Open Play experience just blows…

[Robert Maynard]

Which still has nothing to do with the point. Read up.

There's no behaviour filter applied to the ability to shoot at other players - although each player's ability to block CMDRs can be considered to be one. It does not stop the blocked CMDR from shooting at players, however it significantly reduces the possibility of the blocked CMDR being instanced with again, denying them the opportunity to do so.

 

[Northpin]

Anyone can just block you for any reason or no reason at all, even exploitatively.

Hehe, SPEAR complaining that gankers were blocking them while gankers complained about their potential victims blocking them,.. that always cracked me up

 

[Robert Maynard]

See, this is the part that you don't understand. If you have a long blocklist and someone else happens to enter your instance, that blocklist will affect them as well, regardless of their behavior. They don't know that it's happening, they are never asked for consent. Maybe they want to face the challenges that you want to remove from the game. Maybe they came to that place to fight gankers. But your blocklist won't let them. They did nothing to offend you, but you are ruining their game anyway.

The friends list also affects instancing - those seeking to instance with gankers can send friend invitations to those they'd like to instance with.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

See, this is the part that you don't understand. If you have a long blocklist and someone else happens to enter your instance, that blocklist will affect them as well, regardless of their behavior. They don't know that it's happening, they are never asked for consent. Maybe they want to face the challenges that you want to remove from the game. Maybe they came to that place to fight gankers. But your blocklist won't let them. They did nothing to offend you, but you are ruining their game anyway.

Then there is PG for them. Players who want to do PvP can meet up in PGs. I had the impression that PGs were exactly implemented for that. So open is left to the coop focused cmdrs as were intended by FDev. See, simple solution.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

See, this is the part that you don't understand. If you have a long blocklist and someone else happens to enter your instance, that blocklist will affect them as well, regardless of their behavior. They don't know that it's happening, they are never asked for consent. Maybe they want to face the challenges that you want to remove from the game. Maybe they came to that place to fight gankers. But your blocklist won't let them. They did nothing to offend you, but you are ruining their game anyway.

you are right.... it isnt fair. There are loads of features which are either not in the game, or have been compromised significantly due to FDs attempt to sell to all types of gamers.

I dont have an answer other than to get used to it and poke FD to give you the tools you need, just like PvE players have had to accept all the stuff we they have had to compromise on, just like solo players have done equally. Yes we moan to FD and sometimes that boils over to the players...... but blaming the players is wrong - unless they are cheaters... (and i have been guilty of it from time to time too)

you make it sound like it is some anti pvp conspiracy where PvE players are getting everything they want, but i promise you, at least from my commanders chair......... that absolutely isnt the truth.

and the reason a lot of features are not in the game (as even David Braben admitted) - because if they were a small subset of the players would destroy it and make it unworkable.
So please dont think it is only your play style which has been some what curtailed.

but blaming the players using the tools which FD created specifically to try to support certain players in their compromises is not the answer. PvE players are just making lemonade from the lemons they have, like we were told to do... and i agree..... its not ideal.

oh and just to reiterate again.... my block list is empty, but i support the players who do use it.

 

[Sakashiro]

One way to excise players who block from ones game is to play in a Private Group

OK, given my previous example, let's say I go to a CG system to fight gankers, but the game puts me into an instance with you who has blocked all of them, how would a private group solve my problem?

 

[Robert Maynard]

OK, given my previous example, let's say I go to a CG system to fight gankers, but the game puts me into an instance with you who has blocked all of them, how would a private group solve my problem?

It would not - however it would guarantee (subject to how trustworthy the members of the Private Group were) that one was not playing among those who haver blocked other players.

.... and, for the avoidance of doubt, my block list is empty.

If one wants to fight gankers, one has to hope that those gankers have not blocked ones CMDR (as anecdotes suggest that some gankers block those who would attack them).

 

[Rat Catcher]

.... and, for the avoidance of doubt, my block list is empty.

Nice one!

 

[Brrokk]

See, this is the part that you don't understand. If you have a long blocklist and someone else happens to enter your instance, that blocklist will affect them as well, regardless of their behavior. They don't know that it's happening, they are never asked for consent. Maybe they want to face the challenges that you want to remove from the game. Maybe they came to that place to fight gankers. But your blocklist won't let them. They did nothing to offend you, but you are ruining their game anyway.

Then there is PG for them. Players who want to do PvP can meet up in PGs. I had the impression that PGs were exactly implemented for that. So open is left to the coop focused cmdrs as were intended by FDev. See, simple solution.

Yes and no. This block thing isn't ideal, but it's what we have. FD chose to give individual players control over who they meet rather than make another mode which would let them specify what interactions they have with people they meet. And instancing is such that in this game I always try to be in a PG with people I know I want to meet up with.

As for the "block nasty people" or "don't be nasty and get blocked" dilemma, all I can say is that when playing any multi-player game, I acknowledge a responsibility to help the people I meet have a good game experience. To me, that's just basic politeness and also fundamental to playing a game. I would see no need to ever block anyone if others would take the same view. My experience is that the vast majority of players are good to meet; it's only a few that need to be weeded out to greatly improve the game. Nothing like "mass blocking" is needed.

Yes, my blocklist might theoretically affect others' instancing. I doubt that the effect is really at a significant level in practice. But I didn't make this game; it's what FD have chosen to provide. One can imagine a central-server Open-only Fortnite-in-space game without any block feature. Some would possibly like it; I definitely wouldn't play it. The history of games shows that such arenas aren't usually popular enough to keep running for long.

 

[ethelred]

@Robert Maynard quite the Gish gallop this morning.

Save game reversion in game difficulty is absolutely a challenge in MP Vs a SP experience. How, in your opinion, does ED handle this, and what is the implication on game difficulty?

 

[Robert Maynard]

@Robert Maynard quite the Gish gallop this morning.

Save game reversion in game difficulty is absolutely a challenge in MP Vs a SP experience. How, in your opinion, does ED handle this, and what is the implication on game difficulty?

Save game reversion was notable in it's omission up to the point I raised it.

I suspect that the lack of save game, the different roles that players can adopt in this version of the game, and the ability of players to adversely affect other players has resulted in a game that has a lower underlying difficulty level with optional content that is more challenging than it would have had had it been another single player game in the series.

 

[galahad2069]

There's no behaviour filter applied to the ability to shoot at other players - although each player's ability to block CMDRs can be considered to be one. It does not stop the blocked CMDR from shooting at players, however it significantly reduces the possibility of the blocked CMDR being instanced with again, denying them the opportunity to do so.

OK, I never imagined that I was going to need to spell such a simple concept out multiple times, but this forum never stops giving it seems.

There was a simple statement here:

Counter mass blocking is easy done, even far more easier then to counter gankers. You just have to behave yourself.

I just pointed out that

That's just blatantly false.

which is very easy to see using nothing else but basic logic.

The reason why it's false (can you still follow?) is that people can just block you for literally any arbitrary reason, not only because of how you "behave".
For example, they can just block you accidentally ("what does this button do?" or "oops misclicked").
They can block you because they mistake you for someone else (for example they can misspell a name they could see on an out-of-game list of Very Dangerous Toxic Psychopath Gankerz).
They can even exploit blocking with malicious intent (in order to disrupt wings or make legit opponents harder or even impossible to find a specific instance, for example).

In none of the above cases can your behaviour counter any kind of blocking, which means the original statement is false. Q.E.D.

Note that the first part of the statement ("counter mass blocking is easy done") is (kind of) true, in itself. You only need to use an alt account. But that's beside the point.
Also it is true that players can shoot at you for any reason, but that's just irrelevant too.

 

[Northpin]

.... and, for the avoidance of doubt, my block list is empty.

Same as mine - even tho i'm a big fan / supporter of the block feature.

And, at most, my block list had 3 people in it (temporarily) and for a very mundane reason.
The dudes were literally spamming the chat with crap, while i was trying to advertise my carrier selling CG goods
So i blocked them and reported them using the ingame tools. But after the CG was over, i emptied my block list.

 

[Morbad]

Well FD made wing missions, which can be soloed today. Who were these missions made for now?

It's kinda neat to watch NPC crew do them with no more assistance than target designation:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIyxdgsJWSY


If what is the presumably the same AI can use CMDR gear to steamroll some of the the most difficult (human) AI encounters with trivial difficulty, it should be no surprise that direct CMDR vs. AI matchups are even more lopsided.

The friends list also affects instancing - those seeking to instance with gankers can send friend invitations to those they'd like to instance with.

Unless they changed it recently, friends listing cannot override blockings, no matter how many friends are in the instance. Not even wings (of friends) could do that last I checked.

Wing of four encounters a malicious blocker, whom they don't know is a blocker because they're not advertising this fact, at a Haz RES with great spawns. One goes back to rearm/repair, blocker (who is apparently minding their own business mining or also fighting NPCs) blocks the one that just left. Five minutes later that individual finds it impossible to rejoin their wing; they drop in to an instance that is either empty, or doesn't contain the same CMDRs as before. Now their wing has to stop doing what they were doing and enter that other instance, which may be more crowded, or have inferior spawns...and a fast troll could always beat them to the punch, unblocking and relogging themselves, possibly getting in the new instance in time to block one of the other CMDRs they saw in the group they didn't like. They may not even consider what they're doing to be underhanded as 'blocking is part of the game'.

I'm convinced I've seen such antics used against me (or someone I was playing with), and I've tested such permutations of block and wing, and one block is (or was) stronger than four mutual wing weights.

As we've both acknowledged in prior discussion, the overwhelming weight of block was probably implimented at some point to counter the perception that block wasn't doing anything. Back in the early game, maybe it was worth two or three friends...but when you have five wings of mutually hostile CMDRs who are playing cops and robbers and murderhoboes at a CG and they are ALL friended with eachother, is easy to see how a weak or modest block weight could easily be overwhelmed...so, instead of actually tackling any issues, they just turned that dial up to 11, and block became an instance wide wing-breaking exclusion aura.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The reason why it's false (can you still follow?) is that people can just block you for literally any arbitrary reason other than your behaviour.
For example, they can just block you accidentally ("what does this button do?" or "oops misclicked").
They can block you because they mistake you for someone else (for example they can misspell a name they could see on an out-of-game list of Very Dangerous Toxic Psychopath Gankerz).
They can even exploit blocking with malicious intent (in order to disrupt wings or make legit opponents harder or even impossible to find a specific instance, for example).

In none of the above cases can your behaviour counter any kind of blocking, which means the original statement is false. Q.E.D.

That players can possibly do these things is agreed - that it actually happens to a degree that verifiably affects some players' gameplay remains open for debate.

Note that the first part of the statement ("counter mass blocking is easy done") is (kind of) true, in itself. You only need to use an alt account. But that's beside the point.

Which, if proven, could potentially put the player avoiding the block in a sticky situation regarding potential for harassment of the player who blocked them.

Also it is true that players can shoot at you for any reason, but that's just irrelevant too.

... and the block feature exists because players can't be trusted to behave as others want them to.

 

[galahad2069]

The behavior of a specific cmdr is reflected in his or her actions and, if existent, his or her reputation among the playerbase. That some players block randomly other players may occur, but i think this a rare exception. Should someone block other players to gain some kind of advantage (dont know... perhaps gankers block spear cmdrs or something like this?) it also seems to be not appropriate behavior from a in-game perspective. In either case this is a case-by-case analysis. What i wanted to point out: If you behave yourself in general, it seems unlikely that you get blocked by a signifikant amount of players or by someone who has a remarkable impact on your game that you would notice.

How likely or unlikely something is, you cannot really determine without statistical data. But these examples I was mentioning weren't just made up, these are actually happening.
Even the exploitative use. Give people something that can be used as a weapon and it will be used as a weapon.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Last one I blocked before recent blocklist wipe was mailslot troll. Should I just tolerate them?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Unless they changed it recently, friends listing cannot override blockings, no matter how many friends are in the instance. Not even wings (of friends) could do that last I checked.

Wing of four encounters a malicious blocker, whom they don't know is a blocker because they're not advertising this fact, at a Haz RES with great spawns. One goes back to rearm/repair, blocker (who is apparently minding their own business mining or also fighting NPCs) blocks the one that just left. Five minutes later that individual finds it impossible to rejoin their wing; they drop in to an instance that is either empty, or doesn't contain the same CMDRs as before. Now their wing has to stop doing what they were doing and enter that other instance, which may be more crowded, or have inferior spawns...and a fast troll could always beat them to the punch, unblocking and relogging themselves, possibly getting in the new instance in time to block one of the other CMDRs they saw in the group they didn't like. They may not even consider what they're doing to be underhanded as 'blocking is part of the game'.

I'm convinced I've seen such antics used against me (or someone I was playing with), and I've tested such permutations of block and wing, and one block is (or was) stronger than four mutual wing weights.

Yet I doubt that such possible uses would be sufficient to persuade Frontier to change the block feature, given its intended purpose and the fact that they implemented it from the outset as part of this multi-player game.

As we've both acknowledged in prior discussion, the overwhelming weight of block was probably implimented at some point to counter the perception that block wasn't doing anything. Back in the early game, maybe it was worth two or three friends...but when you have five wings of mutually hostile CMDRs who are playing cops and robbers and murderhoboes at a CG and they are ALL friended with eachother, is easy to see how a weak or modest block weight could easily be overwhelmed...so, instead of actually tackling any issues, they just turned that dial up to 11, and block became an instance wide wing-breaking exclusion aura.

I suspect that block's weighting in the matchmaking system has been increased, in part, due to the ingenuity of those who have worked out how to instance with those who have blocked them.

 

[vanFace]

Is mass blocking even possible? I mean, could I just keep on adding players to the list without a limit? And if so, and I theoretically put every other player on the list, would it guarantee that I don't instance with anyone in Open (sans new players, of course)?
I think at one point something might break in this system. Perhaps it would make sense to limit the block list (simultaneous) count to something like 10 or so?

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Combat ships are only fully optimised for combat in organized PvP. In organic there are other aspects as well, for example they usually need to be able to jump, carry interdictors and sometimes special, otherwise pretty useless weapons like groms.

I don't see CG campers doing much in the way of jumping.