Open-Only in PP2.0

[Shurimal]

Nowhere in the game you are told to destroy enemy commanders and nowhere in the game you are told to destroy NPC X which is carrying merits and by doing so you prevent the enemy power gains over your power.

But PP menu tells you to go and kill enemy NPC-s that have a specific name (eg Federal Agents or something like that), explicitly to disrupt enemy operations. The NPC-s aren't carrying merits as players are, but are quite explicitly important for the PP faction.

Everything vanishes when you die - or it used to before FD messed with combat bonds and made them permanent

That change I think was made in the context of Thargoid war. You're expected to die a lot in this purely co-op and PvE war, and losing tens or even hundreds of millions of bonds every time you do would be just too frustrating. Since your combat bonds don't matter for thargoids at all, making them permanent was the only right call.

 

[Rubbernuke]

NPC are worth merits indeed, and if you destroy an NPC, YOU get merits.
However the enemy power loses nothing

The enemy power loses a lot if a player holding a snipe or large amount is destroyed.

 

[Northpin]

Then why have 10 other powers or PP NPCs?

because we have a galaxy populated by NPC - which are mandatory for ED as a game
Other players are optional, and i've said multiple times - if FD removes open only, all the game features will function as good as they currently do.

Sure, i would not be happy if they would remove Open as a game mode, since it will remove the chance to meet and interact with a random commander, but the game itself wont miss it.

 

[Northpin]

But PP menu tells you to go and kill enemy NPC-s that have a specific name (eg Federal Agents or something like that), explicitly to disrupt enemy operations. The NPC-s aren't carrying merits as players are, but are quite explicitly important for the PP faction.

Yes, the same way in which it tells me to go hunt Pirate Lord X, or defector Y or members of the Faction X
However, if i kill those Agents, i DO gain merits, but the Power does not lose anytthing

The enemy power loses a lot if a player holding a snipe or large amount is destroyed.

It sure does, but that's not the winning condition

Basically that why i'm mostly against PVP in Elite - simply because you dont gain anything by PVP, you do PVP to make the other one lose something.
But since you dont gain anything you cant win anything, because you cannot really make the other one to lose Everything and even if you do, it will still a Null game 0 to 0

If i kill you 9 out of 10 times, and you deliver one run, you still win.
I dont

 

[August Lagrange]

Sure, i would not be happy if they would remove Open as a game mode, since it will remove the chance to meet and interact with a random commander, but the game itself wont miss it.

In the sense that it would see massive amounts of disengagement within the PowerPlay community at large, yes, it would miss it. That's a lot of people that enjoy being able to interact with their opposition. In fact, a lot of the elements of gameplay currently enjoyed would be lacking. Even if the code remains the same, the lack of those interactions would mean possible experiences are missing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

because we have a galaxy populated by NPC - which are mandatory for ED as a game
Other players are optional, and i've said multiple times - if FD removes open only, all the game features will function as good as they currently do.

Sure, i would not be happy if they would remove Open as a game mode, since it will remove the chance to meet and interact with a random commander, but the game itself wont miss it.

which are mandatory for ED as a game

Yes- NPCs are required to make life outside PvE merit making areas or cargo runs difficult and uncertain. Otherwise, where is the game? Its a poor spaceship game if you barely have to touch the controls or that you can ignore the slaps they give you.

if FD removes open only, all the game features will function as good as they currently do.

If they did, you'd be left (in PP terms) with even less than it is now, given NPCs do nothing against you.

Open as a game mode, since it will remove the chance to meet and interact with a random commander, but the game itself wont miss it.

Funny that interaction never is about shooting, even in a competitive team v team feature in a game where killing is not wrong ? When Sandro described PP as 'consensual PvP' he meant that Powerplay is double gated opt in- you opt into Open and opt into Powerplay and that this is the place to find and do it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It sure does, but that's not the winning condition

Basically that why i'm mostly against PVP in Elite - simply because you dont gain anything by PVP, you do PVP to make the other one lose something.
But since you dont gain anything you cant win anything, because you cannot really make the other one to lose Everything and even if you do, it will still a Null game 0 to 0

If i kill you 9 out of 10 times, and you deliver one run, you still win.
I dont

?

The 'winning condition' is at cycles end your power is solvent and that you have disrupted your rivals so they turmoil.

If I kill someone holding 10,000 merits that ability to turmoil my power vanishes, or that a rival was able to fortify enough to counter. Slow that enough and they get into trouble- but that can't happen if nothing stops or diverts you. Hence why either players or NPCs have to get mean otherwise all hauls are 100% successful (which leads to a dull min/ max game).

If i kill you 9 out of 10 times, and you deliver one run, you still win.
I dont

If I'm holding UM merits, you very much win as I've lost my work. If I'm the only one fortifying a distant system you very much win because I lose my cargo, denied my power work and slowed it down. In a time constrained situation there is finite work you can do.

 

[Northpin]

If they did, you'd be left (in PP terms) with even less than it is now, given NPCs do nothing against you.

Which is irrelevant since the wining condition does not depend on what those npc are trying.
They could slow you down if they're too hard, but not prevent you from doing PP
And if they make NPC that hard they could literally prevent you to do PP, people will simply stop doing PP

Funny that interaction never is about shooting, even in a competitive team v team feature in a game where killing is not wrong ?

If you design a game which makes this type of play the only way - then yes. I did play 6000h of Dota2, 5vs5 team PVP
But Elite is not that game - and PVP in ED is something that is actually completely optional, even in Powerplay
The only mode where PVP is mandatory is CQC

When Sandro described PP as 'consensual PvP' he meant that Powerplay is double gated opt in- you opt into Open and opt into Powerplay and that this is the place to find and do it.

Sandro is long gone from ED, his ideas were not seen acceptable by the management back then
So what he said 6 years ago had no meaning for the game we played in the last 6 years.

 

[Shurimal]

Yes- NPCs are required to make life outside PvE merit making areas or cargo runs difficult and uncertain. Otherwise, where is the game? Its a poor spaceship game if you barely have to touch the controls or that you can ignore the slaps they give you.

Absolutely. I find it funny that I can waltz into another power's territory and no npc bats an eye. At the very least make opposing superpower NPC-s actively hostile. If I pledge to eg Arissa and go into a RES in Hudson system the powerplay NPC-s there should go all "shoot first, ask questions later". And every other PP NPC should be actively hostile to an Archon's pledge

 

[Northpin]

Absolutely. I find it funny that I can waltz into another power's territory and no npc bats an eye. At the very least make opposing superpower NPC-s actively hostile. If I pledge to eg Arissa and go into a RES in Hudson system the powerplay NPC-s there should go all "shoot first, ask questions later". And every other PP NPC should be actively hostile to an Archon's pledge

This complain - the NPC are too weak - does appear very often - obviously from cmdrs with strong flying skills and strong ships, which are usually present on the forums too.
However, FD never upped the general NPC level - maybe because the vast majority of players are not at that level and FD has to cater for the vast majority - which majority is not even on these forums (still from time to time we do see threads complaining about npc being too nasty)

I would not mind if FDev ups the ante - strictly for PP NPC - however since they never did that until now, it can only mean they wanted PP to be accessible to the vast majority of the player base instead of keeping it for the pilots' elites.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Which is irrelevant since the wining condition does not depend on what those npc are trying.
They could slow you down if they're too hard, but not prevent you from doing PP
And if they make NPC that hard they could literally prevent you to do PP, people will simply stop doing PP

In a hypothetical PP NPCs killed 50% of your runs, you'd have to do 50% more work or forced to change your tactics because other powers are trying to disrupt your power at the same time. They are there as opposition, not window dressing.

Time is vital in PP, and the less you have the harder you have to work since the material you shift is infinite.

With nothing pushing back powers can easily predict and support larger empires because everything is 100% efficient.

If you design a game which makes this type of play the only way - then yes. I did play 6000h of Dota2, 5vs5 team PVP
But Elite is not that game - and PVP in ED is something that is actually completely optional, even in Powerplay
The only mode where PVP is mandatory is CQC

And as I keep on pointing out- because NPCs don't add the variability and opposition to make PP interesting, players do. NPCs lack the persistence, variability as well as consistency given PPs scope is literally the entire bubble split into explicit territories.

Sandro is long gone from ED, his ideas were not seen acceptable by the management back then
So what he said 6 years ago had no meaning for the game we played in the last 6 years.

Well his comments are valid since he's talking about FDs views about the current design which has not changed. And bear in mind every proposal for PP has had Open or some modification of the status quo. Thats flash topic 1, 2, a subsequent plan discussed on the PP / leader dev discord, and now V2.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Absolutely. I find it funny that I can waltz into another power's territory and no npc bats an eye. At the very least make opposing superpower NPC-s actively hostile. If I pledge to eg Arissa and go into a RES in Hudson system the powerplay NPC-s there should go all "shoot first, ask questions later". And every other PP NPC should be actively hostile to an Archon's pledge

It got so basic that bots started doing runs. I once counted how many keys I pressed and....it was not a lot.

 

[Rubbernuke]

This complain - the NPC are too weak - does appear very often - obviously from cmdrs with strong flying skills and strong ships, which are usually present on the forums too.
However, FD never upped the general NPC level - maybe because the vast majority of players are not at that level and FD has to cater for the vast majority - which majority is not even on these forums (still from time to time we do see threads complaining about npc being too nasty)

I would not mind if FDev ups the ante - strictly for PP NPC - however since they never did that until now, it can only mean they wanted PP to be accessible to the vast majority of the player base instead of keeping it for the pilots' elites.

I'd like to know the stats for how many PP pledges actually get blown up by PP NPCs. I bet its not many, given ubiquitous engineering, new modules and other advantages are denied NPCs.

No PP NPC has engineering either. This is for a good reason inside PvE areas like expansion CZs where farming is the order of the day, but is bad outside of it as adjusters are toothless, and that intruders are ineffectual.

And again, as I said either her or elsewhere NPCs need to be harder but in a graded way- which requires a redesign to price in danger that might actually harm you. I find it amusing that death by Thargoids is taken as given, but in PP (which is opt in) its not and that its required to make a semblance of a varied experience.

 

[Northpin]

And as I keep on pointing out- because NPCs don't add the variability and opposition to make PP interesting, players do. NPCs lack the persistence, variability as well as consistency given PPs scope is literally the entire bubble split into explicit territories.

You keep pointing this, indeed
But the game itself is very categoric - other players are optional and players in Solo or PG are not punished because they chose to play in those modes.
This is how it currently is.
We will see how PP20 will work after they release it and how it will going to get tweaked, because it will get tweaked.

Well his comments are valid since he's talking about FDs views about the current design which has not changed. And bear in mind every proposal for PP has had Open or some modification of the status quo. Thats flash topic 1, 2, a subsequent plan discussed on the PP / leader dev discord, and now V2.

Well, his ideas were relevant to the game, for a while. Then he either left or was removed from the ED design team and his ideas were not implemented in the game. Which means they were not longer relevant.
Why? i think because the was pushing PVP too much in a game that was not designed for PVP. And it is still not designed for PVP

And after 6 years we are both here - however, if his ideas regarding open-only and PVP would have made it through - i'm pretty sure i would be on some other forums now instead of ED forums. Maybe you too - because a PVP game that fails to attract a sufficient enough number of player is a dead PVP game. (cue in my favorite example of an Elite killer wannabe, Dual Universe)

 

[Felix DiCestria]

This complain - the NPC are too weak - does appear very often - obviously from cmdrs with strong flying skills and strong ships, which are usually present on the forums too.
However, FD never upped the general NPC level - maybe because the vast majority of players are not at that level and FD has to cater for the vast majority - which majority is not even on these forums (still from time to time we do see threads complaining about npc being too nasty)

I would not mind if FDev ups the ante - strictly for PP NPC - however since they never did that until now, it can only mean they wanted PP to be accessible to the vast majority of the player base instead of keeping it for the pilots' elites.

I got interdicted by PP bots while pledged to Delaine, very early on.
Even by NPC standards they're clay pigeons.
Their principal defence is the bounty you get for popping them.

 

[Northpin]

I got interdicted by PP bots while pledged to Delaine, very early on.
Even by NPC standards they're clay pigeons.
Their principal defence is the bounty you get for popping them.

yes, i avoid interfering with them because i like to keep my nose clean

 

[Rubbernuke]

You keep pointing this, indeed
But the game itself is very categoric - other players are optional and players in Solo or PG are not punished because they chose to play in those modes.
This is how it currently is.
We will see how PP20 will work after they release it and how it will going to get tweaked, because it will get tweaked.

Within solo and PG nothing can stop you outside a power cut. Its not punishing players by getting them to use skills to avoid roving NPCs (or players) to introduce low level uncertainty destablising higher level workings, in a feature about 11 conflicting powers- this should not be 11 way U Haul Wars.

Well, his ideas were relevant to the game, for a while. Then he either left or was removed from the ED design team and his ideas were not implemented in the game. Which means they were not longer relevant.
Why? i think because the was pushing PVP too much in a game that was not designed for PVP. And it is still not designed for PVP

And after 6 years we are both here - however, if his ideas regarding open-only and PVP would have made it through - i'm pretty sure i would be on some other forums now instead of ED forums. Maybe you too - because a PVP game that fails to attract a sufficient enough number of player is a dead PVP game. (cue in my favorite example of an Elite killer wannabe, Dual Universe)

Do I have to reiterate that PP has features that bring it a whisker away from being good for PvP? Explicit pledges, territory, limited specific PP cargoes, 1:1 effort, near real time feedback, multiple PP reports on attacks- it all adds up to a PvP friendly package since I can know intent from your pledge, what you carry, what your bounty is and where you are.

Maybe you too - because a PVP game that fails to attract a sufficient enough number of player is a dead PVP game. (cue in my favorite example of an Elite killer wannabe, Dual Universe)

You don't know until you try (and plenty of people do reading responses)- PP is not the entirety of ED, having one feature dedicated to team v team PvP is broadening its appeal.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I got interdicted by PP bots while pledged to Delaine, very early on.
Even by NPC standards they're clay pigeons.
Their principal defence is the bounty you get for popping them.

yes, i avoid interfering with them because i like to keep my nose clean

PP bounties currently are separate from the main C+P, and that its only when other clay pigeons of that power scan you do they get angry and try to attack.

That, and if they attack you they IIRC become wanted and the slightly better fluffy police go after them.

At one point the defection police had a bug where they had no interdictor.

 

[August Lagrange]

At one point the defection police had a bug where they had no interdictor.

Did they resolve that? I haven't defected in a while but I did find it amusing when I was shopping.

 

[Shurimal]

You know what would be wicked? Make powerplay NPC-s dangerous--give them G5 dirty drag drives, phasing PA-s, drag munition packhounds, resonant cascade torpedoes, SCO drives. Make them actively pursuit players, haulers and fighter alike.

But in solo/PG only

That way you have a choice: face dangerous NPC-s with 100% certainty; or have an uncertain chance of meeting an even more dangerous player opforce.

Choose wisely, young padawan

...and thus biblical amounts of forum/Reddit salt shall be generated