Only one light source at a time?

[EdzUp]

A lot of that design decision was IIRC, due to the need to support 32 bit systems, that support ends with 2.4, so maybe we will see them start "opening up the throttle" in future.

I'm sorry this is rubbish, 32bit has no limitations heck you could have even done horizons on it as that's just a height map and some meshes.

As for shadows Neverwinter Nights had multiple shadows back in the early 2000s so it's a limit of the Cobra engine NOT drivers. All FDEV would have to do is get the angle and range and cast light and shadow dependent on those.

EDIT: OpenGL and Direct X have a eight light limit which still doesn't say while they only use one in space. I have been asking since 1.x for just light casting on ships NOT shadows just light it's the easiest thing to do and is even in the NeHe OpenGL tuts.

My credentials are I have been a coder since 1981 and released a space game back in 1999 which had multiple light sources. I have had systems with multiple lights all lighting up ship meshes making them look incredible.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I barely see a frame dropped on my fairly moderate rig. Sounds like you have dodgy hardware.



This would be the same Cobra engine that handles foliage, dense towns with structures, etc... just fine in Planet Coaster, and will no doubt handle it just fine in the upcoming Jurassic World game they're developing?



You missed out the 4th option: you don't know.

I pick (4) since, based on your posting history, you sound like a whiner with an axe to grind. (or just a concerned player trying to make a difference... what's your story?)

Show me your credentials as a 3D games developer, and then maybe we'll take your post a bit more seriously.

and you come across as a "know it all [deleted]"

Do you own planet coaster and can you definitely prove that the engine will handle city sized renders with foliage, people and all that other fun stuff. As for the upcoming jurassic thing, it's 3d isometric, not first person 3d; clearly you don't understand the difference.

Did you REALLY buy the hype of the trailer? with FDevs track record for "fudging it"? Does the trailer say *actual ingame footage*?? no, it says "pre-rendered footage" - in other words CGI.



why don't you show us YOUR credentials, otherwise you're just blowing smoke, with little to back it up.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Let's put the Handbags down folks.

It's Friday after all.

 

[Shadowdancer]

EDIT: OpenGL and Direct X have a eight light limit

Repeat after me: OpenGL and DirectX lights do not cast shadows.

(edit) and while we're at it. Notice how the inside of the cockpit and the pilot are lit from multiple sources including the HUD and several other sources independent of the outside environment. So… yeah, limited to one light source indeed.

(edit 2) Also, headlights.

(edit 3) Mining lasers anyone?

(edit 4) Come to think of it, some stations have those spotlights dancing around the inside.

Are you done with that foot or are you planning to eat the rest as well?

 

[CMDR-AD]

Multiple light sources, yes. Multiple shadows, no.

I actually think that Elite does have multiple shadow sources. It's just that there is only one star at a time that gets a shadow source within a system.

The other shadow sources are vehicle headlamps. I seem to recall being out in my SRV on a planet surface, seeing the shadow cast by the star, and shadows cast by my ship and SRV headlamps.

Another good easy way to see multiple shadow sources in Elite is mining. Turn on the ship headlamps and watch as mined materials and limpets cast dual shadows on asteroids as they float around. One shadow for each of the two headlamps on the ship.

 

[EdzUp]

A lot of that design decision was IIRC, due to the need to support 32 bit systems, that support ends with 2.4, so maybe we will see them start "opening up the throttle" in future.

I think the only issue 32bit has was the 4Gb limit which isn't a major limit.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Ah, the only thing more waggly than a gamer e-peen waggle-off: a coder e-peen waggle-off.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Another good easy way to see multiple shadow sources in Elite is mining. Turn on the ship headlamps and watch as mined materials and limpets cast dual shadows on asteroids as they float around. One shadow for each of the two headlamps on the ship.

I hadn't noticed that yet, probably for fear of bumping into a rock

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'm sorry this is rubbish, 32bit has no limitations heck you could have even done horizons on it as that's just a height map and some meshes.

As for shadows Neverwinter Nights had multiple shadows back in the early 2000s so it's a limit of the Cobra engine NOT drivers. All FDEV would have to do is get the angle and range and cast light and shadow dependent on those.

EDIT: OpenGL and Direct X have a eight light limit which still doesn't say while they only use one in space. I have been asking since 1.x for just light casting on ships NOT shadows just light it's the easiest thing to do and is even in the NeHe OpenGL tuts.

My credentials are I have been a coder since 1981 and released a space game back in 1999 which had multiple light sources. I have had systems with multiple lights all lighting up ship meshes making them look incredible.

But we do get multiple light sources from minor points, such as ship, SRV, station lights etc which is the same as neverwinter nights and many other games. What we don't have are multiple main light sources from two stars. I am pretty sure that NWN didn't have that in game. I can't think of many games that do, but I do agree that it should be in the game options as a graphics option, and if your computer can handle it, then good have it enabled. Mine certainly won't in VR, one main light source is tough enough.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I think the only issue 32bit has was the 4Gb limit which isn't a major limit.

The 4Gb limit is pretty significant, as that includes Ram and VRam. There are workarounds, but they would be costly and time consuming. The V/Ram liimitations can certainly play a part when creating multiple shadows and light sources.

 

[EdzUp]

Repeat after me: OpenGL and DirectX lights do not cast shadows.

(edit) and while we're at it. Notice how the inside of the cockpit and the pilot are lit from multiple sources including the HUD and several other sources independent of the outside environment. So… yeah, limited to one light source indeed.

(edit 2) Also, headlights.

(edit 3) Mining lasers anyone?

(edit 4) Come to think of it, some stations have those spotlights dancing around the inside.

Are you done with that foot or are you planning to eat the rest as well?

I was talking about in Supercruise it's there where loads of us take shots yes I do agree OpenGL and Direct X lights do not cast shadows BUT would light up the dark side of our ship making it look more realistic if we are between two sun's.

But we do get multiple light sources from minor points, such as ship, SRV, station lights etc which is the same as neverwinter nights and many other games. What we don't have are multiple main light sources from two stars. I am pretty sure that NWN didn't have that in game. I can't think of many games that do, but I do agree that it should be in the game options as a graphics option, and if your computer can handle it, then good have it enabled. Mine certainly won't in VR, one main light source is tough enough.

This is nice but the lighting in Supercruise is the thing I think needs work.

The 4Gb limit is pretty significant, as that includes Ram and VRam. There are workarounds, but they would be costly and time consuming. The V/Ram liimitations can certainly play a part when creating multiple shadows and light sources.

4Gb is a lot yeah games these days need more and more. I can see why they have done it and gone 64bit only as they can use all the video ram on huge video cards (some kicking 8Gb etc).

 

[Kubicide]

I barely see a frame dropped on my fairly moderate rig. Sounds like you have dodgy hardware.



This would be the same Cobra engine that handles foliage, dense towns with structures, etc... just fine in Planet Coaster, and will no doubt handle it just fine in the upcoming Jurassic World game they're developing?



You missed out the 4th option: you don't know.

I pick (4) since, based on your posting history, you sound like a whiner with an axe to grind.

Show me your credentials as a 3D games developer, and then maybe we'll take your post a bit more seriously.

Nope, sorry. Only 3 choices.

Regarding the FPS, please take a look back at the forum complaints as well as FDev's own comments on trying to deal with improving framerates. Don't try to ignore the truth now! And which multi-player Cobra-engineered game is this you speak of with foliage, dense town and such? PC is not multiplayer. Can't use that as any type of reference here.

Do you have credentials as a "3D games developer" whatever that means? And does one need this to be able to see FPS impact when using only one light source? Interesting.

 

[nanite2000]

Nope, sorry. Only 3 choices.

My apologies. I wasn't aware you were an employee of Frontier Developments, because how else would you be able to make such authoritative claims?

Regarding the FPS, please take a look back at the forum complaints as well as FDev's own comments on trying to deal with improving framerates. Don't try to ignore the truth now!

I see a handful of the overall player base has some framerate issues, but show me a 3D games engine that doesn't. With an infinite number of hardware configurations out there, it is almost impossible to guarantee performance on all of them. All PS4 players, all XBox players, and most PC players have no issues. Frontier are actively working to improve framerate issues for those that have them, and each patch improves performance further.

Would you rather they focused their efforts on fixing framerate issues, or on adding support for more light sources?

And which multi-player Cobra-engineered game is this you speak of with foliage, dense town and such? PC is not multiplayer. Can't use that as any type of reference here.

Why?

Do you have credentials as a "3D games developer" whatever that means? An does one need this to be able to see FPS impact when using only one light source? Interesting.

Well, I'm not the one claiming to speak with any authority about Frontier's technical ability and decision making. But since you asked: I've been working in software development for nearly 20 years, with 15 of those years as a developer. I spent years modelling real world systems in C, C++, C#, and Java.

I also have a BSc in Computer Science, and 1 year's degree of Astrophysics. I have also done a small amount of 3D graphics modelling in my spare time.

So, while I don't have 3D graphics development experience (and remember, I never claimed I did), I do know how difficult it is to model something in software that looks simple at first glance. I know that accurately modelling lighting is one of the most CPU intensive processes you can do. I know that Cobra can handle multiple light sources (look at EdzUp and Max Factor's posts further up the page), but Frontier have chosen to hold off developing it for stars for now.

I know how often software developers and businesses are forced to make difficult decisions when faced with doing something 'properly' that will take a long time (too long in some cases), or provide something adequate for now while the complex solution is put on the backlog and incrementally worked on over time.

You have to accept that this is the development model Frontier have gone for - deliver soon and build on over time, rather than keep everyone waiting indefinitely until they can deliver perfection.

You also should take a look at your own posting history - you may have valid points, but they're lost among the relentless negativity.

 

[archie456]

The lighting and shadows can be really disappointing when driving on a planet.

If the major light source is behind the planet then the SRV has no shadow even though its on a brightly lit surface - lit by another star.

This looks really poor, somewhat like the SRV has been badly Photoshopped in.

I'd really like to see some work done on the lighting system...

 

[nanite2000]

The lighting and shadows can be really disappointing when driving on a planet.

If the major light source is behind the planet then the SRV has no shadow even though its on a brightly lit surface - lit by another star.

This looks really poor, somewhat like the SRV has been badly Photoshopped in.

I'd really like to see some work done on the lighting system...

Agreed. If Frontier can support multiple light sources in a single system, it could transform the look of the game - especially on planets. There could be some impressive and unusual lighting combinations - imagine a planet with a light blue day side, and a dark red night side.

I would love if they could do some work on this in the upcoming 3.0 core update that's been talked about.

 

[Kubicide]

My apologies. I wasn't aware you were an employee of Frontier Developments, because how else would you be able to make such authoritative claims?



I see a handful of the overall player base has some framerate issues, but show me a 3D games engine that doesn't. With an infinite number of hardware configurations out there, it is almost impossible to guarantee performance on all of them. All PS4 players, all XBox players, and most PC players have no issues. Frontier are actively working to improve framerate issues for those that have them, and each patch improves performance further.

Would you rather they focused their efforts on fixing framerate issues, or on adding support for more light sources?



Why?



Well, I'm not the one claiming to speak with any authority about Frontier's technical ability and decision making. But since you asked: I've been working in software development for nearly 20 years, with 15 of those years as a developer. I spent years modelling real world systems in C, C++, C#, and Java.

I also have a BSc in Computer Science, and 1 year's degree of Astrophysics. I have also done a small amount of 3D graphics modelling in my spare time.

So, while I don't have 3D graphics development experience (and remember, I never claimed I did), I do know how difficult it is to model something in software that looks simple at first glance. I know that accurately modelling lighting is one of the most CPU intensive processes you can do. I know that Cobra can handle multiple light sources (look at EdzUp and Max Factor's posts further up the page), but Frontier have chosen to hold off developing it for stars for now.

I know how often software developers and businesses are forced to make difficult decisions when faced with doing something 'properly' that will take a long time (too long in some cases), or provide something adequate for now while the complex solution is put on the backlog and incrementally worked on over time.

You have to accept that this is the development model Frontier have gone for - deliver soon and build on over time, rather than keep everyone waiting indefinitely until they can deliver perfection.

You also should take a look at your own posting history - you may have valid points, but they're lost among the relentless negativity.

This topic of one light source has come up a couple of times before. It was noted in early beta, discussed then, and brought up again a couple of times after release. And you are correct that this is what FDev chose to implement. Back to my point and the three selections - it looks like you agree with one of the three choices but want to force some sort of sideways debate which comes across as white-knighting defense of the Cobra engine (which you know nothing about) and where FDev can apparently do no wrong. One white-knighting trait is shifting off topic to personal attacks be it subtle or outright. Remember this discussion is about one light source in SC.

The Cobra game engine has strengths and weaknesses. We only get to see them from the outside unless FDev wants to share the source code. This lighting issue is a known limitation - either by choice, by design or by the lack of expertise to implement something greater which goes back to my three points. Not that it has any real relevance but I do program and can comment intelligently on details like this.

And thank you for checking on my post history. Glad you're interested in me [blushes] even though it's kinda creepy. My posting activity should be clear: I'm an unhappy customer. I paid FDev money and got a product that I believe was not what was offered. They refused to give a refund so here I am. There are other unhappy customers. There are also happy customers. That's the way things work. So I comment with my perspective as do others as part of this discussion forum. Unfortunately, being unhappy, I'll be more critical while others that are happy are likely to be overly hyped and some blindly defensive.

 

[jojon]

I'd be quite okay with an interim going-half-the-way, where every sun, as well as GI/AO/light_probe_influence from nearby bodies, contributes to the shading, but only the single most influential of these gets to cast shadows (the burden of which, I assume to be the cause for FDev staying their hand).

 

[Stachel]

All PS4 players, all XBox players, and most PC players have no issues.

Just. Not. True. ED frame rate on PS4 and Xbox is a huge mess-up.

Digital Foundry's analysis. "Neither machine really holds up. A mixed bag on all formats, and outside PC is is really a matter of picking the compromise you can accept." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDyi7Fwrxno&t=4m27s

Frame rate loss in space stations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDyi7Fwrxno&t=3m40s
Frame rate loss on planets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDyi7Fwrxno&t=4m20s

"ED is falling very short of that 60Hz goal. You'll hit it only when in space when often the most the game has to render is just a canvas of stars and a few planets. When you land on any planet it's different story."

 

[ebbrell]

Wait until you see the moving shadows inside the space stations. From the opposite side of the station from the mail slot. While you're below decks in the hangar.

Yup. The sunlight is so strong that it shines through the hull of the station, through the various decks, and the shadows from various parts of the station can be seen moving along the walls while you're parked in the hangar.

Gives 'dynamic lighting' a whole new meaning. LOL

So I'm not mad, different times of the day, the inside seems lighter than others..
Is this true, so its not me imagining it.

 

[Stachel]

I do know how difficult it is to model something in software that looks simple at first glance. I know that accurately modelling lighting is one of the most CPU intensive processes you can do.

Your understanding is a decade or two out of date. Almost all the processing of light modelling in modern games is done on the GPU not the CPU.

If Frontier's problems ARE from trying to do it on the CPU, that's their own fault.

I know how often software developers and businesses are forced to make difficult decisions when faced with doing something 'properly' that will take a long time (too long in some cases), or provide something adequate for now

The decision behind this is Frontier's trying to use in-house code rather than an industry standard game engine like almost every other game developer. This in-house code is what they tout as "COBRA", which no-one had heard of and was not mentioned on any of their games until 2013 when Frontier started talking up the company to sell shares to investors, at which point Frontier claimed it has had this wonderful COBRA engine technology -- since 1984!

That's how ED got stuck with mickey mouse code that can't do simple things that other games have being doing for years without any of these "difficult decisions" you speak of.

The COBRA lighting code breaks one way or another on every big ED update. Blinding white space stations, pitch-black space stations, no-light cockpits, flashing light level on planet surface, ship headlights shining through Thargoid structures etc. etc.

Before anyone expects a fix to ED's inability to show light from only one sun, consider that in three years, Frontier have not even been able to get that one sun to do the absolute basics of lighting right, such as throwing the right colour.