Open PvE

[SiriusSeven]

You'd think so, but it really isn't. Griefers hate PvP as much as PvE players do. They don't want heavily armed and skilled players around because those tend to pop their ships. They want to be left alone with their favorite prey, the inexperienced PvE players. And that's exactly what you would give them, sans the option groups like Mobius have, namely to ban them from the group. It would be a magnet for griefers. Going on a safari to carebear land? No "game keepers" to worry about? Perfect.

What you want is for groups like Mobius to get more administrative options. Self-administration is the only way to keep a game clean of players who don't fit it.

I could live with better admin tools for groups, as long as there are group discovery mechanisms that advertise the options to the 460,000 players (assuming 500k players total) not reading the forums.

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So to sum it up :

- Flag to set pve only
- Mechanics to remove pvp weapons damage under players flagged pve (outside of conflict zones)
- Possible look at the ramming mechanics (I personally think this would have to be dealt with via the reporting system the way combat logging currently is)

I'm pretty sure all players regardless of their stance on pvp could get behind this.

The only problem I can see with adding another mode/flag would be the impact on war like (Lugh style) community goals. I personally believe that's a different discussion to be had in a different thread as that tends to sway more to the open vs solo debate.

Yup. I would rep you again if I could

 

[Meritz]

So to sum it up :

- Flag to set pve only
- Mechanics to remove pvp weapons damage under players flagged pve
- Possible look at the ramming mechanics (I personally think this would have to be dealt with via the reporting system the way combat logging currently is)

I'm pretty sure all players regardless of their stance on pvp could get behind this.

As long as we don't have to see PvE players in Open, or interact with them in an indirectly adversarial way (indeed, see the Lugh threads about it), I wouldn't care. I have pointed out major flaws with such a mode though and why it wouldn't work, or rather, would have the exact opposite effect for PvE players than intended (attracting griefers instead of preventing griefing).

 

[Stewart_]

Because they're dangerous? Not like you HAVE to go there. It's an option. Since Premium Beta I've been playing exclusively in Open and have been killed by players exactly zero times, and I do hang out in hotspots. Not doing silly stuff like taking a T7 to Lave, but again, PvP is easy to avoid in Open.

PvP in Open is a choice. Whether you make that choice by seeking a target or by being a really easy and attractive one, is up to the player.

Thank you for your anecdotal experiences, but that does not reflect the current game mechanics.

**PvP is not a choice** if in Open - you are still open to PVP.

If PVP were truly optional, this thread would not exist. People would be able to mark themselves PVE, and never be attacked by another CMDR no matter where they go. The fact that you can get
attacked in highly populated areas just goes to prove that "PVP is not optional" in Open. You could be 100,000 LY away from Sol and still be attacked.

The current game mechanics is "PVP is not optional in Open".

 

[Meritz]

I could live with better admin tools for groups, as long as there are group discovery mechanisms that advertise the options to the 460,000 players (assuming 500k players total) not reading the forums.

I'm sure a group browser would be easy to do. But keep in mind FD might not want to do it. Open play is the major selling point of this game. They want to keep it as populated as possible.

 

[andyraptor]

I really can't see why you need to start a thread to rock a boat that does not need to be rocked

3 modes... interchange as you fancy... simple


no change needed

 

[SiriusSeven]

That's why I like Mobius; it allows for plenty of interaction with other CMDRs (I often see loads of them when I play) and PvP combat in CZs. Sure it's not as 'dangerous' as Open Play, but it seems more like others are playing the game the same way I am, i.e. in a world where destroying another CMDR's ship isn't just a small fine and frequent destruction of one's own vessel means very little. Basically it just delivers (for me) a more consistent and believable universe. Of course some would find this as dull as dishwater; luckily we have choices .

Yes. As I said in the Op, and elsewhere, Mobius is great! Really fantastic. Until circumstances arise where Mobius the player is no longer logging in as much or at all... Then the group fails to grow and replenish itself. And dies. Then the poop hits the fan and we have to start over. (A daunting task since Mobius has spent something like 40 hours just hitting the accept to group button)

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I'm sure a group browser would be easy to do. But keep in mind FD might not want to do it. Open play is the major selling point of this game. They want to keep it as populated as possible.

Yes. FD aren't dumb. This is the reason I believe it hasn't already happened.

 

[Distance]

The only problem I see with mobius is it has a small players base and pve players would like to play with a larger amount of players without the risk of unwanted pvp.

By having an "official" mode/flag that is visible on the main menu more people can play the way they want to and the way they were promised since day one.

I believe it wouldn't harm open and would make it better in the regard that people playing there wouldn't be coming to the forums complaining they died when they were promised rare and meaningful pvp. The rest of us in open who enjoy the randomness and danger will carry on as normal.

The only downside to the pve mode/flag would be the new set of challenged for fd to effectively police and remove griefing. The upside is a lot of this would be gone from open so there would be less to police in that mode. You'd have less threads from traders in lave with no shields reporting players from killing them

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As long as we don't have to see PvE players in Open, or interact with them in an indirectly adversarial way (indeed, see the Lugh threads about it), I wouldn't care. I have pointed out major flaws with such a mode though and why it wouldn't work, or rather, would have the exact opposite effect for PvE players than intended (attracting griefers instead of preventing griefing).

As I mentioned before, you'd have to be insane to think putting a pve flag in the game and having those same players interacting with players who's flag is set to pvp would be a viable idea.

 

[Meritz]

Thank you for your anecdotal experiences, but that does not reflect the current game mechanics.

**PvP is not a choice** if in Open - you are still open to PVP.

If PVP were truly optional, this thread would not exist. People would be able to mark themselves PVE, and never be attacked by another CMDR.

I don't think you understand what "optional" means. You're thinking in terms of game menus (which are already covered with solo/group modes), I'm thinking in terms of gameplay choices (the stuff of Open play). You can choose not to PvP in Open. But you have to play that way. A trader who takes a slow hauler with no shields into a pirate infested system chooses to PvP. He might not like the outcome, but it was his choice.

Pirates are pretty passive in that regard. They rarely jump around blindly looking for non-combat ships to pillage, they figure out trading hotspots and hang around. It's like jumping into a tank full of hungry sharks. Sure... you might not want to be eaten, but you did choose to jump in there.

And that's options.

 

[Distance]

I'm sure a group browser would be easy to do. But keep in mind FD might not want to do it. Open play is the major selling point of this game. They want to keep it as populated as possible.

I agree with you but with one caveat, people do quit through perceived griefing. If they tried open, got blown up but then had the option to play in a pve mode without that danger (some players don't know what they want until then face the angry end of a vulture) then ED would retain players as they'd be able to pve easily which means more revenue for FD in the long run through expansions, ship skins etc.

 

[SiriusSeven]

What is likely to keep people in the game after they get their Conda? Or even a Python, or ... however much grinding people can tolerate?

Friends. Connections. Being social. Helping others. Wings. Group Content. etc.

To make it easier for PvE players to connect is to keep a large portion of your player base interested. This is good news when it comes time to buy DLC.

 

[Meritz]

I agree with you but with one caveat, people do quit through perceived griefing. If they tried open, got blown up but then had the option to play in a pve mode without that danger (some players don't know what they want until then face the angry end of a vulture) then ED would retain players as they'd be able to pve easily which means more revenue for FD in the long run through expansions, ship skins etc.

Which is why they added solo/group modes in the first place. Keep in mind that if you allow the community to fragment too much, you also run the risk of killing it altogether. That's why I think they were smart to add solo/group modes, but will need to take measures to keep as many players as possible in a single mode - Open. It's a big galaxy out there and it can get lonely fast if you don't have a certain number of players in the same mode.

 

[andyraptor]

The only problem I see with mobius is it has a small players base and pve players would like to play with a larger amount of players without the risk of unwanted pvp.

By having an "official" mode/flag that is visible on the main menu more people can play the way they want to and the way they were promised since day one.

I believe it wouldn't harm open and would make it better in the regard that people playing there wouldn't be coming to the forums complaining they died when they were promised rare and meaningful pvp. The rest of us in open who enjoy the randomness and danger will carry on as normal.

The only downside to the pve mode/flag would be the new set of challenged for fd to effectively police and remove griefing. The upside is a lot of this would be gone from open so there would be less to police in that mode. You'd have less threads from traders in lave with no shields reporting players from killing them

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As I mentioned before, you'd have to be insane to think putting a pve flag in the game and having those same players interacting with players who's flag is set to pvp would be a viable idea.

with the instance size set at 32.... nothing you said will actually change anything

unless you actually take the time and trouble to add people to your friends list you'll rarely see other players ... mobius or not

heck ... with 5K plus membership ... less than 30 can communicate on VOIP on a regular basis

 

[Stewart_]

Firstly, Don't be so condescending - "I don't think you know what optional means". That is bordering on insult.

Yes I am thinking in terms of the game mechanics - as is perfectly obvious. Additionally, I know your talking about gameplay choices.

IMO, game play choices comes second when it comes to game mechanics.

The game mechanics for "Open" is that "PVP is not optional". When you play open you are a aware that PVP is a possibility. And always is a possibility in Open, but you can lower the possibility through being in a less populated area - my response to that is "big deal - that is a less than ideal situation".

This thread is about a PVE mode where PVP is not an option. The differences between a PVE Mode vs "Current" Open are pretty clear.

PVE players largely are not interested in PVP.

I don't think you understand what "optional" means. You're thinking in terms of game menus (which are already covered with solo/group modes), I'm thinking in terms of gameplay choices (the stuff of Open play). You can choose not to PvP in Open. But you have to play that way. A trader who takes a slow hauler with no shields into a pirate infested system chooses to PvP. He might not like the outcome, but it was his choice.

Pirates are pretty passive in that regard. They rarely jump around blindly looking for non-combat ships to pillage, they figure out trading hotspots and hang around. It's like jumping into a tank full of hungry sharks. Sure... you might not want to be eaten, but you did choose to jump in there.

And that's options.

 

[Meritz]

What is likely to keep people in the game after they get their Conda? Or even a Python, or ... however much grinding people can tolerate?

Friends. Connections. Being social. Helping others. Wings. Group Content. etc.

That's true, but the funny thing is, PvP players tend to be very social and quite loyal to their game (which remains to be seen as there are other problems they need to deal with before ED can boast to be a solid PvP game).

Personally I think the sandbox style of this game is pretty much the crown jewel, the one thing that makes it stand out from others. PvE in sandbox games often takes a back seat, because such games are conductive to player generated content, which itself calls for as much freedom in player-player interaction as possible. That means ever-present possibility of PvP.

I don't think many players primarily interested in PvE content will hang around after SC comes out. That game is a themepark take on the same thing as ED, which means much more content designed specifically for PvE players.

FD should instead focus on attracting the similar kind of audience EvE has. It has the capacity to fill one big gaping hole in EvE gameplay, and that's immersion and roleplay (especially with later expansions). Get a solid RP/PvP player base in here and you have an audience that will stick with this game until the heat death of the universe.

 

[Distance]

Which is why they added solo/group modes in the first place. Keep in mind that if you allow the community to fragment too much, you also run the risk of killing it altogether. That's why I think they were smart to add solo/group modes, but will need to take measures to keep as many players as possible in a single mode - Open. It's a big galaxy out there and it can get lonely fast if you don't have a certain number of players in the same mode.

The problem with the modes is the lack of hard info to new players about them. Your average player will buy the game, fire up open without knowing clicking open basically means "I'm willing to die at anytime at the whim of another player". I'm perfectly fine with that but a lot of people aren't and generally they find out about it the hard way.

Groups are great for a few friends to play without interruptions, like a private server on quake for some dm fun with your m8s. Solo is cool for people who don't want to see another living player ever. There's nothing to bridge the gap to allow play for players wanting to dip their toe in so to speak.

Also in the longer run there's nothing to stop a player starting in pve and then going to open in a few months once they've learned the gameplay and have more confidence and understanding of how the game works. ED is pretty damn brutal when you can technically have 3 months of play wiped out in an instant (how many "my anaconda blew up and I'm in a sidewinder" threads have we had recently?).

Giving players a safe environment to learn the skills they need for open mode in a safeish and cooperative based environment will be good for the game in the longterm. If players want to stay there permanently then that's fine too as fd have now retained a paying customer who are more likely to buy ship skins and expansions down the line.

I personally don't think it will dilute open much. FD have made the mistake of promising players all types of game play under the same roof. Pve and Pvp players have play styles that are pretty much anathema to each other and it's turned open in to 2 communities shouting about how their style of play is the one intended.

I'm an open player who's played for around 800 hours since beta. I want open to be the place to play but I realise it's not for everyone and Fd have taken money from players demanding a certain play style which is only available in small groups which goes against their promises.

 

[Meritz]

The game mechanics for "Open" is that "PVP is not optional". When you play open you are a aware that PVP is a possibility.

Which makes it an option. If it were mandatory, it would not be a possibility, it would be a certainty.

This thread is about a PVE mode where PVP is not an option. The differences between a PVE Mode vs "Current" Open are pretty clear.

And I have pointed out why such a mode is impossible to make unless PvE players are willing to accept stuff like being able to fly through each other's ships. In addition to other flaws and reasons why another mode would be counter-productive.

 

[SiriusSeven]

That's true, but the funny thing is, PvP players tend to be very social and quite loyal to their game (which remains to be seen as there are other problems they need to deal with before ED can boast to be a solid PvP game).

Personally I think the sandbox style of this game is pretty much the crown jewel, the one thing that makes it stand out from others. PvE in sandbox games often takes a back seat, because such games are conductive to player generated content, which itself calls for as much freedom in player-player interaction as possible. That means ever-present possibility of PvP.

I don't think many players primarily interested in PvE content will hang around after SC comes out. That game is a themepark take on the same thing as ED, which means much more content designed specifically for PvE players.

FD should instead focus on attracting the similar kind of audience EvE has. It has the capacity to fill one big gaping hole in EvE gameplay, and that's immersion and roleplay (especially with later expansions). Get a solid RP/PvP player base in here and you have an audience that will stick with this game until the heat death of the universe.

An interesting perspective, and I'm glad we found common ground in the value of social connections and loyalties.

I fear your mention of EvE will require additional Kevlar and flame retardant... But I also agree with your vision of a deep and meaningful sandbox.

 

[Meritz]

The problem with the modes is the lack of hard info to new players about them. Your average player will buy the game, fire up open without knowing clicking open basically means "I'm willing to die at anytime at the whim of another player". I'm perfectly fine with that but a lot of people aren't and generally they find out about it the hard way.

I believe an easy fix would be to have a tooltip added then.

The real problem may be that the game allows new players in without a tutorial session (those can be made opt-out). Existing tutorials are something most new players, eager to jump in the game, probably skip. Not to mention none of them teach you the important stuff, like insurance and why is it important.

 

[Stewart_]

Which makes it an option. If it were mandatory, it would not be a possibility, it would be a certainty.



And I have pointed out why such a mode is impossible to make unless PvE players are willing to accept stuff like being able to fly through each other's ships. In addition to other flaws and reasons why another mode would be counter-productive.

Two false statements in my opinion. Not going to discuss the first point more... its wasted time - we won't agree. Which fine, you have your opinion ( based upon player choice ) and I have mine based upon the Game Mechanics of Open.


Open PVE is absolutely a possibility:

- Open PVE would be a separate mode from current "Open"
- Match making to separate the two modes.
- No player to player damage
- If you hit another ship, you bounce off like current but take no damage. No fly through.

If fact, its 95% there with Grouping ( i.e., Mobius) - only that there is player damage.

 

[RGS]

@SiriusSeven

Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from in terms of 'what happens if Mobius (the player) loses interest/no longer has time etc.' I also agree that there are probably a load of people who would love playing in Mobius' group but simply don't know about it.