Open letter to Frontier

[Ziggy Stardust]

edit: and now you guys tricked me into making this like the other tread.

No trickery intended, it was a genuine question.

I agree with you that combat logging is quite anti-social, and even in Solo I would frown upon it. But infiltrating into a PvE environment with the express intent to engage in PvP in order to provoke reactions is no less so.

So I'm wondering what the deciding factor is that makes one actionable and the other allowable. I guess we're both stumped for the answer, but I'd be curious how anyone from Frontier Development looks at this.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

It is a puzzle is it not? Am I not allowed to decide when and how I want to close the game I bought on my pc? Am I not allowed to decide when to sever the connection to the internet whenever I want?

You have a license with Microsoft, part of that license allows you to control what process's you allow to run and which you would like to stop. It is your hardware without license too which means you have the right to turn it on/off as and when you like, you can also plug and unplug anything you want at any time. Nobody can stop you. Sure a company can come up with rules/contract's that say you agree not to but we all know what rules are made for.

Tell a child not to do something and see what it does

 

[Roybe]

Zac's official response:



It's really disappointing to see players actively griefing other players. The fact of the matter here is that Mobius is a private group where players decide to come together and play in a specific way. The idea that someone decides they want to be disruptive without any real reason or gain is a shame.

However, "griefing" in itself isn't against the rules. There is no evidence that I can see that suggests that the players in question altered the game in any way in order to gain an unfair advantage. In addition, groups are made in a way that allow players to join together and play in a way they want. However, it is the admins of those groups that manage which Commanders have access to the group and which do not.

It is something that David Braben and the developers are aware of though. Only recently I heard David answer a question on this subject in a community interview and I know that it's something that has/is considered by the developers, and I know that creating a friendly and enjoyable game experience is something that is taken very seriously.

I should also mention, the offending players have been removed from the Mobius group. I know this because the Mobius admins got in touch when there were some technical difficulties with managing their group permissions to remove these members from the groups. The members were successfully removed and the technical issues have been resolved.

On a personal level, I must say, on the most part we see community members taking part in PVP or roleplaying piracy in a way that works for everyone. If a trader is stopped and asked to drop their cargo, they feel better for the experience and not having to rebuy their ship - That player is more likely to continue to trade. The pirate can then plunder another day.

It isn’t piracy if a player deliberately tries to ruin another player’s experience. It is unfortunate to see players trying and taking pride in this kind of experience.

My apologies to any posters I may have disagreed with over the previous months- I was wrong, you were right, griefing is not against Elite Dangerous' rules. In fact, it appears that it's not only tolerated, it's so important to Frontier that they're willing to put the amusement and entertainment of a few griefers and gankers before the clearly expressed wishes of almost 20,000 group members- although they're 'disappointed' that those griefers and gankers chose to act that way. Thank you for the clarification, Zac.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

No trickery intended, it was a genuine question.

1st off just putting it out there... I have never CLed other than due to my graphics driver hanging, and then my god the disabled alt F4 is a pita but i digress..

however that being said, IF i was attacked by a berk in mobius, and IF i did then CL and was reported, I would be interested to see if FD did anything about it. Yes i know they "say" CLing even when being griefed in a private mode is cheating and will be punished, and that going into a private group and griefing is suported valid play..

but I wonder if they would actually be hardnosed enough to wield the ban hammer in such a circumstance or if they would let it slide..... I guess i will never know.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Well, there's 19 pages of my life I won't get back.
But dayum, that beer is looking ever so tempting...

Pretty obvious SDC did what they did to bring attention to themselves. The Code did exactly the same thing last year. It's not really anything new.
Humans will always be Humans...

If FD were to run roughshod over private groups banning and dealing out justice everywhere there would be tears.
If they were to offer an admin console of sorts to private group leaders there would also be tears because some players would just abuse it...then more tears.
As Mobius is run by a player, the responsibility lies solely with them and it seems, at least according to some posts, that justice has been served.

The funniest thing about this is both sides are using the incident to further their own cause which generally would result in the extinction of either mode and that's what I think is really going on here.
I don't think that would be a particularly good thing for the game as there is a great variety of players who play the game in different ways and this is something that very few games actually offer and it should be cherished and not abused.

One thing is for sure, if such actions start to affect the game in a negative way, FD will probably have to step in and I wouldn't expect the end result to be to everyone's liking.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

No trickery intended, it was a genuine question.

I agree with you that combat logging is quite anti-social, and even in Solo I would frown upon it. But infiltrating into a PvE environment with the express intent to engage in PvP in order to provoke reactions is no less so.

So I'm wondering what the deciding factor is that makes one actionable and the other allowable. I guess we're both stumped for the answer, but I'd be curious how anyone from Frontier Development looks at this.

My guess is it's because FDEV treat all modes as equal. They even say that.

Programmatically, Solo, Group, and Open are the exact same code, just different levels of game client connectivity.

So Private Group mode gets no special treatment.

FDEV have never published any specific Private Group policy rules stating anything like "Private Groups may have additional rules set up by their creators. These additional rules must be followed or there will be trouble." - I and quite a lot of players have just assumed this is the case, and now it seems we are wrong.

In other words, it doesn't matter if Mobius has a set of published rules - FDEV do not care about those, only the main game rules apply.


​That's the vibes I'm getting from FDEV.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Again: it did happen before. Numerous times. One of those 'heroes' repeatedly bragged on these forums about it. So why do some many in this topic dont know about it: Easy: how many Mobius guys are there? 20k? Thats less than 2% of the players. How many people did that        kill? Say a dozen. Thats less than 0.01% of Mobius players. So we had a few cases in which 0.0002% of players had to pay some insurance. The horror! Quick FD, drop everything you are doing and make this your top priority. Heck, just send Ed or Zac a note and ask them if FD can make an exception and give these guys their few credits back.

Yes, this individual was a total       , but as usual there is no reason to go all doom&gloom about it as some in this topic do. Just shake your head and move on.

That is not the point though, is it. I'm all for open and PVP but I love PVE games too. If I was so inclined to join a PVE group and then had some players come in from another group just to be griefers then yes, I would expect FD to do something about it because it's not the amount of players that get killed/griefed, it's the people who hear about it. There are plenty of players just about hanging onto ED right now that won't need much more encouragement to drop it entirely. This is one such incident that will cause people to walk away from the game.

This could have been averted months ago when we were all yelling at FD to fix the god awful "criminal system" which is nothing but a joke. 14 months later they're starting to think about it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

[/B][/I]​That's the vibes I'm getting from FDEV.

I agree...... maybe if FD just gave us the filters for PGs that they promised way back in kickstarter that at least would help.

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

Its so easy to play in open without being ganked or griefed or even seeing other players, that this issue is a non starter.

The fault lies with certain people thinking they even need to make their own group to avoid said actions, and as a consequence to their soft natures, unwittingly make themselves a self corralled and easily targeted minority group. Penned nicely into mobius for anyone to find, for any griefer with enough motivation to carry out some pointless and childish act. It was really just a matter of time.

If mobius type people spent less time flogging dead horses about their inherent rights and crying to anyone that will listen about needing a PVE only mode, and instead spent more time playing in open, realising its easy to avoid danger spots, and hardening themselves to the ways of open play, they wouldn't be such victims.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ok, guys, consider this response:

Zac's official response:

It's really disappointing to see players actively griefing other players. The fact of the matter here is that Mobius is a private group where players decide to come together and play in a specific way. The idea that someone decides they want to be disruptive without any real reason or gain is a shame.

However, "griefing" in itself isn't against the rules. There is no evidence that I can see that suggests that the players in question altered the game in any way in order to gain an unfair advantage. In addition, groups are made in a way that allow players to join together and play in a way they want. However, it is the admins of those groups that manage which Commanders have access to the group and which do not.

Combat logging also doesn't alter the game in any way to gain an unfair advantage. So ... why the difference in response?

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

Well, there's 19 pages of my life I won't get back.
But dayum, that beer is looking ever so tempting...

Pretty obvious SDC did what they did to bring attention to themselves. The Code did exactly the same thing last year. It's not really anything new.
Humans will always be Humans...

If FD were to run roughshod over private groups banning and dealing out justice everywhere there would be tears.
If they were to offer an admin console of sorts to private group leaders there would also be tears because some players would just abuse it...then more tears.
As Mobius is run by a player, the responsibility lies solely with them and it seems, at least according to some posts, that justice has been served.

The funniest thing about this is both sides are using the incident to further their own cause which generally would result in the extinction of either mode and that's what I think is really going on here.
I don't think that would be a particularly good thing for the game as there is a great variety of players who play the game in different ways and this is something that very few games actually offer and it should be cherished and not abused.

One thing is for sure, if such actions start to affect the game in a negative way, FD will probably have to step in and I wouldn't expect the end result to be to everyone's liking.

This guy gets it....

 

[Jesters09]

Ok, guys, consider this response:

Combat logging also doesn't alter the game in any way to gain an unfair advantage. So ... why the difference in response?

Would rep you again, but you Sir have maxed out my rep counter again.

I like it when logic prevails.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If mobius type people spent less time flogging dead horses about their inherent rights and crying to anyone that will listen about needing a PVE only mode, and instead spent more time playing in open, realising its easy to avoid danger spots, and hardening themselves to the ways of open play, they wouldn't be such victims.

Or they play on like they always did, but in the future would react to this type of infiltration by groups by joining forces and really start messing with the home systems of the groups doing the infiltrating, they would also not be such victims.

Call it private group emergent gameplay to bring smiles on the faces of all members of that private group. Providing a service if you wish

 

[Bostlabs]

If mobius type people spent less time flogging dead horses about their inherent rights and crying to anyone that will listen about needing a PVE only mode, and instead spent more time playing in open, realising its easy to avoid danger spots, and hardening themselves to the ways of open play, they wouldn't be such victims.

Hogwash.
So if everyone just goes to Open and stays in out of the way places they'll be just fine? Does Hutton Orbital ring a bell? Can't get much more 'out of the way' than that and I seem to recall there being a big bunch of dbaggery going on in that CG.

I'll stay in PG, thanks, and let the dbags dbag each other.

 

[KaizoMK]

Well, there's 19 pages of my life I won't get back.
But dayum, that beer is looking ever so tempting...

Pretty obvious SDC did what they did to bring attention to themselves. The Code did exactly the same thing last year. It's not really anything new.
Humans will always be Humans...

If FD were to run roughshod over private groups banning and dealing out justice everywhere there would be tears.
If they were to offer an admin console of sorts to private group leaders there would also be tears because some players would just abuse it...then more tears.
As Mobius is run by a player, the responsibility lies solely with them and it seems, at least according to some posts, that justice has been served.

The funniest thing about this is both sides are using the incident to further their own cause which generally would result in the extinction of either mode and that's what I think is really going on here.
I don't think that would be a particularly good thing for the game as there is a great variety of players who play the game in different ways and this is something that very few games actually offer and it should be cherished and not abused.

One thing is for sure, if such actions start to affect the game in a negative way, FD will probably have to step in and I wouldn't expect the end result to be to everyone's liking.

This is why instead of coming up with arbitrarily enforced rules like "don't combat log" and "griefing is bad", FD needs to buckle down and fix the problem with game design. I don't blame the griefers for doing what the game doesn't inherently punish them for doing. And I don't blame combat loggers for executing a function of the game, whether it be to log out in 15 seconds or to kill the game with task manager (I consider the game closing to be a function of the game - it's a consequence of the server choice.)

This is on FD to fix, and it's not gonna be done by telling players not to do a thing. They can do this in a way that's organic to the feel of the game.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

The Combat logging thing is not going to stick negatively here. FDev have said down the line that consequences for Cloggers would require repeated measurable instances of CLogging in combat.

Not pulling the plug once when someone decides to break a gentlemen's agreement.

Also if you extrapolate it, to the often touted but never implemented "Shadowban", it will mean you will be playing in a subset of Mobius with other Mobius CMDRs who also CLogged to avoid unwanted harassment... So you get possibly the most peaceful and cooperative subset of players. Where is the penalty there?

 

[Zandraak]

When Frontier will add gameplay to this game?
Mechanic, graphisms (they nerf it at all update xD) ect are here.
But there is still no gameplay ELSE RP in your Head.

 

[KaizoMK]

Its so easy to play in open without being ganked or griefed or even seeing other players, that this issue is a non starter.

The fault lies with certain people thinking they even need to make their own group to avoid said actions, and as a consequence to their soft natures, unwittingly make themselves a self corralled and easily targeted minority group. Penned nicely into mobius for anyone to find, for any griefer with enough motivation to carry out some pointless and childish act. It was really just a matter of time.

If mobius type people spent less time flogging dead horses about their inherent rights and crying to anyone that will listen about needing a PVE only mode, and instead spent more time playing in open, realising its easy to avoid danger spots, and hardening themselves to the ways of open play, they wouldn't be such victims.

You don't actually understand the problem, and you're one of those bad kids that shames people for not being as good as you THINK you are. Maybe think a little harder.

Sorry, thought this would be tacked onto my other post. This is FD's fault and no one else's.

 

[Djerk Ard]

Do you have a source for that information?

Will try and find it - think it was in a document regarding campaigning produced by the NCCL around 1997 - for some reason also associating it with a Labour MP's newsletter from around 2007. Will try and hunt it down.


**EDIT**

My apologies @Javert - it must have been a made up figure, either by someone working for Liberty in the late 'nineties or an activist á la MarK THomas, exaggerated by my memory. With constituency averages being 70K, that would mean 70 letters complaining about something would be the entire constituency! I checked all the MP emails I could find from that period, and while she was campaigning a lot for people to get involved there is no mention of numbers in the mails I still have (from 2008 to 2010).

The closest current thing I could find is this, but again without numbers:
https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Letter_writing

Will edit original message with correction.

 

[Lowievisser]

Well, there's 19 pages of my life I won't get back.
But dayum, that beer is looking ever so tempting...

hey we need something to do at work , now i want beer and play elite but still need to "w8" a little , you have it so easy atm

and we have zac answer now. Geuss its safe to say solong elite exist this kinda discussion will go on and on!