One of the handful of Piracy activities we can engage in, Megaship scenarios, is not functioning correctly (and may never have been)

I know engaging in Piracy is fairly niche in comparison to most activities but bear with me here. Megaships are one of the few things that give systems dynamic activities that come and go over time, since they literally come and go over time. Which is why I feel like it would be nice for this to get a bit more attention. The current issue they are facing (and this may have always been broken as far as I know) is that the attackers can never advance their objective. I think the best way to explain this is to compare to installation raids with similar cargo theft objectives.

In installation raids, you also have the usual pirates fighting security and then you have Deadly Condas and Pythons that spawn with hatch breakers and collectors and they will advance to the installation's cargo bays, break them open, collect the cargo, and then wake out. The raiders win the scenario if enough cargo is stolen.

Now when it comes to the megaship scenarios with the same cargo theft objectives, the same Deadly Python and Condas with the same hatchbreaker and collector loadouts spawn, BUT they do nothing but passively drift around the megaship, as if their AI cannot find the cargo bays they are supposed to attack. They do not aggress the player or NPCs that attack them either, and will passively drift around until their hull reaches some threshold and they try to wake out. Even if a player fully empties out the cargo bays, unless a pirate scoops up the cargo and jumps out, the objective does not advance. Taking out all the turrets and power capacitors, wiping out security and fully emptying the cargo bays does not prompt them to start stealing the cargo.

I say "may never have been" because I honestly do not remember a time when pirates ever won a megaship raid. Installation scenarios yes, but never megashp scenarios. I had figured I was just clearing them quick enough, until I actually tried siding with the raiders recently.

If anyone has any additional information on this issue, such as, does it work with certain megaships but not others, is there some method of getting those deadly condas/pythons to find the cargo bays or pick up the dropped cargo, I would love to know!

Edit: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/76314 Forgot to include the link
 
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It "worked" originally, in that they would at least attempt to collect the cargo. Of course it was still hilariously unbalanced , so they still didn't manage to get their big haul of like 3000cr of cargo unless the stars aligned. All of the stars.
 
Well, piracy was always on paper a really interesting path, but sadly FD doesn't care anymore about "finished features". No, in fact, they do everything they can to siphon the last drop of fun out of these activities.

What piracy SEVERLY needs is:
  • Blackmarkets should have BETTER prices instead of worse! The whole "markup thingy because illegal wuhuu" is crazy because stealing is much more dangerous than mining / trading. Also, there are several boni just because of PP2 for traders. So that needs to go, asap.
  • Missions that need you to source things (illegally) should spawn special ships for you to intercept that have these goods.
  • There should be a new kind of limpet: The Stabilizer Limpet. That limpet acts like a railgun: You aim with a fixed "gun", you need to hold the trigger for 5 seconds and then the limpet will be shot with a speed of 800 m/s towards the target ship, stopping it and cancel rotation, bringing it to full hold and prevent engine repair for whatever seconds depending of the class.
  • There should be silos near planet installations that can be cracked to steal from them
  • And more I guess, but I'm tired now
 
Well, piracy was always on paper a really interesting path, but sadly FD doesn't care anymore about "finished features". No, in fact, they do everything they can to siphon the last drop of fun out of these activities.

What piracy SEVERLY needs is:
  • Blackmarkets should have BETTER prices instead of worse! The whole "markup thingy because illegal wuhuu" is crazy because stealing is much more dangerous than mining / trading. Also, there are several boni just because of PP2 for traders. So that needs to go, asap.
  • Missions that need you to source things (illegally) should spawn special ships for you to intercept that have these goods.
  • There should be a new kind of limpet: The Stabilizer Limpet. That limpet acts like a railgun: You aim with a fixed "gun", you need to hold the trigger for 5 seconds and then the limpet will be shot with a speed of 800 m/s towards the target ship, stopping it and cancel rotation, bringing it to full hold and prevent engine repair for whatever seconds depending of the class.
  • There should be silos near planet installations that can be cracked to steal from them
  • And more I guess, but I'm tired now
Absolutely. Space is the wild west, and there should be more ways to interact with the massive scale of economic activity and steal stuff/pirate stuff, and a thriving network of black markets.
 
Well, piracy was always on paper a really interesting path, but sadly FD doesn't care anymore about "finished features". No, in fact, they do everything they can to siphon the last drop of fun out of these activities.

What piracy SEVERLY needs is:
  • Blackmarkets should have BETTER prices instead of worse! The whole "markup thingy because illegal wuhuu" is crazy because stealing is much more dangerous than mining / trading. Also, there are several boni just because of PP2 for traders. So that needs to go, asap.
  • Missions that need you to source things (illegally) should spawn special ships for you to intercept that have these goods.
  • There should be a new kind of limpet: The Stabilizer Limpet. That limpet acts like a railgun: You aim with a fixed "gun", you need to hold the trigger for 5 seconds and then the limpet will be shot with a speed of 800 m/s towards the target ship, stopping it and cancel rotation, bringing it to full hold and prevent engine repair for whatever seconds depending of the class.
  • There should be silos near planet installations that can be cracked to steal from them
  • And more I guess, but I'm tired now
You really don't need to slow down the target ship much or at all. The trick is to use targeted collector limpets. They moved dramatically faster than the non-targeted variant, with the one downside of only lasting for one collection, but because each collection is collecting one unit of cargo, that doesn't matter in this case. All you really have to do is fire off a hatch breaker, wait for it to get done packing, then fire another hatch breaker, and then Target each individual piece of cargo as it comes out, and because you had just fired your hatch breaker, your cargo hatch will already be active, allowing you to instantly fire off as many additional collector limpets as you want.

Piracy can actually be quite profitable in the right circumstances, unfortunately that has to do predominantly with stealing low temperature diamonds, but the fact that most Commodities aren't worth stealing has little to do with piracy in and of itself, and far more to do with a bizarre trade system where trading gets you like 10x to 100x return on investment. Properly, controlled Goods like progenitor cells or Advanced medicines should be extremely expensive, and only provide marginal return on investment. That way the profit margins could remain largely the same as presently, but stealing them becomes far more worthwhile.
 
These activites, despite being the "premier activity" in terms of interactions and mechanics, have been neglected and overlooked ever since they were first introduced.

Unsurprising these continue to get overlooked just like USS, scenarios, many mission variants and other things, because players focus on the absurd payouts of things like A->B hauling or massacre stacking.

What a waste of assets.
 
These activites, despite being the "premier activity" in terms of interactions and mechanics, have been neglected and overlooked ever since they were first introduced.

Unsurprising these continue to get overlooked just like USS, scenarios, many mission variants and other things, because players focus on the absurd payouts of things like A->B hauling or massacre stacking.

What a waste of assets.
And FDEV have notoriously followed the logic of "if players aren't using it, ignore it" but often they aren't using it because it's ignored.
 
And FDEV have notoriously followed the logic of "if players aren't using it, ignore it" but often they aren't using it because it's ignored.
100%. You see this with every update... e.g the engineering mat drop.

Dozens and dozens of more interesting game loops out there, but nah, let's make HGEs vomit an entire hold's worth of the highest tier materials in the game... because many people flip HGEs and don't actually do other activities for mats

Absolute trash design
 
Piracy can actually be quite profitable in the right circumstances, unfortunately that has to do predominantly with stealing low temperature diamonds, but the fact that most Commodities aren't worth stealing has little to do with piracy in and of itself, and far more to do with a bizarre trade system where trading gets you like 10x to 100x return on investment. Properly, controlled Goods like progenitor cells or Advanced medicines should be extremely expensive, and only provide marginal return on investment. That way the profit margins could remain largely the same as presently, but stealing them becomes far more worthwhile.
The problem with this is that you'd then create absurdly broken delivery missions[1], because they reward primarily based off commodity value instead of the proper metrics of raw volume and distance. The only thing commodity value should affect is the security deposit (or in Elite's case, the fine you get if you steal cargo, noting FD still haven't fixed the FC/ wing mission exploit).

The fact this would occur is evidenced by the fact it's been this way for years, and was overlooked when FD did the mineral price adjustment and bumped the prices of gold/ silver etc to what they are today, creating 50m reward deliveries for a handful of tonnes shipped 1 jump.

The "fix" didn't just knock the reward for these types of missions down, but for all deliveries, meaning the more reasonable rewards for things like 180t of biowaste (incorrectly) became a fraction of their payout too, so the gold runs still pay comparatively way too much.

[1] and because of the amount of times FD have simply forgot about second and third order effects, i simply have no faith they'd get it right.
 
The problem with this is that you'd then create absurdly broken delivery missions[1], because they reward primarily based off commodity value instead of the proper metrics of raw volume and distance. The only thing commodity value should affect is the security deposit (or in Elite's case, the fine you get if you steal cargo, noting FD still haven't fixed the FC/ wing mission exploit).

The fact this would occur is evidenced by the fact it's been this way for years, and was overlooked when FD did the mineral price adjustment and bumped the prices of gold/ silver etc to what they are today, creating 50m reward deliveries for a handful of tonnes shipped 1 jump.

The "fix" didn't just knock the reward for these types of missions down, but for all deliveries, meaning the more reasonable rewards for things like 180t of biowaste (incorrectly) became a fraction of their payout too, so the gold runs still pay comparatively way too much.

[1] and because of the amount of times FD have simply forgot about second and third order effects, i simply have no faith they'd get it right.
Oh don't get me wrong, if they're gonna fix Piracy it's gotta basically be part of a Trade 2.0 total rework of the entire system. Trade, Crime, Smuggling, System Security...they'd have to do all of it at once. Including rebalancing all the missions and their relative rewards.

I've started working on some ideas a few times but it's such a massive thing I always run out of steam partway through.

Here's an example of one of my attempts...



Crime and Punishment, Trade and Piracy

These systems have been largely unchanged for years now, despite being critically flawed in many ways. While some of these have been ostensibly advantageous in some regards, I believe that things could be BETTER - even for the people who would ostensibly be 'harmed' by the changes I'd like to see. First, let me explore the flaws in the current systems.

1. Notoriety - Notoriety is unduly punitive against law abiding players, while being largely ineffective against criminal players who already have anarchy settlements or an FC bookmarked to repair and rearm.
2. Piracy - Piracy is virtually irrelevant, giving tiny profits and taking far too long. Not only does this restrict this activity as a playstyle, it encourages ganking and discourages organic pvp.
3. Smuggling - Smuggling is virtually pointless, giving less profit than trading in most cases, while also having virtually no risk.
4. Player Bounty Hunting - Bounty Hunting is pointless, doing nothing to hinder gankers or pirates and rewarding bounty hunters precious little, either.
5. System Security - System Security is virtually irrelevant in everyday play, outside Anarchy systems for very specific niche purposes. But Anarchy factions are almost completely gone thanks to Odyssey.
6. Trade - Because Trade has such a low cost of entry, it has virtually no sense of progression. A brand new player can jump straight into trading the most valuable trade routes with no growth or challenge.
7. Salvage - With goods virtually free at commodities markets, why would anyone bother doing salvage? Just buy some new. Salvage is basically pointless.

Essentially, the entire system is profoundly unbalanced, and needs a holistic rework. While things like Notoriety are easily the most 'broken' of the problems, to properly fix them, it will take a more holistic change to these systems, starting with Trading.

Trading
-

The problem with Trading is ROI. Players can buy a commodity for 30 credits in one system, and sell it for 30,000 credits one jump away. That's a 1000x ROI, which not only renders piracy and smuggling virtually pointless, it also means there is no sense of progression or risk - or, really, skill - to trading. While risk should not be undue, risk also is a major driver behind excitement and fun. In essence, making trading slightly more risky and thought intensive not only won't make the activity LESS fun, it is far more likely to make it MORE fun.

The answer here is to increase the prices of these goods on both sides of the equation substantially. A typical good that earns you 500 credits of profit, like beer, might go for more like 2500 credits per ton, giving you a 20% ROI. More profitable goods would have progressively lower ROI, creating an ebb and flow between how much you can carry and how much you can afford. For example, a poorer starting player would be better off buying a large cargo of higher-ROI Beer, rather than a smaller cargo of lower-ROI narcotics. However, a player with plenty of credits would instead make more overall money buying the lower-ROI Narcotics.

The highest-value goods would have quite low ROIs, making them the most profitable but also profoundly more risky. Trading in something like Gold, for example, can currently offer a profit of around 64000 credits per ton - but are purchased at around 5000 credits, and sold at ~65000 credits. With a 60000 credit profit, this makes gold trading absolutely ridiculous, rendering gold MINING virtually pointless. Who is mining gold when you can buy it for next to nothing? Anything offering such massive profits per ton should properly cost at least 10x as much, and possibly more than that still.

Notably, this WOULD require the restructuring of some trade goods, either in their profits in the commodity's market, or their availability from mining. If gold were going for 600k/ton but could be mass mined from pristine metallic rings, you'll create problems of extremely broken profits.

The net result would be that commodity prices would scale far more profoundly; instead of ~50 - 50k, closer to 50 - 2,000,000.


Piracy and Salvage
-

By default, this creates an immediate resolution to the problems with Piracy and Salvage. It SHOULD be more profitable to steal goods(or salvage them) than to buy and sell them. The problems with this, of course, would be the bounties that would go with it, not the profits themselves. Or, in the case of Salvage, the time investment. Nevertheless, if one can steal 500 tons or so of 2m+ credit goods per hour, that's pretty overpowered, and would need to be kept in check.

One obvious answer would be that Black Markets should have fairly limited demand. Black Markets currently have no demand mechanic, which hasn't been a problem because so few people have done it, but that would rapidly become an issue with larger sales. In limited quantities, they should be offering decent prices, but obviously they'd have a hard time moving infinite stolen merchandise. This would rapidly diminish the profits past a certain point. Another would be that bounties should correlate with the value of the good stolen or destroyed. This would mean blowing up a full trader would give a huge bounty, and piracy would be a far more preferable course.

One problem with Piracy, however, is the rote nature of it. Because historically the values of stolen goods have been so low, it has been built around mass-theft over long timeframes. Rather, I'd like to see hatchbreakers reworked, each one ejecting masses of cargo at once, but also having a fairly prolonged cooldown. A pirate should be able to steal enough cargo in one limpet, but be encouraged to let the trader go instead of keeping them and draining them completely.

Hatchbreakers need to be changed from ejecting 5-10 tons and having no cooldown, to ejecting ~25-50 tons and having a fairly prolonged 'hatch jammed' effect, preventing further piracy. This answers both problems at once.

Smuggling
-

These changes also impact Smuggling, which could have higher profit margins than ordinary trading, in exchange for the now much higher risk of getting caught and losing the cargo.

In order to make smuggling challenging, however, there would need to be some changes to police behaviors. For one, it should be possible to be cargo scanned WITHOUT being interdicted. It should take quite a while to happen, however, so players have a time to either evade the scan in supercruise, or drop out of supercruise and evade the cops in real space. The security of systems should offer both a price multiplier as well as a difficulty multiplier. Additionally, on dropping in near a station, cops should converge on you from all sides; it should be advantageous to drop in a few dozen kilometers away and cruise in cold, perhaps from the back. New optionals like Smuggling Cargo Racks could also be available, disguising contraband beneath legal goods, limiting total cargo capacity but offering security.

Crime and Punishment
-

Now to the meat of the problem. Crime and Punishment.

The key here to simplify the entire system down to one metric. Many of the best and most enjoyable mechanics are organic results of a relatively simple system. For example, Odyssey's stealth gameplay arises almost entirely from the simple idea of security clearance and the ability to steal it, and is perhaps the best part of Odyssey gameplay.

As such, instead of Notoriety, Fines, and Bounties, we simplify down to one simple metric: Bounties.

Bounties now take the role of all of these things. Bounties beneath a certain level(say, 50k), can be paid off. Over that level and up to a certain point, they can be paid off with an interstellar factor. However, going over that level requires deliberate criminal action. And go TOO high, and there's only the option of waiting for it to naturally decay.

Any time a player is beneath the initial threshold, they can at any time retract their weapons, indicating surrender. Cops will then cease hostilities and direct them to proceed to an administrator as soon as possible to pay off their bounty. Accidentally shoot a cop? Just retract your weapons and they'll stand down. You can even do this a few times and be fine - but go over that lower limit? Now you're in real trouble.

Now, let's back up. The key of Crime and Punishment is to be FUN. That's the thing many forget. Even as a criminal, even as the game discourages you from certain actions or areas, it should be doing so in a way that is fun for EVERYONE, INCLUDING the criminal.

Anyway, that's as far as I made it before I got tired. I do think it's a solvable problem but it'd take a lot of effort.
 
Oh don't get me wrong, if they're gonna fix Piracy it's gotta basically be part of a Trade 2.0 total rework of the entire system. Trade, Crime, Smuggling, System Security...they'd have to do all of it at once. Including rebalancing all the missions and their relative rewards.

I've started working on some ideas a few times but it's such a massive thing I always run out of steam partway through.

Here's an example of one of my attempts...





Anyway, that's as far as I made it before I got tired. I do think it's a solvable problem but it'd take a lot of effort.
Yup. This is the whole-of-game economic rework that I've gone on for too long about, and should've happened many, many years ago. Instead, the game just limps along with new features built on the rubble, despite itself.
 
Well, piracy was always on paper a really interesting path, but sadly FD doesn't care anymore about "finished features". No, in fact, they do everything they can to siphon the last drop of fun out of these activities.

What piracy SEVERLY needs is:
  • Blackmarkets should have BETTER prices instead of worse! The whole "markup thingy because illegal wuhuu" is crazy because stealing is much more dangerous than mining / trading. Also, there are several boni just because of PP2 for traders. So that needs to go, asap.
  • Missions that need you to source things (illegally) should spawn special ships for you to intercept that have these goods.
  • There should be a new kind of limpet: The Stabilizer Limpet. That limpet acts like a railgun: You aim with a fixed "gun", you need to hold the trigger for 5 seconds and then the limpet will be shot with a speed of 800 m/s towards the target ship, stopping it and cancel rotation, bringing it to full hold and prevent engine repair for whatever seconds depending of the class.
  • There should be silos near planet installations that can be cracked to steal from them
  • And more I guess, but I'm tired now
The special limpet for stopping a ship would only interfere with PvP and the bump stop is part of the fun.
NPC piracy needs higher value cargo and a way of negotiating with the victim so as to avoid 30 min collection times (when fully disabled an NPC could offer a special high value ‘cash casket’ which can be collected quickly, in return for not destroying the ship).
 
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Oh don't get me wrong, if they're gonna fix Piracy it's gotta basically be part of a Trade 2.0 total rework of the entire system. Trade, Crime, Smuggling, System Security...they'd have to do all of it at once. Including rebalancing all the missions and their relative rewards.

I've started working on some ideas a few times but it's such a massive thing I always run out of steam partway through.

Here's an example of one of my attempts...





Anyway, that's as far as I made it before I got tired. I do think it's a solvable problem but it'd take a lot of effort.
Even just a few tweaks to the value of cargo would make a big difference.
 
It makes sense that there's 'bad prices' in black markets when it comes to stolen items, the whole idea of crime is that it's the 'easy' path and you're stealing a full load of stuff instead of working for it the hard way. And if something is stolen, every credit you earn is profit, while if you sell a load of gold, the profit is just the sell price minus the buy price.

The problem here is that actually stealing anything is a lot more work than mining it, and ships aren't carrying super valuable stuff most of the time so you have bigger profit margins by just doing an A to B trading run on a cutter. Which also affects how much money you can make since a piracy ship will need to have all these hardpoints and optional internals that make it have way less cargo than a fitted trader.

Not to mention there are no actual piracy mechanics. The sheer awkwardness and clunkiness of shooting out a ship's thrusters only for it to just keep its momentum and also start spinning wildly while you try to use hatch breaker limpets is not a real feature, it's a joke. A sad joke for that, it straight up doesn't work and it's rage inducing to try it.

You don't have any way to make the NPC surrender for example, or a negotiation or a grappling hook or a limpet that makes them stop. You have to fly around in specific systems with archaic rules to find a ship full of LTD's and then you gotta chase it around the bubble until it goes somewhere where cops won't spawn and do the whole dance. And for all that hard work you earn less money than by just doing 1 (one) trading mission.

As for smuggling, now the black market prices make no sense. It's ILLEGAL, it's hard to get. Sure these drugs might be cheap in a communist system where they are legal, but they should be expensive in this corporate system where they're not. Smuggling is more like a quirked up, more interactive version of trading. You risk fines if you get scanned, you gotta pay attention with heatsinks and silent running, etc... instead of just letting the docking computer do the whole thing. The fines are also bigger than your rebuy on a full cargo hold so you're actually risking more by smuggling than when it comes to dying by normal trading and getting interdicted. And you're never gonna die to an NPC anyway.

The whole thing is a completely abandoned feature though. Frontier rarely spends time improving a feature, they just go right into making a new one. It's only with Colonisation that I've seen multiple patches where they're actually improving the system. With anything else? It always stays the same for 5+ years.

I'd be far more excited if they announced a whole year's roadmap where they'll be 'revisiting and improving existing features' rather than some shiny 'new feature'.

A bug like the megaship bug then is absolutely crippling. Because it's gonna stay there forever and a whole gameplay loop and feature is completely unusable
 
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