do this in Odyssey it turns into a stuttery mess.

It's also 30 meters (an entire ship length) per frame in my CMDR's racing Viper, or any other similarly fast vessel. Which is nausea inducing levels of terrible at low altitude, and would also get me a crap ton of rebuys if I tried to actually play that way. Much better when I can keep frame rate near my display's peak refresh rate.

I'm also using a not particularly high-end VA panel. Contrast is great, but the overdrive setting needs to be used to keep blur under control and it needs to be set for the refresh rate the display is currently at, or it will induce very annoying overshoot. I could turn VRR off, but then I'd get tearing, so the lower bound of good performance on this display is about 70, unless I want to cap frame rate significantly below peak.
 
Of course I would.

30fps on a system where the CPU can keep up, in a DX11 game, is 90ms of extra input-to-display latency. In ED, this feels like moving my viewport through molases, walking on ice, or playing as Luigi in Super Mario Bros. In Horizons I can at least cap the queue depth to 1, but if I do this in Odyssey it turns into a stuttery mess.

Are you insinuating that you are capable of detecting a NINETY MILLISECOND delay in input to display?
 
This summer will be my fourth year on the forum and a little more than that in game and with the release of Odyssey, I find myself - again - at loggerheads with the forum zeitgeist. I have never in my life had such cognitive disconnect and seen such a disparity of what I am told is "happening" in a game vs. what I am experiencing.

For years it was the "Open is a gankfest and is ruining the game" rhetoric. At the time I was on XBox and I thought to myself, it must be happening on PC. Well, I migrated to PC a few years ago and I find myself largely unganked. Sure, there are seal clubbers and murderhobo's out there, but I see them very rarely...even in Deciat.

And now, it's reached a fever pitch. Whether it's demanding public apologies or wielding the word "refund" as a cudgel, the carping and shouting has just become too much. I keep seeing that the game is "literally unplayable." "FPS is garbage" "Cancer"...what have you. Even system chat is littered with people moaning. I can't escape it.

And here I am, on an i7, 16gb RAM, GTX 1070 several year old laptop and....well....the game is running just fine. Sure, it was a little stutter-ish in the tutorial during the firefight, but it was certainly playable. Not a single Orange Sidewinder, nothing. I don't particularly like the UI, but I suppose it's more that it's just different than anything else. Although it did take me a fair few minutes to work out how to put a stored module back on a ship.

Obviously, people are having issues. I don't think they're making it up...at least I hope they aren't. To be frank, I can't help but think a lot of this is self inflicted. If Horizons was already running poorly on your machine then maybe that's why Odyssey is a slideshow. And how that is anyone's fault other than your own is beyond me.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this post is now that I'm several paragraphs in, other than to say that I like Odyssey and I wish people would simmer down. So much strong language is being thrown around and I think we are forgetting that there's a human presence behind all this that must be taking a beating. I've bought my suits, done a few missions, and am largely pleased...I guess I'm just sorry that the rest of the forum isn't.


Fly aimless, CMDR's. o7
Well, a couple of points OP...

1) The overwhelming flood of negativity all but guarantees EDO has some pretty strong underlying issues. It's not just a hardware issue and, increasingly, a good deal of external research is showing that EDO is indeed not optimized, hence the disparate impact it's having. Disparate...but largely negative. If enough people scream down a game, it's because enough people - beyond even the torch and pitchfork crowd following your favorite trolls - are having a bad time.

Frontier screwed up. It happens. Especially with a marketing campaign built with sales - not customer satisfaction and retention - in mind. It's just how the games business goes now for big studios, which Frontier is, contrary to certain opinions.


2) Squeaky wheels make noise, oiled wheels don't. This has been the case for time immemorial...even before 'forums' existed (like, back when dial-up was a thing, gasp, really old stuff). Anyone expecting even 10% of forums to be filled with positivity severely misunderstands why forums exists. They are not for praise (though they can give it, as you have) but for discussion and ranting. It's what they do. If you don't like it, don't engage in it...that's exactly how old-world forums literally worked: enter the debate, or don't. You lose nothing by avoiding the conflicts that are inevtiable. Your voice - positive or negative - can be heard by the developer in ways far beyond the forums.

Play the game. Or don't. Buy it, or don't. Review it, or don't. Companies collect your opinion a thousand different ways than just the forums. It doesn't mean the forums are more - or less - important. They're just the most public-facing avenue by which information is collected and sorted. What they (the company) chooses to listen to/agree with is entirely behind closed doors or represented in their product. FDev doesn't publicly condone ganking, but the game clearly allows for it six years on. FDev doesn't publicly discourage get-rich schemes and material farming, but the game clearly gets modified - regularly - to squash these.


3) I've said it a thousand times across hundreds of game forums...nobody asked you to defend the product. YOU DIDN'T BUILD IT. Why anyone rushes to the defense - or even tacitly defends - a company is beyond me. It doesn't mean your silence is accepting unfair criticism. Hardly. For the vast majority of entertainment products, silence = good news. In the absence of critique (most of which will be inherently negative), a company has sales figures to give them the best indicator of their work. If you like a company's product, BUY IT. That's how you support them, not trying to fight internet chat room wars.

If you DON'T like a product, use the appropriate channels - that's why this forum exists - and, of course, if severe enough don't buy the product or get a refund. That action alone speaks volumes more than pages and pages of forums. Braben is not apologizing because of these forums. He's apologizing because EDO is getting slammed on steam by confirmed paid and refunded consumers. Not one article has implied EDO is being review bombed because it isn't.

This is GOOD, by the way. You want a company (or product) you care about to get solid feedback from paid consumers like you. If it stinks...you want them to know. If it's great, they don't need you to tell them so: your purchase was ample evidence enough. FDev is not some indie studio that gets excited over boxes of cookies sent by fans, or a billboard paid for across from their office. They are a producer level company, publicly traded, filled with as many suits and ties as passionate developers who can quit and work for someone else if they so choose.


If you want to help FDev - or Elite and EDO - vote with your wallet, leave a review of your experience in the appropriate channel (where you buy it, not here) - and then bask in the amazing silence of not caring what some other consumer thinks about the product you hate/love.

If you want to partake in the forums, be prepared for lots of negativity centered on debates that the consumer really has no impact on the outcome of. Aside from helping the company understand what we're debating and why it might matter to their product's future.
 
Gaming, for some, is a form of escapism. Now imagine you want to escape something and end up in something worse...
Fair enough, and I'm sure that's true for some for some, or all of the time, but don't project your pent up frustrations onto the Devs because now you're faced with not being able to escape from the issues you can't / won't deal with. That's not their fault, or responsibility.
 
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If it's great, they don't need you to tell them so: your purchase was ample evidence enough.
Yep. People like me pre-ordered the game. That's because I really liked their previous product and had enough trust in FD to pre-order. I have never pre-ordered a game before. Ever. And next time I won't. FD probably knows full well that next release pre-orders will be less than otherwise could have been. The fan-base will be less trusting, more cautious.
 
Are you insinuating that you are capable of detecting a NINETY MILLISECOND delay in input to display?

I'm rather astounded that you're insinuating that you cannot detect a near tenth of a second of latency.

90ms is solidly double or triple the threshold of perception for most people, at least.

When it comes to direct dragging (which is the equivalent to mouse look in a first person game), even ~10ms latency differentials has been shown to be perceptible (and that performance can be affected even below the perception threshold):
https://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~attig/Attig-Rauh-Franke-Krems_2017_LatencyGuidelines.pdf - page 8
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3095496/ - this one has a focus on VR and suggests a 5ms threshold for imperceptibility.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCbSTj7LjJg

(another paper, probably behind a paywall, is in description)

If you can't perceive a ~67ms differential (the difference between the default queue depth and the low latency modes available in either AMD or NVIDIA's drivers at 30 fps) in a first-person direct mouselook game, you are an extreme outlier.

If required I can find plenty more sources, or you can just look at the lists of citations in the papers above.

Honestly, I was under the impression this was fairly common knowledge with the rise of touchscreen phones, and common knowledge for most gamers since the Quake III Arena era.

I'm no where near as latency sensitive as some, but a 20ms increase to my input-to-display latency is something that is immediately obvious to me.
 
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Of course I would.

30fps on a system where the CPU can keep up, in a DX11 game, is 90ms of extra input-to-display latency. In ED, this feels like moving my viewport through molases, walking on ice, or playing as Luigi in Super Mario Bros. In Horizons I can at least cap the queue depth to 1, but if I do this in Odyssey it turns into a stuttery mess.

It's also 30 meters (an entire ship length) per frame in my CMDR's racing Viper, or any other similarly fast vessel. Which is nausea inducing levels of terrible at low altitude, and would also get me a crap ton of rebuys if I tried to actually play that way. Much better when I can keep frame rate near my display's peak refresh rate.

I'm also using a not particularly high-end VA panel. Contrast is great, but the overdrive setting needs to be used to keep blur under control and it needs to be set for the refresh rate the display is currently at, or it will induce very annoying overshoot. I could turn VRR off, but then I'd get tearing, so the lower bound of good performance on this display is about 70, unless I want to cap frame rate significantly below peak.

Once you play Elite Dangerous Horizons with OLED or VA you can't go back to TN or IPS though. Motion blur be damned. Space is black, not blue or grey.
 
Once you play Elite Dangerous Horizons with OLED or VA you can't go back to TN or IPS though. Motion blur be damned. Space is black, not blue or grey.

Yeah, that's why I want one of those second gen Samsung VA panels. ~3ms actual pixel response time and a 240Hz maximum refresh rate. The revised versions with FALD will probably cost me a kidney though.
 
Once you play Elite Dangerous Horizons with OLED or VA you can't go back to TN or IPS though. Motion blur be damned. Space is black, not blue or grey.
Nope. It's full of stars, and probably very white near the center of the galaxy. It's only black when you live in a city, with a spotlight 3m away of your face.
 
Take a step back and look at how ridiculous this statement is. Would you even know what your frame rate was if you didn't hit Ctrl F? I only found out about that function in this thread. Come to find out my game is routinely dropping into the 30's planetside and only topping out at 60 in supercruise

Yes I would have a rough idea of my frame rate without pressing Ctrl F.

On my regular crappy monitor:

+50fps -> Smooth as silk.

40-50fps -> Good.

30fps-40fps -> Okay.

20fps-30fps -> Bad.

10fps- 20fps -> Sucky.
 
Nope. It's full of stars, and probably very white near the center of the galaxy. It's only black when you live in a city, with a spotlight 3m away of your face.

Do you say this every time someone mentions "out in the black"? :(

I didn't mean it was supposed to be black everywhere.
 
Do you say this every time someone mentions "out in the black"? :(

I didn't mean it was supposed to be black everywhere.
I say it because it's a misconception, and we have a black skybox now that is unrealistically dark, and I hope it's changed back.

I'm sorry if I'm a bit defensive on that.
 
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