Engineers One straight question

[Ian Skippy]

This seems to be one of the worst elements of the Engineers. I understand Frontiers desire to give everyone incentives to try out different aspects of the game, but they seem to have forgotten that a lot of those aspects aren't all that fun. "Play your own way" is no longer possible I'm afraid.

By the way, if you think exploration is dull, wait till you have to spend hours driving around in an SRV shooting rocks, hoping for the right material to drop... RNG hell if you ask me :S

"Do what you want" doesnt mean "you can use any tool to get all possible outcomes". You dont want to explore? Fine, dont. You wont get the rewards, but you can do something you do like, and get rewards for those.

Seriously, you are way too addicted to the carrot...

 

[Viking84]

That isn't even remotely true. As others have stated, you can unlock level 5 without doing the exploration component. Alternatively, just wait for an Engineer you know to reveal the location of another thruster specialist.

The problem here isn't the game or its mechanics, it is the mad desire of grinders to want Class 5 Upgrades less than a week after the game went live.

"Do what you want" doesnt mean "you can use any tool to get all possible outcomes". You dont want to explore? Fine, dont. You wont get the rewards, but you can do something you do like, and get rewards for those.

Seriously, you are way too addicted to the carrot...

There is no denying that to get the materials required for different mods, you need to partake in pretty much all of the following activities:

- SRV Rock Hunting
- Mining
- Combat
- Running Missions
- Scanning Wakes
- Hunting surface POI's

And probably more that I have missed. As I said, I understand the inclination for FDev to give us incentives to partake in a bit of everything. The problem is most players don't want to. I have already tried a bit of everything, and figured out what I do and don't enjoy. SRV rock hunting is in the "don't" list, but I will have to do it if I want to upgrade my FSD drive. No way around it I'm afraid.

This is not about instant gratification, min/maxing, or any such thing. To even get a basic level 1 upgrade for my FSD I have to search for random drops from random rocks on random planets. For me that means grinding, or ignoring the FSD upgrades. Neither of which sounds like a good solution.

 

[jacozilla]

Skipping all the boring yet simple math, 5000 light years is a mere ~166 jumps for a ~30 LY configured exploration ship. That comes out to roughly just over 60 minutes to go out, 120 minutes round trip or roughly 2 hours total RL to get this done.

The TL-DR is I would much, much rather do this requirement which takes a fixed ~2 hour of RL time, than other reqs that are apparently highly RNG how and where you get the materials.

(60min one way trip based on fast chain jumps - zero exploration, just jump and scoop until FSD recharge, then every now and then longer stop for full re-fuel when the partial scooping doesn't keep you full. This averages out to very conservative ~20 seconds per jump, no doubt many experienced explorers could average this out even faster)

 

[Viking84]

The TL-DR is I would much, much rather do this requirement which takes a fixed ~2 hour of RL time, than other reqs that are apparently highly RNG how and where you get the materials.

Personally I totally agree But that is the issue with the current setup, you may like one aspect of the game, others might like something else, but regardless of that we all have to do pretty much everything now assuming we wish to partake in the modding feast. I personally think this sucks.

 

[Ian Skippy]

There is no denying that to get the materials required for different mods, you need to partake in pretty much all of the following activities:

- SRV Rock Hunting
- Mining
- Combat
- Running Missions
- Scanning Wakes
- Hunting surface POI's

And probably more that I have missed. As I said, I understand the inclination for FDev to give us incentives to partake in a bit of everything. The problem is most players don't want to. I have already tried a bit of everything, and figured out what I do and don't enjoy. SRV rock hunting is in the "don't" list, but I will have to do it if I want to upgrade my FSD drive. No way around it I'm afraid.

This is not about instant gratification, min/maxing, or any such thing. To even get a basic level 1 upgrade for my FSD I have to search for random drops from random rocks on random planets. For me that means grinding, or ignoring the FSD upgrades. Neither of which sounds like a good solution.

None of that means you "cant blaze your own trail" anymore. Your idea (do the few things you like and get everything in return) just means you want less consequences for your choices.

 

[Viking84]

None of that means you "cant blaze your own trail" anymore. Your idea (do the few things you like and get everything in return) just means you want less consequences for your choices.

Fair enough, you could certainly view it that way. My issue with this is that most engineering mods require 4 to 5 components, generally from 4-5 different sources. Within that list you are damn near guaranteed to find an activity that you strongly dislike (in my case the SRV easter egg hunt). That means that most of the engineering mods are, for me, locked away behind tasks I find at best tedious to complete.

In the "old days" we had credits. Those could be earned through any career path of your choosing, and spent any way you liked. Now we have materials, that are locked to certain activities, and universally required to upgrade your ship to what is now the new "max". To me this clearly means we have a reduction in our freedom to choose our own paths, assuming we retain the same goal of slowly upgrading our ships to "be the best they can be".

Edit: Considering the upgrades from the engineers are very powerful indeed - doubling or tripling stats in extreme cases, one could argue that players who continue to "play their own way" are effectively locked out of 60% of the ship progression possible in Elite. You may view that as a fair consequence of their chosen play style, I believe it is an unfortunate limitation to our ability to play as we want to play.

 

[jasonbirder]

I don't want to dismiss the users concerns...as that would be impolite...but it does read a little like...I want the upgrades...but don't want to do what is required to get them...can FD alter it for me?
If there was an absolute need for some of the upgrades I'd be 100% in agreement with the OP...as making aspects of their game mandated on acquiring the equipment would exclude those that simply don't/won't explore/prospect/mine/pirate etc etc....
BUT while (for example) a FSD Jump Range Boost is nice...there's no reason you can't get the same range kick by fitting a better drive/synthesis/dropping the weight on some of your component or any one of multiple other ways...and even without it...HOW many systems are there that you can't visit - that you have a pressing need to - with current stock modules?
(I've used your example - but you could substitute Shield/Power Plant/Weapon etc etc as appropriate and it would still read the same...

 

[Viking84]

If there was an absolute need for some of the upgrades I'd be 100% in agreement with the OP...

This depends on what motivates you I guess In reality there isn't really much need for more than a Cobra MkIII to do whatever you want in the game in an entertaining fashion. In fact I went back to the Cobra when 2.1 released to avoid getting my expensive ships destroyed by the new AI which was rumoured to be unbeatable, and I quite enjoyed it.

However, ship progression is a fairly core part of Elite. It also seems to be an important motivating factor for a lot of players, myself included. Now that Engineering mods have arrived we have another ship progression path, with very significant gains, that is locked behind material requirements. I don't think it should be surprising to anyone that this is causing some grief.

We could certainly just "get over it" and ignore the Engineers, but that doesn't seem like a very good solution. It was suggested in another thread to ensure that every material at least has two possible sources. You might be unlucky enough that both sources are something you don't enjoy, but at least it gives you the chance to choose the lesser of two evils And more likely you will find something fun you can do which will produce the required material.

 

[digitalscream]

Edit: Considering the upgrades from the engineers are very powerful indeed - doubling or tripling stats in extreme cases, one could argue that players who continue to "play their own way" are effectively locked out of 60% of the ship progression possible in Elite. You may view that as a fair consequence of their chosen play style, I believe it is an unfortunate limitation to our ability to play as we want to play.

While I share that view - the perversion of the "blaze your own trail" tagline - doing so for the sake of upgrades is only a temporary thing, ie go off and spend a bit of time to satisfy the requirements, come back and never have to do it again.

I had a great little excursion with another CMDR last night; I wanted some nanobreakers but couldn't find them anywhere and the item drops were frustrating me, so he offered to provide them in return for me sourcing some commodities and doing an exchange. He surprised me with some really good RP, and I had to go and buy a T7 and do some trading to get what he wanted; I'm normally a combat pilot, so that was a total departure into something I generally don't find fun at all.

Turns out it was a nice break from my usual playing style.

My point? A brief departure into other professions isn't a bad thing, when there's a definite goal with 100% chance of being satisfied once you've completed it. In this case, the 5000Ly requirement is solid, and there's a definite reward at the end of it - and if you take an advanced scanner with you, you can boost your exploration rank to expose more missions too.

Not the worst thing in the world, especially when considered against the frustration of the randomness of the rest of the Engineer interactions.

 

[andrak]

5000 ly is really pretty trivial. You can do 1000 ly in an asp in about 25 minutes in a non modded asp. Get out of the bubble.

 

[Viking84]

My point? A brief departure into other professions isn't a bad thing, when there's a definite goal with 100% chance of being satisfied once you've completed it. In this case, the 5000Ly requirement is solid, and there's a definite reward at the end of it - and if you take an advanced scanner with you, you can boost your exploration rank to expose more missions too.

I kind of agree with this The added frustration from material drops being randomised, placement of different surface resources being randomised, and then in the end the result of your engineered component being randomised is a bit too much to bare. Add to that the fact that you will nominally have to keep doing this to grind up rank for a level 5 mod and the whole ordeal seems quite off putting.

Thankfully for me both the FSD workshops allow you to rank up with exploration data, which I generally get a fair bit of doing long range trading and smuggling missions. Works out nicely for me, and just leaves me with one set of materials (for each ship) to be hunted down in an SRV. I am sure I can survive that, but doing stuff I don't enjoy to get the means to do stuff I do enjoy is what I do in real life, and shouldn't be an important part of a game in my opinion...

 

[Rimsplitter]

Now that there is such a bewildering range of materials needed with many of them collected by different means the game is crying out for a clearing house system. There wouldn't be a need for currency that could be abused by gold farmers, just let people specialise in what they want to do and trade the surplus materials that come to them for the stuff that they need but never come across.

E.g. you offer 10 Arsenic and ask for 5 incoherent scan reports but if someone else offered 10 and only asked for 3 then they get the trade. Or if someone has the scan reports but they want 8 mechanical wotsits instead then you just don't get the business. Your offer stands until someone hits it with the bid that you specified. There is no currency to be manipulated, just open bartering with a bid-offer trade model.

Direct bartering by somehow - outside the game - finding someone who has/needs exactly what you have/need and then pooping materials out of your cargo hatch for each other is not the way forward.

It's a bit of a sad existence when the galaxy is full of pilots but they all have to live totally self-sufficiently, grimly grinding in the darkness with no meaningful cooperation.

 

[Allitnil]

Skipping all the boring yet simple math, 5000 light years is a mere ~166 jumps for a ~30 LY configured exploration ship. That comes out to roughly just over 60 minutes to go out, 120 minutes round trip or roughly 2 hours total RL to get this done.

The TL-DR is I would much, much rather do this requirement which takes a fixed ~2 hour of RL time, than other reqs that are apparently highly RNG how and where you get the materials.

(60min one way trip based on fast chain jumps - zero exploration, just jump and scoop until FSD recharge, then every now and then longer stop for full re-fuel when the partial scooping doesn't keep you full. This averages out to very conservative ~20 seconds per jump, no doubt many experienced explorers could average this out even faster)

A really good fast traveller can average around 43 seconds per jump. You can't do much faster than that because of the time it takes for the FSD to cool down, charge up and the actual jump itself. So I'm afraid that your calculations severely understate the time required. That said, I would much rather do a 10K round trip than most of the other requirements!

 

[Flash_Baggins]

professor palin meet requirements:
MEETING REQUIREMENTS

Attain a maximum distance from your career start location of at least 5,000 light years.

*leans back in chair* 65222 mothertruckers

At any rate, Palin is a scientist- he would want people to explore (my view on it anyways)