Open play trolls

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

As I said, it comes with the territory.

Some people stream as their full time job, they take the risk of being stream sniped as part of the job description. As much as they may dislike it, I'm sure they don't really mind getting stream sniped as long as the donations and subscriptions are rolling in.

Ive never understood people that blow up and cry about it.

#1 People that are streaming, are there to make content. Why even broadcast yourself.

#2 Elite is so damn big, that when I dont stream. I never see anyone. But when I do stream, I get the interaction that was advertised.

Streaming for me has been awesome.

Then there are the other people that just shut down their CLUBHAUS and cry DMCA anything something happens to them. Instead of rolling with the punches and having fun is a video game.

 

[Hellakitty]

Look here:
http://bullyonline.org/index.php/bullying/bullies/21-the-need-for-attention

 

[NeilF]

Come join Mobius. It's gonna be the best decision you'll make in this game.

Don't even try to "git gud" because if you have a life, you'll never get even. Oh and don't post threads like these, because these gankers LOVE it when people moan on the forums. They're looking for attention. So don't give it to them. Join Mobius!

--> https://elitepve.com

I put off joining Mobius, and then at the Thargoid reveal community event, the sheer level of toxic ganking I witnessed, made me finally join up.

Up until that time I'd witness periodic ganking, but the sheer pointlessness and toxicity of what I saw at that event just made me realise that it wasn't worth feeding the trolls and encouraging and rewarding their antics by being in OPEN... I joined Mobius that day, and TBH, at any sort of exploration/community activity I would now do in Mobius simply so as not to be there (in OPEN) to reward these trolls...

For example, if I was going to the new Guardian bases, I'd do that in Mobius.

 

[Vorxian]

It's not even the trolls that I have a bout of issues with, it's the futility of it. Unarmed trade ship, thrown among the engineered splat machines, it's the loss and the imbalance of loss vs the activity that feeds the trolls. The trolls aren't truly the issue, they're just feeding off the issue.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I've actually done it before, it's about as common as carebear, coward and forumdad.



Yep, I keep telling people to shoot straight and mind their targets to avoid friendly fire bounties. Never goes down well, in fact the mods sometimes remove it. Yet if you actually do it it's (almost) infallible.



You expand and support your minor faction, that's the win. More available stations/missions/area's. I quite like it, always a variety of things to do.



Some people like PVP, so they do PVP. That doesn't mean people who enjoy playing the BGS should have to do it only via PVP.



Modes are working as intended (and as was always intended).



I don't know what GCI is.



I get the impression there's whole swathes of subtext and history here that's totally passing me by.

For what it's worth I wish you luck with steaming but watching other people play games isn't my thing, and I don't understand the in's and out's of it.



That's what the modes are for matey, other people in the game are optional that's the whole point of them.

So first, lets address you calling someone a psychopath and everything and getting away with it. But if I were to call someone a forum dad. OR MAKE A VIDEO calling someone a forum dad. It gets locked, and reported so many times I lost count.

but its perfectly fine for you to call people names on the forums as long as it applies to a PVPer after they killed someone in game.

Hmmm, something IS A FOOT!

Next, GCI is the Galactic Combat Initative discord. They teach people that WANT to learn how to fight/defend themselves. They hold weekly meet ups at CGS and hold Events. Same with San TU, Except SAN TU more for legit competition and I believe they are working on a MMR Ladder system.

As far as the context with the subscriber. Ill tell you. He was one of the first subscribers I had. We did lots of stuff in this game. But every day he mentioned various PVP stuff and how its ruining the game.

I'd done everything else in the game but PVP, and I always got my butt whopped when I fought other players. So I thought hey lets go learn.

I joined GCI. Told him I did on stream. He freaked out because some SDC members were in there. And told me I was no longer morally recognizable.

Pretty straight forward. Then I spoke later on down the line with a few PVPers. Decent guys.

I had some great idea that I would come to the forums and give my input on the game. Maybe we could help change that outlook on PVP. Especially after I found out about BGS and powerplay. Then I found out the only acceptable PVP in the game is set up consensually and not made to fight over objectives.

They told me not to come here. But I did anyways.

I made the post and was directed to the Hotel Califonia thread. I was like What in the hell is that?

Turns out, EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER has made the obvious statements once they reached a certain point within the game.

To the streaming thing, man Ive met lots of awesome people in the Elite Dangerous community, and even more so in other games too. I get to help people, group up with people, fight people. Interact with people and just like this forum. Its a place to sit down with someone and talk. You guys should really check out https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Elite: Dangerous It needs some love.

By hanging out on Twitch you guys can help the game grow. There is an awesome community there. Follow some guys or girls. Talk with them. Its a lot more than watching someone play a game. I can promise you that.

Go follow someones adventure. Go give someone a hard time. Its fun. You may even make some friends or find an awesome player group to chill with.

 

[John Xenir]

With engineered god rolls, and how much time PvP-heavy crowd spends at squishing juice out of their PvP-lolboats, plus the added "balance" of some of the experimental effects, I find the "git gud" argument amusing. Doesn't take much to see through it.

Also, I would like to ask: if it's about "getting good", why are you not flying Cobras, kicking those Cutters right open with what could be considered inferior ship at first glance? Why are so many reported gankers in Condas/Cutters?
"Git gud", yeah right :*

 

[Toumal]

So first, lets address you calling someone a psychopath and everything and getting away with it. But if I were to call someone a forum dad. OR MAKE A VIDEO calling someone a forum dad. It gets locked, and reported so many times I lost count.

but its perfectly fine for you tall call people names on the forums as long as it applies to a PVPer after they killed someone in game.

You are mixing in-game and real life here.

A commander in the game who flies around and shoots up random people without any monetary gain, or any reputation gain, or any benefit to his/her faction, is effectively roleplaying a psychopath.
If someone picks up a gun, travels to the middle east, and starts shooting up random people regardless of religion, status, skin color or heritage, they're not fighting for a cause - they're a mass murdering psychopath.

You're making claims that there's some kind of code of honor going on, that PvP is so awesome that everyone should experience it and participate. Just don't fly without a shield and git gud and you'll be fine!
And yet.... we have Elite ranked players who like to hang out in LHS 3447 or other starter systems, clubbing sealwinders. Almost like they're not looking for opponents but for victims.

I'd say they are roleplaying as mass murdering psychopaths. And you guys should own that label with pride because, after all, it's called Elite Dangerous. And we all know that there's a difference between a game and real life.

I hope.

 

[Han_Zen]

It's not even the trolls that I have a bout of issues with, it's the futility of it. Unarmed trade ship, thrown among the engineered splat machines, it's the loss and the imbalance of loss vs the activity that feeds the trolls. The trolls aren't truly the issue, they're just feeding off the issue.

The issue is the game. No doubt about that. When players are gifted splat machines, they are going to use them. Some will even use them on other players.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

You are mixing in-game and real life here.

A commander in the game who flies around and shoots up random people without any monetary gain, or any reputation gain, or any benefit to his/her faction, is effectively roleplaying a psychopath.
If someone picks up a gun, travels to the middle east, and starts shooting up random people regardless of religion, status, skin color or heritage, they're not fighting for a cause - they're a mass murdering psychopath.

You're making claims that there's some kind of code of honor going on, that PvP is so awesome that everyone should experience it and participate. Just don't fly without a shield and git gud and you'll be fine!
And yet.... we have Elite ranked players who like to hang out in LHS 3447 or other starter systems, clubbing sealwinders. Almost like they're not looking for opponents but for victims.

I'd say they are roleplaying as mass murdering psychopaths. And you guys should own that label with pride because, after all, it's called Elite Dangerous. And we all know that there's a difference between a game and real life.

I hope.

Its not me thats mixing up IRL and the game here. Thats the person calling someone a psychopath. You get named dropped somewhere or someone else steps in and says some stuff. In a round circle of insults. But its only moderated on one side.

I mean its really not that big of a secret this forums and some of its mods dont care for PVP.

I also like the notoriety thing though. I will be playing a bad guy this year. I played the good guy last year. Im going to stack it as high as I can get. I want someone to come after me. I enjoy the threat of having a high rebuy. I like risk vs reward.

There does need to be some sort of protection for new players in the starting area. A lot of us PVPers dont really go for that stuff. And usually publicly shame the people that do it with dunk videos.

I like Zarek Null though. Hes the only one out there giving people an experience. He has a great character and hes seriously under-rated. I know hes in the starting area. But I for one wish I would have taken that interaction when I first started. Hes a pretty cool cat and I hope he sticks around. At least hes roleplaying.

 

[Crank Larson]

Seriously that's all you can say.
Most of us want to enjoy the game, you're probably a troll yourself.
The game is ruined by people and comments like that. 
It was the post on the trolling.

No, I could say a lot more. But I didn't need to in this case. You can believe what you like, that is your prerogative. It doesn't mean that what you believe is in any way correct, though.

I offered the dude a hug and got accused of being a troll.

It's the argument used when the poster doesn't actually have an argument. Though how it relates to hugs, I don't know. Apparently I'm a troll too, so you're in bad company.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

It's simple really.

That there's crazy people out there who overreact, and perhaps threaten doxxing you because of a streamsnipe, is both true and most definitely regrettable.

But the crucial point is that there are some people who don't believe that anything that happens in Elite justifies any sort of emotional reaction (frustration, irritation, anger...) no matter how minor. If after being ganked you do have any reaction other than "haha, that was fun", you are autistic, you are a sperg, you can't tell videogames form reality, and you'll be dunked on even more (because reactions are fun -- and sorry but that's called trolling, pure and simple. See the CLUBHOUSE reference above).

Nothing you can say will change the mind of these guys, who will always feel not only entitled to do what they want (it's called Elite Dangerous, it's Open accept the consequences...) but will also paint themselves as victims of those bad and slightly unhinged forumdads who complain about them.

 

[AzraelDirge]

You are mixing in-game and real life here.

A commander in the game who flies around and shoots up random people without any monetary gain, or any reputation gain, or any benefit to his/her faction, is effectively roleplaying a psychopath.
If someone picks up a gun, travels to the middle east, and starts shooting up random people regardless of religion, status, skin color or heritage, they're not fighting for a cause - they're a mass murdering psychopath.

You're making claims that there's some kind of code of honor going on, that PvP is so awesome that everyone should experience it and participate. Just don't fly without a shield and git gud and you'll be fine!
And yet.... we have Elite ranked players who like to hang out in LHS 3447 or other starter systems, clubbing sealwinders. Almost like they're not looking for opponents but for victims.

I'd say they are roleplaying as mass murdering psychopaths. And you guys should own that label with pride because, after all, it's called Elite Dangerous. And we all know that there's a difference between a game and real life.

I hope.

See, the issue with your assertion is, I don't have to RP anything. I can simply be playing a video game, and think hunting other players is fun. I don't demand RP and immersion, I just want to fly my space ship and get in fights alongside my friends in a game. PvE was boring and predictable, so now I hunt players for more fun and challenge. If you feel the need to fit me into your RP, that's your issue, not mine or FDev's.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

It's simple really.

That there's crazy people out there who overreact, and perhaps threaten doxxing you because of a streamsnipe, is both true and most definitely regrettable.

But the crucial point is that there are some people who don't believe that anything that happens in Elite justifies any sort of emotional reaction (frustration, irritation, anger...) no matter how minor. If after being ganked you do have any reaction other than "haha, that was fun", you are autistic, you are a sperg, you can't tell videogames form reality, and you'll be dunked on even more (because reactions are fun -- and sorry but that's called trolling, pure and simple. See the CLUBHOUSE reference above).

Nothing you can say will change the mind of these guys, who will always feel not only entitled to do what they want (it's called Elite Dangerous, it's Open accept the consequences...) but will also paint themselves as victims of those bad and slightly unhinged forumdads who complain about them.

Nope, my point was there are different ways to handle yourself in a public environment. Some streamers are rage streamers they get a lot of money in doing so. But they know what they are doing. And use a character for their public streams. See Dr. Disrespect, KaceyTron, and more.

When I killed DJTruthsayer. He had a helluva reaction. One I cant even post here. It took a little bit for him to calm down. It was a badguy move on my part and was just giving him a hard time. And it wasnt a stream snipe either I was heading that day to get META alloy because we were UA bombed he happened to be there because it was a new thargoid planetary base.

I killed DJ and he was not happy wewlad.

Go youtube search The DJTRUTHSAYER GANK. He called me every name in the book lol.

But hes still a buddy of mine. And one day he'll get his revenge(at least I hope he does).

Its all a matter of how you handle yourself. And some people arent cut out for it.

People try to push my buttons all the time.

And every time they do. They learn they cant escape games. And the fact of the matter is this. No one can. Not even me.

There is a difference in over reacting in the moment like DJ did. And then doing some other things like other streamers have done in various game with IRL threats and stuff.

 

[Unshackled AI]

With engineered god rolls, and how much time PvP-heavy crowd spends at squishing juice out of their PvP-lolboats, plus the added "balance" of some of the experimental effects, I find the "git gud" argument amusing. Doesn't take much to see through it.

Also, I would like to ask: if it's about "getting good", why are you not flying Cobras, kicking those Cutters right open with what could be considered inferior ship at first glance? Why are so many reported gankers in Condas/Cutters?
"Git gud", yeah right :*

Alot of the gankers are cowards, (DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that everyone is, just in my experience, a big part).

I'm basing this purely anecdotal evidence on that 9/10 times I have attacked gankers, big 3 ships, they have combat logged on me. And I've only used a Diamondback Scout on them! It seems to me that they just want to feel big, so as soon as they get some competition they take the cowards way out. It's quite sad really.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

Nope, my point was there are different ways to handle yourself in a public Nonviolent. Some streamers are rage streamers they get a lot of money in doing so. But they know what they are doing. And use a character for their public streams. See Dr. Disrespect, KaceyTron, and more.

When I killed DJTruthsayer. He had a helluva reaction. One I cant even post here. It took a little bit for him to calm down. It was a badguy move on my part and was just giving him a hard time. And it wasnt a stream snipe either I was heading that day to get META alloy because we were UA bombed he happened to be there because it was a new thargoid planetary base.

I killed DJ and he was not happy wewlad.

Go youtube search The DJTRUTHSAYER GANK. He called me every name in the book lol.

But hes still a buddy of mine. And one day he'll get his revenge(at least I hope he does).

Its all a matter of how you handle yourself. And some people arent cut out for it.

People try to push my buttons all the time.

And every time they do. They learn they cant escape games. And the fact of the matter is this. No one can. Not even me.

There is a difference in over reacting in the moment like DJ did. And then doing some other things like other streamers have done in various game with IRL threats and stuff.

Well, I agree with everythng you say here - but how is it a response to me? I opened by saying that YES, some people DO overreact (perhaps this overreaction can be somewhat justified, perhaps it cannot, ever).

But then I also observed how certain people not only enjoy the overreaction, but take that as a good reason to poke the person even more. I don't believe you can deny with a straight face that this happens fairly regularly (I don't wanna name names here). Perhaps you didn't do that in DJ's case, fine. But many others do. And what other name is there for it if not trolling?

A few PvE people, therefore, are at least justified in believing that all that PvP people are interested in doing is trolling, because in fact it happens pretty often, or at least it's the most visible part of what they do (since there's very likely gonna be a full video coverage of the episode).

If all that PvPers did was compete amongst themselves and arrange fights in San Tu, there would be no thread like this on the forum, ever.

 

[Sylveria]

It's not even the trolls that I have a bout of issues with, it's the futility of it. Unarmed trade ship, thrown among the engineered splat machines, it's the loss and the imbalance of loss vs the activity that feeds the trolls. The trolls aren't truly the issue, they're just feeding off the issue.

This is actually much closer to the truth than most realize.

ED was introduced without a proper flagging feature- and in so doing, it's just "asking" for these types of situations... but there's no "purpose" whatsoever to splatting an unarmed trader in Open... other than "unsolicited" advice. Here's a hint- if they cared what you had to "teach" to begin with they would have equipped shields. Then again there's the KOS docking computer nonsense and other things people use to justify being a reprehensible person, too. It's no excuse.

PvE-centric players are also not the reason for the hate. If the problem is with FD and not providing a meaningful "context" for PvP in ED, people need to stop focusing on PvE players as the target of their hatred... because it only complicates the issue, it doesn't get any closer to resolving it. I have no issue with PvP-centric players, what I have issue with personally are the players who think they're "God's gift to gaming" because they're "spreading the gospel of PvP" by exploding people who don't want their advice and then claiming in their self-righteousness that they're some sort of heroes to the gaming world because of it.

If the game had included a non-restrictive Open PvE feature (you know as PG's have a player limit, and no controls for restricting PvP/PvE play) then they'd have a point... but when you have self-described "PvP players" going into Mobius to stir the nest out of boredom or whatever else, it doesn't help the case for PvP at all, either. As I've also said before- I'll help get people's backs for advocating for decent PvP but I'm not going to stand for things like being rude to or targeting PvE players because some are frustrated over FD not responding to them.

Moral of the Story- Don't be a socially reprehensible person (AKA a d**k, Richard Head), and you won't be treated like one.

 

[jasonbarron]

Its not me thats mixing up IRL and the game here. Thats the person calling someone a psychopath. You get named dropped somewhere or someone else steps in and says some stuff. In a round circle of insults. But its only moderated on one side.

I mean its really not that big of a secret this forums and some of its mods dont care for PVP.

I also like the notoriety thing though. I will be playing a bad guy this year. I played the good guy last year. Im going to stack it as high as I can get. I want someone to come after me. I enjoy the threat of having a high rebuy. I like risk vs reward.

There does need to be some sort of protection for new players in the starting area. A lot of us PVPers dont really go for that stuff. And usually publicly shame the people that do it with dunk videos.

I like Zarek Null though. Hes the only one out there giving people an experience. He has a great character and hes seriously under-rated. I know hes in the starting area. But I for one wish I would have taken that interaction when I first started. Hes a pretty cool cat and I hope he sticks around. At least hes roleplaying.

Big agree on Zarek. I really hope he sticks around as he's one of my favorite players.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Well, I agree with everythng you say here - but how is it a response to me? I opened by saying that YES, some people DO overreact (perhaps this overreaction can be somewhat justified, perhaps it cannot, ever).

But then I also observed how certain people not only enjoy the overreaction, but take that as a good reason to poke the person even more. I don't believe you can deny with a straight face that this happens fairly regularly (I don't wanna name names here). Perhaps you didn't do that in DJ's case, fine. But many others do. And what other name is there for it if not trolling?

A few PvE people, therefore, are at least justified in believing that all that PvP people are interested in doing is trolling, because in fact it happens pretty often, or at least it's the most visible part of what they do (since there's very likely gonna be a full video coverage of the episode).

If all that PvPers did was compete amongst themselves and arrange fights in San Tu, there would be no thread like this on the forum, ever.

Well, its kinda like you get a reaction the first time. Then random people see it and come and do it again, and again. Its all about how both parties handle it.

Its content being made. Together.

Like Tony Curtis, man a lot of people despise that guy. But some streamers that hes visited has some crazy reactions. Their name got out there because of it. And they grew their channel.

While other people out there handle the situation all wrong and completely screw themselves. The streamers are putting themselves out there, im pretty sure they know what they are getting into most of the time.

However, PVP in SanTu is awesome and Im glad the community put it together. But PVP like that isint really supposed to exist. When I bought the game, I was REALLY REALLY looking forward to power-play. But it just becomes a min max in solo and private just to keep up you never see anyone. Because its not efficient to be out there in open.

The reason all these threads happen, is because PVP has no definition. Given OPs account here there was that DBX lol. But man that thing is small. And people always have the option of solo and private to get around this stuff. Its funny when those things happen.

Op's post is really no different than any other interaction thats not a sanctioned PVP match. They all end up the same.

And thats "I got blown up for no reason". We really need a reason for that interaction Its never going to stop.

The problem is some guys do troll sometimes. I am one of them. But im not a bad guy and neither are they. Maybe in the game.

Lets take the UA bomber that hit doves enigma. That was basic gameplay mechanics, and everyone called him a troll. But at the same time, that event got more traction than it did before because of it. People banded together for a cause. And that was cool to see. Im referencing myself alot here because of my experiences, but SDC ganked the guardian ruins back in the day when they were released, and people lost their mind!

I got a group of guys together to fight the bad guys, there was like 5 of us. Where the hell was everyone else? On the forums complaining. Ugh so strange sometimes.

So yeah, I was responding to you because it really is how you handle yourself as a streamer. If you show you are vulnerable in dying in a video game. People are going to do it over and over and over. Because of the stupid reactions that arise. Had some people handled it differently. People would have moved on. And it would be forgotten about in a week.

Big agree on Zarek. I really hope he sticks around as he's one of my favorite players.

Sounds like something Zarek himself would say. Is that you behind the voice changer

 

[Stigbob]

So first, lets address you calling someone a psychopath and everything and getting away with it. But if I were to call someone a forum dad. OR MAKE A VIDEO calling someone a forum dad. It gets locked, and reported so many times I lost count.

I don't think I've ever called anyone here a psychopath. If you are sulking about your troll video thread getting locked, that was probably because it was a blatant trolling and you named a load of the moderators.

I thought it was funny, I think I even gave you rep for it.

but its perfectly fine for you to call people names on the forums as long as it applies to a PVPer after they killed someone in game.

I don't call people names, I tell people they've lost the argument when they start doing that.

Hmmm, something IS A FOOT!

Definitely but I think you may have latched onto the wrong poster for it.

Next, GCI is the Galactic Combat Initative discord. They teach people that WANT to learn how to fight/defend themselves. They hold weekly meet ups at CGS and hold Events. Same with San TU, Except SAN TU more for legit competition and I believe they are working on a MMR Ladder system.

That sounds like a good idea, I've been meaning to try the PVP hub. People organizing and enjoying PVP the same way the minor faction I'm in organize the BGS can only be a good thing.

As far as the context with the subscriber. Ill tell you. He was one of the first subscribers I had. We did lots of stuff in this game. But every day he mentioned various PVP stuff and how its ruining the game.

He should play solo or group.

I'd done everything else in the game but PVP, and I always got my butt whopped when I fought other players. So I thought hey lets go learn.

Makes sense.

I joined GCI. Told him I did on stream. He freaked out because some SDC members were in there. And told me I was no longer morally recognizable.

SDC deliberately try to cultivate a bad reputation, it's practically all they do. Some people fall for it instead of just giggling at them, but that's on SDC.

Pretty straight forward. Then I spoke later on down the line with a few PVPers. Decent guys.

Yep nothing wrong with PVP'ers.

I had some great idea that I would come to the forums and give my input on the game. Maybe we could help change that outlook on PVP. Especially after I found out about BGS and powerplay. Then I found out the only acceptable PVP in the game is set up consensually and not made to fight over objectives.

Any PVP is acceptable in open, people just have various levels of personal tolerance for it and options for exercising those preferences. I don't mind gankers, occasionally hunt noob-killers and block all station rammers for example.

They told me not to come here. But I did anyways.

The whole anti-PVP conspiracy isn't real.

I made the post and was directed to the Hotel Califonia thread. I was like What in the hell is that?

It's a dumping ground.

The problem was (and still is to an extent) that any thread that could be loosely interpreted as relating to the modes of the game was hijacked and filled up by players furious that the game had choice in it through not researching before they bought it.

It always went the same way and always involved name calling coward/carebear/psycho) usually by the pro-PVP posters who were often subsequently banned due to the name calling and spending all their time going offtopic in as many threads as they could find. The pro PVE players can simply refer to early design decisions and advertised features to back up their stance and most importantly don't care. No emotional baggage and easy verifiable FDEV sources means they rarely resort to name calling have been banned less.

So any hi-jacked threads got dumped or locked, as it was happening in half the threads posted in dangerous discussion. Whilst most players simply couldn't care less about PVP, much less the modes impact on it.

Turns out, EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER has made the obvious statements once they reached a certain point within the game.

Not really, I'm late game content myself played since 2014 and think the modes are an inspired idea.

To the streaming thing, man Ive met lots of awesome people in the Elite Dangerous community, and even more so in other games too. I get to help people, group up with people, fight people. Interact with people and just like this forum. Its a place to sit down with someone and talk. You guys should really check out https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Elite: Dangerous It needs some love.

By hanging out on Twitch you guys can help the game grow. There is an awesome community there. Follow some guys or girls. Talk with them. Its a lot more than watching someone play a game. I can promise you that.

Go follow someones adventure. Go give someone a hard time. Its fun. You may even make some friends or find an awesome player group to chill with.

Not really my thing.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

90s Kid, I appreciate your moderate response, thanks. We still disagree on some fundamental assumptions (the fact that the blame is always on the target, and that targets should simply learn to suck it up and all would be peachy) but let's try to close on a positive note: this I completely agree with

However, PVP in SanTu is awesome and Im glad the community put it together. But PVP like that isint really supposed to exist. When I bought the game, I was REALLY REALLY looking forward to power-play. But it just becomes a min max in solo and private just to keep up you never see anyone. Because its not efficient to be out there in open.

The reason all these threads happen, is because PVP has no definition

We as gamers are responsible for what we do in-game, but Frontier is responsible what what we can or cannot do. And I do realise that, to a certain degree, the PvP-PvE conflict is caused (or at least made much worse) by the limited options afforded by the game itself, as well as some design flaws (PP in Solo).