Open-Only in PP2.0?

So is this financial, or is it in effects rendered to advance the power for whom you are acting?
In the idea its financial with INF rewards for either completion or destruction (as it is in V2). The hauler gets far more since there are more variables.

Its worth noting that players who somehow are shot down by PP NPCs don't count negatively against your power, unlike in PvP where they do (in V1 IIRC is 1 merit, in V2 is INF).
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And in those cases you are lucky when you are in the clear. Other times you won't and will have to cope with what you have and can do.
If the skill floor for Powerplay 2.0 is too high in general and in Open in particular is too high then players simply won't choose to engage in it - which would mean that the long awaited major feature overhaul that all players have been awaiting for quite some time would be a bit of a damp squib for most players.
The GTX was a one off, but my question was would the character of the CG been different? You could steal the GTX from others and blow others up to 'win'.
Probably. Interesting that nothing like it has been done in the over nine years since. Maybe that speaks to Frontier's understanding of the player-base as a whole.
Its very much like Drews 'real time' event where people were purposefully hunted- would the character be the same if you relied on NPCs?
There were so many things broken with that event that the outcome was pretty clear even before it started. Not that many players took part in relation to the player-base. Some still hail it as the greatest in-game event to date. The opinions of some others may differ.
 
If the skill floor for Powerplay 2.0 is too high in general and in Open in particular is too high then players simply won't choose to engage in it - which would mean that the long awaited major feature overhaul that all players have been awaiting for quite some time would be a bit of a damp squib for most players.
People will do something if they feel they'll get something out of it. Making a mode or feature difficult but have corresponding rewards is simply common sense.

Probably. Interesting that nothing like it has been done in the over nine years since. Maybe that speaks to Frontier's understanding of the player-base as a whole.
More than likely FD don't have the prizes and that they want more PR than keeping it in game. These days its all Twitter and Twitch, with decals and ARX in game.

There were so many things broken with that event that the outcome was pretty clear even before it started. Not that many players took part in relation to the player-base. Some still hail it as the greatest in-game event to date. The opinions of some others may differ.
You are not answering the question- would have NPCs been as effective? Could an NPC chase and shoot you down across the inhabited bubble like players do in PP?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
People will do something if they feel they'll get something out of it. Making a mode or feature difficult but have corresponding rewards is simply common sense.
Indeed - and if they feel that they're going backwards (as some no doubt did during the bugged NPCs of 2.1) then they won't play it.
You are not answering the question- would have NPCs been as effective? Could an NPC chase and shoot you down across the inhabited bubble like players do in PP?
NPCs could have been more effective than the players involved - completely unavoidable and posing an insurmountable risk to every player - Frontier don't choose to release them though. What I'm getting at is that for many that level of challenge isn't "fun", so it's likely not worth the development time.
 
Why is this even being asked? In PP V1 NPCs are from 2015. Even 2024 NPCs are not as good. The only NPCs that pose a challenge are Thargoids, and even then players have soloed many, if not all of them.

You are choosing to be weaker, rather than having a situation where you are at your best but at a disadvantage. You are mitigating risk by doing your best but in the end situations in Powerplay are not and never will be balanced- its never going to be CQC.
The capabilities of the Elite (pun intended) should not be the baseline when considering what players are capable of broadly. The fact that some CMDRs can solo them doesn't mean they're not a threat to the majority. I can't take on Hydras solo, that's for damn sure. If I could, I might want to go into Open and test my mettle against other CMDRs that might provide more of a challenge to keep things interesting.

If I were go into Open now I could run into a rookie in a Sidewinder dipping their toes into PowerPlay to see what it's about, is that risky for me? No. I could run into you, and have my rear-end spanked into oblivion, which wouldn't be a risk to you. How do we determine what constitutes a risk? To the rookie the PP Police will be a risk, to you they aren't. Do I get a bigger bonus when competing with you or the rookie?

It'll never be an even playing field, as you rightly say, there's too many variables to make it "fair", so I still stand by the simplicity of the PvP challenge being the bonus of playing in Open, if you want that as part your session because that's how you have fun. The rookie can go have the same level of fun against the NPCs in Solo and contribute without feeling like they're being punished until they want the challenge of Open.
 
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Indeed - and if they feel that they're going backwards (as some no doubt did during the bugged NPCs of 2.1) then they won't play it.

NPCs could have been more effective than the players involved - completely unavoidable and posing an insurmountable risk to every player - Frontier don't choose to release them though. What I'm getting at is that for many that level of challenge isn't "fun", so it's likely not worth the development time.
How could the NPCs been 'better'? Players plan and execute tactics outside of what an instanced NPC can do. Its been a long, long time since the same NPC chased me between two systems, let alone across half the bubble.

Indeed - and if they feel that they're going backwards (as some no doubt did during the bugged NPCs of 2.1) then they won't play it.
But we are not talking about them. We are talking about people looking at Open, seeing a small bonus for being in it and going 'I'll choose that'.
 
While making PvE much more engaging is a must, other players will always be better or be a more direct way of preventing what others want to do.

Only when the stars align, and even then it’s my experience that most potential opposition get left flat footed when you don’t follow their “script.”

All games have rewards and Open should be no different given the situations in Powerplay- FD are already 'coercing' / tempting players to play Powerplay with huge rewards.

And that reward for playing in Open should be because it’s fun to play in Open. It’s when there are other rewards besides fun to be gained through playing in Open that you create more problems than you solve. Especially when there’s disagreement ton whether there’s a problem at all.
 
The capabilities of the Elite (pun intended) should not be the baseline when considering what players are capable of broadly. The fact that some CMDRs can solo them doesn't mean they're not a threat to the majority. I can't take on Hydras solo, that's for damn sure. If I could, I might want to go into Open and test my mettle against other CMDRs that might provide more of a challenge to keep things interesting.

If I were go into Open now I could run into a rookie in a Sidewinder dipping their toes into PowerPlay to see what it's about, is that risky for me? No. I could run into you, and have my rear-end spanked into oblivion, which wouldn't be a risk to you. How do we determine what constitutes a risk? To the rookie the PP Police will be a risk, to you they aren't. Do I get a bigger bonus when competing with you or the rookie?

It'll never be an even playing field, as you rightly say, there's too many variables to make it "fair", so I still stand by the simplicity of the PvP challenge being the bonus of playing in Open, if you want that as part your session because that's how you have fun. The rookie can go have the same level of fun against the NPCs in Solo and contribute without feeling like they're being punished until they want the challenge of Open.
The capabilities of the Elite (pun intended) should not be the baseline when considering what players are capable of broadly. The fact that some CMDRs can solo them doesn't mean they're not a threat to the majority. I can't take on Hydras solo, that's for damn sure. If I could, I might want to go into Open and test my mettle against other CMDRs that might provide more of a challenge to keep things interesting.
That was an extreme example, but at the same time there are no roving PP NPCs (or NPCs in general) that can actually effect the outcome of what is an objectives based feature like players can- thats the issue. In V1 every NPC is 2015 era. Something has to act on them otherwise it distorts the meta strategy game above it. V1 has no NPC opposition, V2 has in some places, but its players alone that raid other powers.

From my years in Utopia running the Reddit and elsewhere, as well as being on most if not all Power discords no-one has ever said they'd been shot down by an NPC.

If I were go into Open now I could run into a rookie in a Sidewinder dipping their toes into PowerPlay to see what it's about, is that risky for me? No. I could run into you, and have my rear-end spanked into oblivion, which wouldn't be a risk to you. How do we determine what constitutes a risk? To the rookie the PP Police will be a risk, to you they aren't. Do I get a bigger bonus when competing with you or the rookie?
And if that rookie was in Powerplay, then its bad luck for them- they chose to be in Powerplay and that its actually a goal to kill others in Open, just as it is to haul or UM. Thats the risk you take, and thus why rewards need to be higher since you are taking everything on- NPCs, rival pledges as well as non pledges.

It'll never be an even playing field, as you rightly say, there's too many variables to make it "fair", so I still stand by the simplicity of the PvP challenge being the bonus of playing in Open, if you want that as part your session because that's how you have fun. The rookie can go have the same level of fun against the NPCs in Solo and contribute without feeling like they're being punished until they want the challenge of Open.
The problem is Powerplay has a strategic gain for not being in Open, just as PG and solo offer tangible benefits.
 
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Only when the stars align, and even then it’s my experience that most potential opposition get left flat footed when you don’t follow their “script.”
They seem to align just fine for me and many others over the years.

And that reward for playing in Open should be because it’s fun to play in Open. It’s when there are other rewards besides fun to be gained through playing in Open that you create more problems than you solve. Especially when there’s disagreement ton whether there’s a problem at all.
I can extend that logic to any feature that offers a bonus- is it fun? Whats in it for me for doing more?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
How could the NPCs been 'better'? Players plan and execute tactics outside of what an instanced NPC can do. Its been a long, long time since the same NPC chased me between two systems, let alone across half the bubble.
NPCs, as part of the game, would know exactly where their target was at all times and are not subject to trivial limitations like jump range, super-cruise speed, etc., i.e. they can be spawned at need by the game anywhere. That NPCs don't hunt players down likely speaks to how Frontier understands their player-base, e.g. a mission NPC only makes one attempt to interdict a player if the player wins the interdiction. Thargoids interdict more often though.
But we are not talking about them. We are talking about people looking at Open, seeing a small bonus for being in it and going 'I'll choose that'.
How many of those players are there expected to be, noting that we've been told that "a lot" of players don't engage in combat at all even though we've been told that the majority (or possibly plurality, given how the word "majority" is abused in colloquial English) of players play in Open?
 
NPCs, as part of the game, would know exactly where their target was at all times and are not subject to trivial limitations like jump range, super-cruise speed, etc., i.e. they can be spawned at need by the game anywhere. That NPCs don't hunt players down likely speaks to how Frontier understands their player-base, e.g. a mission NPC only makes one attempt to interdict a player if the player wins the interdiction. Thargoids interdict more often though.
So how would they know where they were going? Did they have ships that were suited to attack? If these ships were damaged, did they magically repair themselves? The other aspect is that instanced NPCs are lacking context, trying to approximate player actions through abstraction. You hobble a pursuer they stay hobbled until fixed.

Powerplay is about hunting and disrupting, as well as you avoiding that disruption. If two modes don't have that aspect, is it 'the same'?

How many of those players are there expected to be, noting that we've been told that "a lot" of players don't engage in combat at all even though we've been told that the majority (or possibly plurality, given how the word "majority" is abused in colloquial English) of players play in Open?
Its is as I said, people looking at the various modes, what they offer and choosing the right one for them. Until you offer it, how would we know? And if it was offered, what slight is it on other modes other than the perceived ones by you?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
So how would they know where they were going?
They don't need to.
Did they have ships that were suited to attack?
They could have ships that players can only dream of.
If these ships were damaged, did they magically repair themselves?
It has been observed in the past that mission NPCs sometimes changed ships but kept the same name.
The other aspect is that instanced NPCs are lacking context, trying to approximate player actions through abstraction. You hobble a pursuer they stay hobbled until fixed.
They won't be players, that's for sure.
Powerplay is about hunting and disrupting, as well as you avoiding that disruption. If two modes don't have that aspect, is it 'the same'?
For some, certainly. I doubt that all players play it that way.
Its is as I said, people looking at the various modes, what they offer and choosing the right one for them. Until you offer it, how would we know? And if it was offered, what slight is it on other modes other than the perceived ones by you?
A bonus for players in one game mode is functionally identical to a penalty for those players in the other two game modes - that's not "perceived", it's "identified". If the bonus is low then it's unlikely to attract those who don't enjoy combat in general or PvP in particular. If the bonus is high then it will encourage some players to make liberal use of the block feature to turn the Open that they fly in into something more palatable.
 
They don't need to.
They could have ships that players can only dream of.
So the NPCs were FDLs with actually destructive loadouts, or just Eagles and Vipers?

It has been observed in the past that mission NPCs sometimes changed ships but kept the same name.
So if you went to the effort of damaging them, would they be consistent like players?

They won't be players, that's for sure.
So then the effort expended by those being chased was fair for players?

For some, certainly. I doubt that all players play it that way.
There is no other way of playing PP in open other than doing exactly that. You do your task and avoid being shot down when players and situations merge.

A bonus for players in one game mode is functionally identical to a penalty for those players in the other two game modes - that's not "perceived", it's "identified". If the bonus is low then it's unlikely to attract those who don't enjoy combat in general or PvP in particular. If the bonus is high then it will encourage some players to make liberal use of the block feature to turn the Open that they fly in into something more palatable.

So then penalties only go one way (i.e. Open)? Why is it Solo and PG get tangible benefits when they don't have the added complications of other players as well as NPCs (as useless as they are)?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
So the NPCs were FDLs with actually destructive loadouts, or just Eagles and Vipers?
It was not a reference to what was but what could possibly be.
So if you went to the effort of damaging them, would they be consistent like players?
No. NPCs tended to get repaired on system change (possibly just instance change).
So then the effort expended by those being chased was fair for players?
Who knows, they don't exist yet.
There is no other way of playing PP in open other than doing exactly that. You do your task and avoid being shot down when players and situations merge.
As already mentioned, in Open certainly. Noting that not all players play in Open.
So then penalties only go one way (i.e. Open)? Why is it Solo and PG get tangible benefits when they don't have the added complications of other players as well as NPCs (as useless as they are)?
Solo and Private Groups have no benefits that are not available in Open - other than fewer players - in a game where other players are an optional extra.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
No, in all modes- why do you think people want better NPCs too?
Which mixes what is with what might be.
If all modes offered NPCs that scaled properly along with PvE that made NPCs a threat, you'd not need this thread.
NPCs are, I expect, highly unlikely to offer the level of challenge that some want them to to participants in general - especially when the benchmark for risk seems to be risk free players in G5 murderboats.
 
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