Open letter to Frontier

[Roybe]

Sadly its the best we can get now. Sure, a griefer can do a kill or two until he can be expelled. But in the end the griefers are not THAT many and will disappear from mobius as fast as they reveal themselves.
There is no absolute security. Not even in RL. i could go out tomorrow and meet a Brenda Ann Spencer somehere. It's just very unlikely because i am living in germany. Not in the bronx or some similar suburb.
So maybe if you cant cope with that small rest percentage of risk of getting (unruly) ganked... maybe its really better for you to stay in solo for the time being until FD improves on the admin tools/ PvE mode.
Cant be that long, maybe 2 or three years (estimated by the progress the game made so far for the PvE (-ish) players.)

It might be the best we can do forever! Personally, I can live with the issue. However...it is not reasonable to those that cannot live with it should have to 'deal' with it. They will leave.


Honestly, if the group that did this is 'smart' about it...the can continuously do this until they run out of people. Once a week 2 or 3 people make fun of the PVE'ers by signing up and killing them.


Your logic breaks down because in a game you CAN offer absolute security...unlike the real world. And this is where the PvE crowd is placing the pressure on the devs. If this type of behavior is to be expected and not controlled...then I know many a PVE player that will find a better place to spend their time. Of course, because PvP is poorly implemented to start with...a number of PvP groups are redefining their roles and spending their time in other ways....this being a case in point. PvP sucks? Then we will make everyone's game suck. Basically, at this point...it appears that people just want the game to lose players as fast as possible and everyone being unhappy makes this easier to push.

The PvE players are unhappy. The PvP players are unhappy. The PowerPlay players are unhappy. The BGS players are unhappy. Heck, the explorers are unhappy.

<shrug> I'm even seeing some of the White Knights are waking up and realizing there are problems all around.

It will not take many activities like this to turn people off from the game.

The devs have to realize that people will fight for a 'cause'...for a while. No one will fight against <sillyness>...once this occurs with frequency....all that will be left are the <silly people>.

Thanks for the edit...was coming back to rewrite...

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
And that is what happened, they broke the group rules (but not Frontiers rules) and were kicked from the group.

In my opinion they broke FDs ToS. The problem for me is not what SDC did, the problem is FDs reaction.

 

[Sapient6]

Heck, the explorers are unhappy.

Hey, I'm still mostly happy. I'd like a few additions to exploration and an orrery, but I'm mostly happy.

 

[Jockey79]

Ok everyone. This is getting into a circular argument with posters agreeing with each other but in a passive aggressive manner which masks the fact that they're on the same page.

Profanity is not tolerated, as everyone well knows, and the last few posts have been verging towards personal insults.

As always - play the ball, not the player.

Please think carefully before you post, and if you're unable to do that, go and make a cup of tea and mull it over. If the topic descends into baiting or worse, it's not going to be an "open" letter for very long.

Please play nice.

Wow, first time I've seen you put your foot down with a firm fist.

I do have 1 issue though.... I'm out of milk for tea and I have no beer.
But, it is 2am.... so getting tired now.

Cultural differences might be the answer.

What Loetmichel wrote is completely acceptable in Germany. Sometimes it's difficult to know what other cultures consider acceptable and what not.

Aye, in the Republic of Ireland the "F" word is a normal everyday word.
Yet in England people freak out if you say it to them.

I'd type out examples of how weird it gets, but Slopey may slap me silly (wouldn't take much, I'm half way there )

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....
<shrug> I'm even seeing some of the White Knights are waking up and realizing there are problems all around.....

You talking about me again

Could at least wait until I've gone to bed before talking about me.... geez, doing it to my face, what ever next.

 

[Roybe]

Wow, first time I've seen you put your foot down with a firm fist.

I do have 1 issue though.... I'm out of milk for tea and I have no beer.
But, it is 2am.... so getting tired now.



Aye, in the Republic of Ireland the "F" word is a normal everyday word.
Yet in England people freak out if you say it to them.

I'd type out examples of how weird it gets, but Slopey may slap me silly (wouldn't take much, I'm half way there )

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You talking about me again

Could at least wait until I've gone to bed before talking about me.... geez, doing it to my face, what ever next.

I'll post on Facebook and talk about you there!

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Hey, I'm still mostly happy. I'd like a few additions to exploration and an orrery, but I'm mostly happy.

Well...maybe the explorers ARE the ones that are the least 'unhappy'...but there is enough grumbling amongst them that everyone knows it's not unicorns and rainbows for you guys either.

 

[Jockey79]

In my opinion they broke FDs ToS. The problem for me is not what SDC did, the problem is FDs reaction.

See, up until I read Zacs Reddit post - I'd have said the same.
I've always said griefing / harassment should be dealt with by banning those doing it (not that shadow rubbish, but proper bans).

But FD have said that it is not in breach of their rules.... we can argue that all we like but it wont change a darn thing.
Lets face it, it's taken how long just to get FD to actually respond on the topic of griefing to start with - we were asking them to comment over a year ago.

Perhaps we should have been more specific on the comment we wanted them to make

 

[Asp Explorer]

I'm out of milk for tea and I have no beer.

Tragedy!

We have the Fuel Rats. Nope - fuel no good here.
We have the Bacon Cats. Nope - bacon no good here.

We have the Drunks of Sol! Yup - beer would be good here!

And we are drinking all the beer

 

[Roybe]

See, up until I read Zacs Reddit post - I'd have said the same.
I've always said griefing / harassment should be dealt with by banning those doing it (not that shadow rubbish, but proper bans).

But FD have said that it is not in breach of their rules.... we can argue that all we like but it wont change a darn thing.
Lets face it, it's taken how long just to get FD to actually respond on the topic of griefing to start with - we were asking them to comment over a year ago.

Perhaps we should have been more specific on the comment we wanted them to make

Someone had to have the moxy to push the rules past the 'community standards'. This happened back in May (or somewhere around late spring...after the release of PowerPlay anyway) with the Mercs public Fifth columning...which was a very large firestorm that most missed.

Code did it with the Hutton Run.

Now this group pushed the 'standards' again.

Every time FDev has responded with 'We hate the actions, but it's not against the rules...' line.

So basically, everyone has to expect that dastardly deeds will be done...with more frequency and more virulence, until the community decides they do not want to play with these rules and either leaves or forces FDev to fix/change the rules. This is, apparently the game the devs want to play...so in the end...they might be playing it by themselves.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
But FD have said that it is not in breach of their rules....
…

That's the problem. Apparently FD doesn't know their own ToS. They could change it to reflect their intentions better, they could enforce their ToS, they could do a lot of things.

They opted to do the worst thing possible: Saying it's OK, but not nice - and ignoring their own ToS. They made a lot of customers angry and they devaluated their own ToS.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Please mate stop crying, it's all part of the game and the beauty of elite. I'm glad things like this happen. It's such an open game

I'm not your mate. I haven't shed a single tear. I was smart enough to see this coming waaay back when codies did it and haven't set foot in Mobius since. I am however, angry. Unlike you, I'm not glad that things like this happen. I guess I'm just silly in that I don't like seeing people abused in any fashion.

 

[Itaki]

I think people are overly immersed in their video game.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I think people are overly immersed in their video game.

I just blame humans.

 

[Kristov]

I just blame humans.

*puts away the ice cream and chocolate sauce*

I like you.

 

[excalibus]

After getting to page 31 or 32 in this thread and realising the rest of the thread is most likely to and fro on the same missed points...

My OPINION on this is simple, SDC members did the 'wrong thing' with regards to their behaviour...

Even though it was stated in the redit thread that SDC group is not 'responsible' for this and did not plan this, only some of their members planned and executed this, it has to reflect on the whole of SDC!!! Because no matter what anyone says, they deliberately set out to get into mobius as some perceieved 'retribution' for some mentioned BGS affect on the SDC groups own home system that they perveive was committed by Mobius. So the whole group IN MY OPINION are scum of the earth for going into Mobius with the plan to break the rules of the group and cause 'mayhem'

They have also claimed that the other reason for their doing this was because the game is IN THEIR OPINION broken and this was done to try to force FD to fix the 'broken' game.

FD's response of the event being 'unfortunate' but not taking a stance on this sort of behaviour is understandable from a company point of view in the regard of not wanting to alienate or disenfranchise anyone etc and would probably look even more like egg on face if they did so because of their recent 'promotion' of the SDC group.

Well their response (or rather their LACK OF A SUITABLE (TO ME) RESPONSE TO THIS) means I will be no longer be supporting FD with my wallet... I already have invested close to AUD $1,000 in this game with buiying into the Beta, LEP, Skins, Bobbleheads, Books, Soundtrack and a fair amount of physical merchandise through the store. IMHO a private groups 'rules' should be considered as valid rules by Frontier providing the groups rules DO NOT breach any of the existing rules layed out by Frontier Developments in the TOS and EULA.

People who then go into such a group with the sole purpose to break the groups rules, should then be treated the exact same way as if they breached the ToS or EULA and in doing so should be penalised with not only being banned from said group, but also shadowbanned or relegated to solo matchmaking for a period of time, and if members of the same player faction continue to display the same behaviour, then the whole player faction should face the real possibility of having their player faction removed from the game.


What irks me the most about this... PVP'ers always claiming to people who want a multiplayer PVE only experience to go to private group / mobius and then when they do, they still feel the need to come into the PVE only private groups with the only intention of causing problems and breaking the groups rules.

Enough is enough... No more money from me frontier until clear rules are set out for this sort of behaviour and if the 'clear rules' are that this sort of behaviour is acceptable then I am sorry to say but I am outta here... One of the selling points TO ME was when DB said in an interview that griefing could and would be dealt with... and now here FD are saying griefing is not against the rules... SO IT IS NOT BEING DEALT WITH!!!

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and just to add... SDC's behaviour could just have lost FD at least AUD $500 that I had planned to be spent through the FD store this year

It's this sort of behaviour that will have people leaving the game, that will have people not spending money with Frontier...

 

[Asp Explorer]

Unfortunately - I don't think FD can deal with such behavior. They have set those rules, publically displayed them, and they have not been broken. All that has been proven to be broken is the word of some players. They applied to join a group, based upon an understanding that some sort of acceptable behavior was to be adhered to, were accepted into that group - and then subsequently went and joyboyed it for lulz.

That is not against FD's rules. It's not nice behavior - but FD can't do anything about that. Groups can.

And so can individual pilots.

Seeing as FD have basically said "Play nasty if you want, it doesn't matter to us, just don't break the rules, and understand we will give you a disapproving eyebrow because we have to do something" then FD have to equally understand that the reciprocal is also acceptable.

I could show you how to play nasty, get a disapproving eyebrow from FD, lulz idiots into oblivion, and not break any rules.

Should I? Perhaps not. But I'm really tempted to

 

[excalibus]

Unfortunately - I don't think FD can deal with such behavior. They have set those rules, publically displayed them, and they have not been broken. All that has been proven to be broken is the word of some players. They applied to join a group, based upon an understanding that some sort of acceptable behavior was to be adhered to, were accepted into that group - and then subsequently went and joyboyed it for lulz.

That is not against FD's rules. It's not nice behavior - but FD can't do anything about that. Groups can.

And so can individual pilots.

Seeing as FD have basically said "Play nasty if you want, it doesn't matter to us, just don't break the rules, and understand we will give you a disapproving eyebrow because we have to do something" then FD have to equally understand that the reciprocal is also acceptable.

I could show you how to play nasty, get a disapproving eyebrow from FD, lulz idiots into oblivion, and not break any rules.

Should I? Perhaps not. But I'm really tempted to

it can be dealt with... not in this particular event but future 'events' can be nipped in the bud right now...
All it requires is for group management to be able to select a 'ruleset' for the group and either that ruleset is enforced through game mechanics or FDev to state that they will take a view that public rules that are agreed to when joining a private group such as mobius, as long as those group rules do not breach the games rules (TOS, EULA ETC) and someone breaks those group rules then they will be treated as if they broke the TOS or EULA and may be penalised for such behaviour... simple clear and defined...

 

[Asp Explorer]

All it requires is for group management to be able to select a 'ruleset' for the group

Unfortunately my friend - that is impossible. All groups consist of is IP passing on the matchmaking servers. There is no way of applying IF-THEN-ELSE to behavior of clients. There is nothing available for clients to compare their ruleset to.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

After getting to page 31 or 32 in this thread and realising the rest of the thread is most likely to and fro on the same missed points...

My OPINION on this is simple, SDC members did the 'wrong thing' with regards to their behaviour...

Even though it was stated in the redit thread that SDC group is not 'responsible' for this and did not plan this, only some of their members planned and executed this, it has to reflect on the whole of SDC!!! Because no matter what anyone says, they deliberately set out to get into mobius as some perceieved 'retribution' for some mentioned BGS affect on the SDC groups own home system that they perveive was committed by Mobius. So the whole group IN MY OPINION are scum of the earth for going into Mobius with the plan to break the rules of the group and cause 'mayhem'

They have also claimed that the other reason for their doing this was because the game is IN THEIR OPINION broken and this was done to try to force FD to fix the 'broken' game.

FD's response of the event being 'unfortunate' but not taking a stance on this sort of behaviour is understandable from a company point of view in the regard of not wanting to alienate or disenfranchise anyone etc and would probably look even more like egg on face if they did so because of their recent 'promotion' of the SDC group.

Well their response (or rather their LACK OF A SUITABLE (TO ME) RESPONSE TO THIS) means I will be no longer be supporting FD with my wallet... I already have invested close to AUD $1,000 in this game with buiying into the Beta, LEP, Skins, Bobbleheads, Books, Soundtrack and a fair amount of physical merchandise through the store. IMHO a private groups 'rules' should be considered as valid rules by Frontier providing the groups rules DO NOT breach any of the existing rules layed out by Frontier Developments in the TOS and EULA.

People who then go into such a group with the sole purpose to break the groups rules, should then be treated the exact same way as if they breached the ToS or EULA and in doing so should be penalised with not only being banned from said group, but also shadowbanned or relegated to solo matchmaking for a period of time, and if members of the same player faction continue to display the same behaviour, then the whole player faction should face the real possibility of having their player faction removed from the game.


What irks me the most about this... PVP'ers always claiming to people who want a multiplayer PVE only experience to go to private group / mobius and then when they do, they still feel the need to come into the PVE only private groups with the only intention of causing problems and breaking the groups rules.

Enough is enough... No more money from me frontier until clear rules are set out for this sort of behaviour and if the 'clear rules' are that this sort of behaviour is acceptable then I am sorry to say but I am outta here... One of the selling points TO ME was when DB said in an interview that griefing could and would be dealt with... and now here FD are saying griefing is not against the rules... SO IT IS NOT BEING DEALT WITH!!!

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

and just to add... SDC's behaviour could just have lost FD at least AUD $500 that I had planned to be spent through the FD store this year

It's this sort of behaviour that will have people leaving the game, that will have people not spending money with Frontier...

I think you're missing the point where the offender was banned from Mobius.
I also think you may be missing the point that they will ban if player harrassment and other insidious actions are involved.

Basically, a lot has been said in the last 24+ hours about the whole situation. It was started by the actions of one player and the reaction has been ridiculous considering the amount of damage they did.
Y'all seem to think FD don't care but the crime took place in Mobius, funnily enough where FD allowed players to be removed from so what exactly did they do wrong?
Problem was sorted so why all the after drama and threats because it's not even funny.
All you are doing is validating the actions of one at.
Take a step back and see it for what it is.

This post may be a bit late, sorry there.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

*puts away the ice cream and chocolate sauce*

I like you.

Hungry, are we?
I'll be keeping a close eye on you, human....

 

[excalibus]

Unfortunately my friend - that is impossible. All groups consist of is IP passing on the matchmaking servers. There is no way of applying IF-THEN-ELSE to behavior of clients. There is nothing available for clients to compare their ruleset to.

That can be 'developed' and then added to the client... Heck a ruleset could be 'dowloaded' at load time when you join the group and start the client... As I said I accept it can't change the present, but it can change the possibility of future recurrances... Of course the ruleset mechanics would need to be developed and then implemented at the client side which is why it could be something basic initially and then fleshed out during the lifecycle... initially it could be an all or nothing affair like the 'pvp fire turned on/off' and then in the next iteration allowing for it to be turned on / off in specific types of jurisdiction(CZ WZ), and then the next iteration allowing it to be turned on / off in specific system types etc etc.. and could 'apply' to various aspects of the game, so you could have a 'no trade' group if you wanted where trading was turned off but you could take on trade missions where you collect the goods or whatnot...

Banana I did not miss the point of them being removed from mobius at all... furthermore it was more than one at, go read the reddit thread... Oh I think you will find that this latest incursion into mobius is perhaps 'the straw' and for me it's not even so much about the damage caused to the mobius player, or the damage SDC members have done to how their own group is now viewed by other players, for me it's the fact that frontier have come out and stated that griefing is not against the rules, and apart from removing them from the mobius group (because mobius was unable to remove them due to the problems with the current group administration system) those players have not even been so much as had a single consequence, they knew they would be removed from mobius for breaking the rules so that is not a consequence for their actions...

It's the fact that a community manager and by virtue, FDev, won't stand up and say that this behaviour was wrong, all they could say was it was 'unfortunate'... yes indeed it is unfortunate, now they have a choice to either make it so it does not happen again, or make it so that if it does happen again there are clear consequences for those involved, or do nothing...