One way to counter mindless player killing (griefing?)

[Baza]

Sounds more like a typical game to me. This has been the standard practice since I started gaming online in 1995. You wouldn't want to turn your back on 2 decades of rich tradition, would you?
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There's nothing wrong with teaching people how to play by example, and you were reluctant to go to school as a kid just like the rest of us. Think of random interdictions by Players in Pythons as in-home tutors.

I'm really not going to learn very much from having my trading cobra wrecked by a fully pimped Anny now, am I? Oh yeah, buy an Anny and pimp it. Well that's very enlightening, thank you. Going back to other online games, is it really in a 'rich tradition' for your level 40 warrior to take out my level 5 thief? Just for kicks? Doesn't sound very rich to me?

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I'm really not going to learn very much from having my trading cobra wrecked by a fully pimped Anny now, am I? Oh yeah, buy an Anny and pimp it. Well that's very enlightening, thank you. Going back to other online games, is it really in a 'rich tradition' for your level 40 warrior to take out my level 5 thief? Just for kicks? Doesn't sound very rich to me?

You are playing the same game as the rest of us, right? Because the Anaconda is at a disadvantage in that situation.
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But ignoring that, no. You won't learn learn much the first time. If that was going to happen, we wouldn't have so many "Stahp teh griefers!" threads on a daily basis.

 

[anikaiful]

Going back to other online games, is it really in a 'rich tradition' for your level 40 warrior to take out my level 5 thief? Just for kicks?

If the said other online game is pvp-only, then yes - such happens even right now in some game out there, practically in each and every one of them.

 

[crushdepth]

A crowdsourced player reputation system would help people identify and avoid griefers if they wished, without taking away anyone's options. It would also add some consequences for griefing - nobody is gong to trust you.

 

[Baza]

Sorry, please tell me the disadvantage. I'm pulled out of cruise and instantly the guy's shooting. No scan so it's not piracy, it's just thuggery. My shields have gone in about two seconds despite my evading and boosting away. Then he follows up with a couple of missiles, one of which gets past my evading and, probably useless, pd. I'm dead, instantly. My FSD isn't even online yet. I've learned nothing other than that a big ship's going to squash a little one. He's gained nothing apart from, presumably, a moment of triumph. Like the playground bully he presumably was.

At this point he wants to pvp. I don't. I'm getting on with what I'm doing, quietly trading. I'm not trying to say "stop the griefers" - I'm just wondering what's the point? It's no fun for me and I can't see how it's much for him. We are supposed to be enjoying this, aren't we?

 

[CloneWarrior85]

Sorry, please tell me the disadvantage. I'm pulled out of cruise and instantly the guy's shooting. No scan so it's not piracy, it's just thuggery. My shields have gone in about two seconds despite my evading and boosting away. Then he follows up with a couple of missiles, one of which gets past my evading and, probably useless, pd. I'm dead, instantly. My FSD isn't even online yet. I've learned nothing other than that a big ship's going to squash a little one. He's gained nothing apart from, presumably, a moment of triumph. Like the playground bully he presumably was.

At this point he wants to pvp. I don't. I'm getting on with what I'm doing, quietly trading. I'm not trying to say "stop the griefers" - I'm just wondering what's the point? It's no fun for me and I can't see how it's much for him. We are supposed to be enjoying this, aren't we?

Just because you can't see outside the box, doesn't mean there's nothing outside of it.

If he starts blasting you as soon you both drop out of SC; then he is having fun. But for your bad luck, you aren't, tough luck for you, the game is made for everyone to enjoy, not only you on your trade runs (if that was what you were doing).

 

[Baza]

If the said other online game is pvp-only, then yes - such happens even right now in some game out there, practically in each and every one of them.

Sounds like fun. Probably why I can't be bothered with those games. Sounds like they're for children. It might happen but a 'rich tradition'? Really?

This mindless thuggery has only really started since Christmas - I can only assume that a bunch of kids have found the game in their stockings and decided that their's is the only 'right' way to play it.

 

[anikaiful]

Sounds like fun. Probably why I can't be bothered with those games. Sounds like they're for children. It might happen but a 'rich tradition'? Really?

*shrug* - I don't play those, so... That kind of behavior just happens to occur in certain humans.

 

[Baza]

Just because you can't see outside the box, doesn't mean there's nothing outside of it.

If he starts blasting you as soon you both drop out of SC; then he is having fun. But for your bad luck, you aren't, tough luck for you, the game is made for everyone to enjoy, not only you on your trade runs (if that was what you were doing).

And not only for him. If he gets his kicks from that then I truly pity him. Must be sadly inadequate. And getting pleasure out of making fellow gamers unhappy really does sounds like griefing to me. But if he can get his kicks from fighting others who want to fight and I can get mine from quietly trading (at this point - I've been bounty hunting before and plan on a long exploration run soon) then surely everyone's happy?

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*shrug* - I don't play those, so... That kind of behavior just happens to occur in certain humans.

Sadly it does. I'm just commenting on it and sounding off about why that should be so, really. There's lots of npcs for him to squish, and more of a challenge than me in my little unarmed trading cobra- Im wondering why someone would get kicks out of making a fellow gamer unhappy, really.

 

[Rivka]

The sad part about all these complaints is that Elite honestly has the most lenient and forgiving system EVER to switch from PvP enabled to PvE only. Seriously, you click "Solo" instead of "Open", and you are planted in a galaxy where PvP is impossible. You can switch, at will. You can take all of your stuff from totally protected PvE only world straight into PvP land, then flip it right back again.

The vast majority of PvP games on the market will make you, at minimum, roll a new character to play on a PvP server. No switches from a PvE only area. One way ticket, if you think PvP is too rough and go PvE, no going back. Over in Eve, the traders would give body parts and children for the ability to go "solo" whenever!

The ONLY thing different about playing Open, right now, is the Elite contest. That's it. Everyone involved plays on the same field there, Open Play. If you don't want to PvP, go Solo! If enough of your friends feel the same way, form a PvE friends group.

Elite is an open-world sandbox. Sandbox means "I can attempt anything I want, within the bounds of the rules." Part of attempting anything involves hampering OTHER people's playstyles, so long as it falls within the rules. I want to sit on the sun, interdict everyone passing, and charge a "toll", I can do that. I want to stop you from mining, until you buy a permit, I can do that too! I want to declare holy jihad on Sidewinder because they look funny...hey, as long as I play by the rules, it's all go. There are many, many different ways to avoid unwanted PvP actions. Use them.

 

[Baza]

The sad part about all these complaints is that Elite honestly has the most lenient and forgiving system EVER to switch from PvP enabled to PvE only. Seriously, you click "Solo" instead of "Open", and you are planted in a galaxy where PvP is impossible. You can switch, at will. You can take all of your stuff from totally protected PvE only world straight into PvP land, then flip it right back again.

The vast majority of PvP games on the market will make you, at minimum, roll a new character to play on a PvP server. No switches from a PvE only area. One way ticket, if you think PvP is too rough and go PvE, no going back. Over in Eve, the traders would give body parts and children for the ability to go "solo" whenever!

The ONLY thing different about playing Open, right now, is the Elite contest. That's it. Everyone involved plays on the same field there, Open Play. If you don't want to PvP, go Solo! If enough of your friends feel the same way, form a PvE friends group.

Elite is an open-world sandbox. Sandbox means "I can attempt anything I want, within the bounds of the rules." Part of attempting anything involves hampering OTHER people's playstyles, so long as it falls within the rules. I want to sit on the sun, interdict everyone passing, and charge a "toll", I can do that. I want to stop you from mining, until you buy a permit, I can do that too! I want to declare holy jihad on Sidewinder because they look funny...hey, as long as I play by the rules, it's all go. There are many, many different ways to avoid unwanted PvP actions. Use them.

I'm not complaining about the game. It's great that you can switch between open and solo. I'm complaining about the boorish behaviour of some players, that's all. But this is a multiplayer online game, right? Ok, I can play solo. But then I miss out on being part of a universe populated with real players. As I keep saying, I'm not trying to stop anyone playing however they want. I'm just perplexed about the mindset of someone who just wants to bully others because he has a big ship with powerful weapons. If he wanted to start charging a toll, as you suggest, I can see the point of that. It's the mindlessness of the pointless bullying that I struggle with.

 

[Commander Silex]

This is a multiplayer online game, right? Ok, I can play solo. But then I miss out on being part of a universe populated with real players. As I keep saying, I'm not trying to stop anyone playing however they want. I'm just perplexed about the mindset of someone who just wants to bully others because he has a big ship with powerful weapons. If he wanted to start charging a toll, as you suggest, I can see the point of that. It's the mindlessness of the pointless bullying that I struggle with.

It's not how I'd play, but there's been fairly clear communication to date as to what is considered acceptable in the Open galaxy. You're not expected to like it when people do take that route, but they're not cntravening any rules and are not the majority even amongst those friendly to PvP, that I can guarantee. I think the really big problem with this debate is that a lot of the players not really happy about being shot down randomly, which I can appreciate, don't want to hear anything that suggests other than 'This is wrong and those guys will be stopped/banned/sent off to a special place for only their style of gameplay' based purely on subjective anecdotal evidence given on these forums. There's an impatience to have it done yestrday, when to be frank, there's an entire section of the gameplay that could have a majot positive impact on this aspect of gameplay yet to be implemented.

I'll give you an example. Whilst patrolling in my viper I have invaded at least half a dozen Low energy FSD wakes that I am comfortably certain are going to land me in an instance where a piracy interdiction is taking place. Currently this is a bit tricky. You can overshoot the FSD wake with ease, and by the time you get in it can often be too late. But even as it stands, it's not impossible. I've made at least one player pirate turn tail and flee after I opened fire on him. Sadly I was a few seconds too late to save his mark, but I did force him to ditch his prize.

Wings are coming in soon, with better group mechanics, and improved capacity to meet other players in open space. It's entirely possible that during development of this area of the game improvements will be made to FSD wake tagging generally. Even if not, it's going to mean you can tag along with friends and piracy won't be as 'straightforward' as it is now.

Considering there's still much more to come, and not that far away even, it would seem to be a wiser course to be patient for now and see how things pan out once the multiplayer side is working more effectively.

 

[Baza]

It's not how I'd play, but there's been fairly clear communication to date as to what is considered acceptable in the Open galaxy. You're not expected to like it when people do take that route, but they're not cntravening any rules and are not the majority even amongst those friendly to PvP, that I can guarantee. I think the really big problem with this debate is that a lot of the players not really happy about being shot down randomly, which I can appreciate, don't want to hear anything that suggests other than 'This is wrong and those guys will be stopped/banned/sent off to a special place for only their style of gameplay' based purely on subjective anecdotal evidence given on these forums. There's an impatience to have it done yestrday, when to be frank, there's an entire section of the gameplay that could have a majot positive impact on this aspect of gameplay yet to be implemented.

I'll give you an example. Whilst patrolling in my viper I have invaded at least half a dozen Low energy FSD wakes that I am comfortably certain are going to land me in an instance where a piracy interdiction is taking place. Currently this is a bit tricky. You can overshoot the FSD wake with ease, and by the time you get in it can often be too late. But even as it stands, it's not impossible. I've made at least one player pirate turn tail and flee after I opened fire on him. Sadly I was a few seconds too late to save his mark, but I did force him to ditch his prize.

Wings are coming in soon, with better group mechanics, and improved capacity to meet other players in open space. It's entirely possible that during development of this area of the game improvements will be made to FSD wake tagging generally. Even if not, it's going to mean you can tag along with friends and piracy won't be as 'straightforward' as it is now.

Considering there's still much more to come, and not that far away even, it would seem to be a wiser course to be patient for now and see how things pan out once the multiplayer side is working more effectively.

Oh, I'm sure you're right. Genuinely, I love this game and want to be part of making it better. I'm not in the ' change the rules to stop griefing' camp. Im just sore at seeing a lot of creds go up in smoke for some moron's pleasure, that's all. It wasn't piracy, by the way. But if the game could be developed to encourage more player interaction, which might include players forming their own methods of policing, for example, how good would that be?

 

[Underhook]

To the OP
Interesting idea
I think murder is a legit form of game play and fun to boot. I dont believe it should be possible to pay off bounties and Bounties for killing human players probably could be higher. From the bounty hunters point of view it will probably cost at least 6000 credits in ammo etc to take out a murderer (if skilled human player). Also a good possibility of losing your ship.
I do believe that bounty hunters can take care of the issue if the rewards are there.

However, as somebody pointed out in another thread, we need a system to stop pirates with huge bounties on their head from getting in a sidewinder and letting their mate kill them. Any ideas?

 

[Commander Silex]

Oh, I'm sure you're right. Genuinely, I love this game and want to be part of making it better. I'm not in the ' change the rules to stop griefing' camp. Im just sore at seeing a lot of creds go up in smoke for some moron's pleasure, that's all. It wasn't piracy, by the way. But if the game could be developed to encourage more player interaction, which might include players forming their own methods of policing, for example, how good would that be?

Here's hoping

 

[Rivka]

Oh, I'm sure you're right. Genuinely, I love this game and want to be part of making it better. I'm not in the ' change the rules to stop griefing' camp. Im just sore at seeing a lot of creds go up in smoke for some moron's pleasure, that's all. It wasn't piracy, by the way. But if the game could be developed to encourage more player interaction, which might include players forming their own methods of policing, for example, how good would that be?

It's part and parcel of an open world, competitive sandbox game. People will clash. There will be a winner, and a loser when that happens. You're free to try anything you like, so long as it falls within the bounds of the rules. Being the guy who wants to see everything burn is well within those rules.

If you don't like it, Frontier has given you the ultimate "escape PvP" card, in Solo. There's no penalty at all for using it. You can flip to solo, then flip back, and keep everything. No timers, no limits, nothing.

If I want to explode a dude in Open, it's my prerogative. My reasons, or lack thereof, are totally my own, so long as I'm not breaking any conduct rules by doing so. If you don't want to risk it, play Solo! Part of Elite Open PLay is that, there might just be a crazy person in the next jump, and they may just smoke you for giggles. Nobody is forcing you into it, you have the perfect tool to avoid it, all you have to do is use it.

 

[Renegade Roach]

The penalties you're suggesting, though, would ultimately make PVP not worth engaging in. You're not interested in fairer penalties, you're interested in making sure people you perceive as 'griefers' can't ruin your game. Personal agenda detected - your sentence: solo mode.

This is a nonsense line that people keep trotting out. Pvp in anarchy systems would be unaffected, pvp against wanted targets would be unaffected, non-lethal piracy (also pvp!) would be unaffected. The people resisting this idea aren't defending pvp, they're defending their right to destroy people without consequence. There is an irony to this since they tend to be the players spouting all the 'if it's to tough play solo' and 'it's Elite: Dangerous not Elite: My Little Pony' nonsense, yet they are desperately trying to avoid there being any kick back for their actions. If you want to kill people then htfu and deal with some real and meaningful ramifications, wimps. And before you sling carebear insults at me, I pvp and pirate... vOv

 

[Gremlin]

So, what would be the point of pirating in the first place if he only had injury?

So, traders make money by trading.
Pirates loose money by pirating?

Love your way of thinking.

No, pirates lose money by becoming murderers and killing, they make money by actually acquiring cargo.

My thinking goes: If victims were more assured of not getting killed by losing a few tonnes of cargo, they are likely to either just hand over the cargo and you're done, or open fire in which case the pirate hurts then a bit (a lot) and offers the same chance. Repairing a hull is expensive, dropping a few grand on a pirate tax isn't really - but you need the assurance said pirate isn't just going to murder you anyway.

Pirating is a lesser crime than murder in my book.

 

[Suxamethonium]

I think the ironic solution is to make piracy pay but indiscretion murder cost.

Step 1. Interdiction becomes a crime unless your target is wanted in that system. That becomes the cost of piracy in occupied (non anarchy) space. This also allows victims to shoot back at will.

Step 2. Introduce a large fine for murder and that sets off a galaxy wide bounty (sort of like Interpol but perhaps policed by the pilot federation.) The fine should be commensurate to the cost to the other player. People with galaxy wide bounties show up as wanted everywhere but Anarchy space.

Step 3. Set large rewards for smuggling goods available in anarchy space only into civilised space.

Step 4. Your insurance payout is reduced by your bounty at time of death. (I.e higher rebuy costs)

Thus, traders seeking to be safe stick to safe space where pirates might lurk but gankers are going to have a bad time. The rewards of bounty hunting murderers go up, and eventually enough of a bounty on pirates for interdiction as well, but slower and not galaxy wide so there is an incentive to be a gentleman pirate. Lure brave traders after a big score, outlaws and bounty hunters into anarchy where everything goes.

Bounty hunters win, pirates win, traders win and gankers can game, but on targets who know they are taking a risk.

 

[PsychoFish]

If a player you kill is not wanted, put the bounty to his rebuy costs, so you have to suffer the same penalties as himself when you murder someone without any reason.

There is always the possibility to disable a ship and force it to selfdestruct, so this will never be fully "fixed".