Open letter to Frontier

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Wow. Took a break, woke up this morning.... not only is this thread still here, now were talking lawyers and therapists.
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Time to abandon thread. Women and children first.
 
If enough people took this advice, then FD would have problems on a whole new level.

That's a bit the core of the problem isn't it? Let's hope enough players like this style of gameplay and enough players are happy with the Solo Mode and their own little private groups.

Otherwise…

But that's just it. FD clearly don't have a problem with losing players, or they would be doing something about this situation. David Braben has a vision for what he wants Elite Dangerous to become and he has demonstrated over the course of the last 18 months or so that he intends to stick to that vision. It seems clear from things he's said in dev diaries and statements he's made about "griefing" and so on that he's quite happy with these activities to take place in the game, as long as no exploits are used.

It's equally clear that a vocal percentage of the player base are not happy with those activities and are calling for change. A change that, as far as I can see, isn't going to come about. If you're one of the players who isn't happy with the way things are, or you don't like David's vision for the game, this leaves you with 2 options. Play solo, or play something else.
 
You seem to believe that people who want to play in PVE environment are doing so because they lack the skill to confront PVP environment... Sorry, but this is just unsubstantiated and completely illogical claim. The reason why people choose PVE over PVP is not because they are not able to fight human opponents, but because they do not want to. PVP gameplay does not require some sort of mystical superpower and the skill set is not really much different from what is required for PVE gameplay. When it comes to combat, it is in both cases about aiming accurately and avoiding getting damage, with the only difference being that some of the human commanders might be smarter than the AI ones or react quicker to changing conditions. But some people might have chosen to not develop their combat skills and this is their choice. Combat is just one of the gameplay elements, and just like some people might not enjoy trading, mining or exploration, some people might not enjoy the combat. Nobody forces combatants to do the mining or trading, but non-combatants do not have such a freedom of choice, especially in PVP environment.

It's like saying that people, who go to a coffee shop, should all like latte and never choose any other drinks. Just because.

+rep

I couldnt have worded that in any better way.
 
But that's just it. … Play solo, or play something else.

As I wrote, hopefully enough players like to play in Solo Mode, in small private Private Group Mode groups and in Open Mode.

If too many players decide to play something else nobody will be able to play ED. Sticking to a vision is all nice and good, if enough others are willing to pay for that vision. Without money form the customers FD won't be able to keep developing a game that fits David's vision.
 
... David Braben has a vision for what he wants Elite Dangerous to become and he has demonstrated over the course of the last 18 months or so that he intends to stick to that vision. It seems clear from things he's said in dev diaries and statements he's made about "griefing" and so on that he's quite happy with these activities to take place in the game, as long as no exploits are used.

Exept that he also stated an abundance of times that he thinks any PvP combat should be rare and mean something to both. Not being simple kills for the giggles of some and the grief of others. And of course not happen as the ONLY interaction in open.
So basically what open has become isnt the thing the he envisioned. So there has to be either a new mode where his vision could be implemented OR open has to be modified until its back to his vision. "easy as that".


It's equally clear that a vocal percentage of the player base are not happy with those activities and are calling for change. A change that, as far as I can see, isn't going to come about. If you're one of the players who isn't happy with the way things are, or you don't like David's vision for the game, this leaves you with 2 options. Play solo, or play something else.

That this change isnt coming eventually is YOUR whishful thinking. As i stated above its not the off the track to assume that SOMETHING will be done to accomodate the vision David seem to have for the game.
 
Exept that he also stated an abundance of times that he thinks any PvP combat should be rare and mean something to both. Not being simple kills for the giggles of some and the grief of others. And of course not happen as the ONLY interaction in open.
So basically what open has become isnt the thing the he envisioned. So there has to be either a new mode where his vision could be implemented OR open has to be modified until its back to his vision. "easy as that".




That this change isnt coming eventually is YOUR whishful thinking. As i stated above its not the off the track to assume that SOMETHING will be done to accomodate the vision David seem to have for the game.

This very week Sandro explicitly and literally said that regardless of the changes they are considering, 'griefcondas killing newbwinders' (his words) will continue to be allowed, with the only consequences being in-game. Its really simple: if you think that is 'griefing', griefing is allowed by FD and will continue to be allowed. I'm perfectly fine with it, but to each his own.
 
This very week Sandro explicitly and literally said that regardless of the changes they are considering, 'griefcondas killing newbwinders' (his words) will continue to be allowed, with the only consequences being in-game. Its really simple: if you think that is 'griefing', griefing is allowed by FD and will continue to be allowed. I'm perfectly fine with it, but to each his own.

Sure it is allowed. As is Combat to players in general. According to DB himself its just not envisioned as being there in abundance and at every corner that has some players in it.
Its meant to be rare. And as it isnt there will be some "correctional forces" to make it rare. Or they had thrown their (often quoted by the PvP club!) "vision" overboard completely.

Let me ask a question to all the ones that cant seem to comprehend any _fact_ that isnt in their favor: Are you to dumb to see the facts that dont fit your vision or are you deliberately ignoring them?
And i dont mean that as an insult, i just want to know if i am talking with simply less intelligent or with simply arrogant opponents (or if there is another explanation for that behavior).
 
Sure it is allowed. As is Combat to players in general. According to DB himself its just not envisioned as being there in abundance and at every corner that has some players in it.
Its meant to be rare. And as it isnt there will be some "correctional forces" to make it rare. Or they had thrown their (often quoted by the PvP club!) "vision" overboard completely.

Let me ask a question to all the ones that cant seem to comprehend any _fact_ that isnt in their favor: Are you to dumb to see the facts that dont fit your vision or are you deliberately ignoring them?
And i dont mean that as an insult, i just want to know if i am talking with simply less intelligent or with simply arrogant opponents (or if there is another explanation for that behavior).
While I'm with you he really only points the Gamerules on which he is very much true. If those rules maybe be problematic in the long run doesn't really matter, all we as players can do is to stick to the rules we are given by the Game. And that means everybody playing ED with others must agree to be a possible target for griefing, because if he becomes one the griefer has done nothing wrong and can't be blamed.
 
Exept that he also stated an abundance of times that he thinks any PvP combat should be rare and mean something to both. ...

PvP is rare, if you stay away from player hubs / community goals.

Also, DBOBE said seeing "another player" would be rare - I've linked the video a few pages back.
So should player hubs and CGs be shut down - as they are very busy with players ?

...
And i dont mean that as an insult, i just want to know if i am talking with simply less intelligent or with simply arrogant opponents (or if there is another explanation for that behavior).

Questioning a persons intelligence is insulting no matter how you want to word it.
Plus I've told you twice about insulting others in your posts #547 and #550 and linked you the forum rules in my post #561
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
All,

If you are concerned about a post, please report it using the "Report this post" option and the moderators will look at it. Otherwise, please stick to the topic and avoid commenting about the poster and/or your opinion about their IQ or other attributes - this will be quite likely to end up with your post being moderated or worse. Moderators are not able to read every single post on all these forums so you would need to report a post to be sure it is looked at.

Also, just a reminder to all that moderators are volunteers and are still permitted to post their opinions about topics on the forum. If you believe a moderator has taken an inappropriate moderation action you can report their post or send a PM to the community managers at FD and they will look at your issue. Posts that break the forum rules are liable to moderation regardless of whether any particular moderator agrees or not with the general opinions of the poster.

In the meantime, I believe this thread is supposed to be specifically about player groups gaining membership of private groups with the intention of breaking the meta rules defined by the owner of that private group, and FD's policy on that. If you want to discuss play modes in general there is another thread for that.
 
Its not 'disgusting'. If you want your own private group, you've gotta police it yourself. Its kinda ironic to complain about 'weak knees' in this situation, but fine. FD cannot be expected to be Mobius' nanny. There is no officially supported PvE multi-player mode, and there is very little chance of that ever being added. As for Open, one of the devs, sandro, explicitly said in the 'pvp consequences' topic they do NOT want to 'punish' non-consensual pvp or ban 'griefcondas' against 'newbwinders', but only add in-game consequences. The consequences currently being considered are increased security strength and response times in hi-sec systems, far larger financial punishments and intra-system fines and, more importantly, non-financial punishments such as restricted docking rights. These changes would ofcourse also impact Mobius. Beyond that: good luck. If this is for you a reason to quite, so be it. You're just one person out of 1.4 million customers, and I dont see why you are somehow more special than any other. I personally would rather see FD not spend a single minute of their time on private groups, but if they do, that is their call.

And yes, what that person did was ultra-lame. So just ban him from mobius and move on. Or complain, which seems to be the go-to solution for some.

It's not about being a nanny but about FD doing there jobs. I would argue that if someone infiltrates a group that doesn't allow pvp for the sole purpose to go kill the carebears while ignoring the strict pvp rules then that would indeed be griefing if not outright harassment as per the statement below.


......whilst protecting against malicious griefing (which we loosely define as actions whose only purpose, outcome and gain is to punish and frustrate other players).
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4604&p=67005&viewfull=1#post67005


Seems pretty clear to me the infiltration was done with the sole purpose "to punish and frustrate other players" or should I say group.
 
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As i stated above its not the off the track to assume that SOMETHING will be done to accomodate the vision David seem to have for the game.
I'm not sure the vision David has for this game is the same one he was promoting pre-Kickstarter. Perhaps floods of players describing ED as the best PvP game ever and encouraging their cash-wielding brethren to join the party will do that. And you can't really blame them, especially the subset that thrives on imbalanced PvP. ED is the only game I can think of in which the default* play mode permits wings of battleships to roflstomp spud-gun shuttles, or weakly-armed explorers with months of game time invested, with zero meaningful consequences. If those sorts of activity form part of your desired playing style, ED as it stands right now must seem like a dream come true.

This very week Sandro explicitly and literally said that regardless of the changes they are considering, 'griefcondas killing newbwinders' (his words) will continue to be allowed, with the only consequences being in-game. Its really simple: if you think that is 'griefing', griefing is allowed by FD and will continue to be allowed. I'm perfectly fine with it, but to each his own.
I'm fine with it too, as long as we actually get some of those mythical in-game consequences of which there are fifty shades of nowt at the moment. I've read all of Sandro's ideas in the other thread and they have much merit, but then so did many of the ideas FD and the DDF spent a year mulling over back in 2013/2014. We saw fifty shades of nowt come from that either, so forgive me if a little cynicism seeps through.


[SUP]* arguably not a "default" in some interpretations, as you still have to press a key to select it. But certainly the one that's pre-selected on the menu.​
[/SUP]
 
...I believe this thread is supposed to be specifically about player groups gaining membership of private groups with the intention of breaking the meta rules defined by the owner of that private group, and FD's policy on that. ....

Well the problem really comes down to one thing - a private group can set all the custom rules it wants, but the game nor Frontier support that option.

While the work and effort Mobius has put in to create a PvE group (and I applaud what he is trying to do) - his rules mean squat.
And now, Frontier have confirmed that exact thing.

In Warframe they call their matchmaking groups;

Public
Friends
Solo

Perhaps FD should do the same? Maybe then people would not be fooled in to thinking there is a PvE Mode where one does not exist.
 
+rep

I couldnt have worded that in any better way.

You seem to believe that people who want to play in PVE environment are doing so because they lack the skill to confront PVP environment... Sorry, but this is just unsubstantiated and completely illogical claim. The reason why people choose PVE over PVP is not because they are not able to fight human opponents, but because they do not want to. PVP gameplay does not require some sort of mystical superpower and the skill set is not really much different from what is required for PVE gameplay. When it comes to combat, it is in both cases about aiming accurately and avoiding getting damage, with the only difference being that some of the human commanders might be smarter than the AI ones or react quicker to changing conditions. But some people might have chosen to not develop their combat skills and this is their choice. Combat is just one of the gameplay elements, and just like some people might not enjoy trading, mining or exploration, some people might not enjoy the combat. Nobody forces combatants to do the mining or trading, but non-combatants do not have such a freedom of choice, especially in PVP environment.

It's like saying that people, who go to a coffee shop, should all like latte and never choose any other drinks. Just because.

Some Rep for last posts answer. I cannot believe the arrogance of some PvP CMDRS who make the assumption that PvE players lack the skill! The PvP supporters throw their dollies out of the pram because people don't want to play their way!
 
For people who doesn't want PvP in Open: just avoid PvP. There's a lot of strategies in avoiding PvP and surviving it is definitely possible. More experienced players here are willing to provide a tip or two on how to counter griefers. If you think PvP in this game doesn't make you enjoy it, that will be akin to some players complaining that they do not enjoy the game because they're being interdicted by NPC pirates while they're smuggling. Regardless of the degree of the complaints, one thing is common: you do not know how to deal with the game. If the game just doesn't work for you, nobody forces you to play it just to complain more. There's a lot of playable space games to choose from and hopefully you find the right game that meets your demands.
 
For people who doesn't want PvP in Open: just avoid PvP. There's a lot of strategies in avoiding PvP and surviving it is definitely possible. More experienced players here are willing to provide a tip or two on how to counter griefers. If you think PvP in this game doesn't make you enjoy it, that will be akin to some players complaining that they do not enjoy the game because they're being interdicted by NPC pirates while they're smuggling. Regardless of the degree of the complaints, one thing is common: you do not know how to deal with the game. If the game just doesn't work for you, nobody forces you to play it just to complain more. There's a lot of playable space games to choose from and hopefully you find the right game that meets your demands.

People who chose not to play in open know how to 'deal with the game' perfectly well. By not playing in open...
 
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