Opinion: Engineers is a side activity which rewards varied playing style

[sonichi813]

Some players want to min/max their gameplay and so it becomes mandatory. What's so hard to understand?

If they choose to min/max, should FD be responsible for crafting an experience that caters to them? You can choose to do anything you want but there are consequences to your actions.

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Again, it's not about the over-time thing. That part I would be fine with.

It's the fact that it pushes me into activities which I do not find enjoyable in order to make any progress at all.

But your expectation to have access to all the content the game has to offer, all the while restricting your playstyle to a few of the games available activities is fair? You choose what you want to do, if these choices limit you, than try something different.

 

[Vasious]

I agree, I like the way in happen chance as you go about your business & you end up checking your pinned blue prints from, time to time and see "2 attempts available" on one so head off and see what the Engineer produces for you, pin another blue print, then go back to smuggling guns, or mission running, for fighting for an Faction, prospecting, exploring or what ever one does, then another "x attempts" shows up and you think, Yeah lets try that.

You ship slowly shaped into a personality of its own, that makes it different from any other ship that just might have the same modules and weapons installed.

Makes your ship feel like the ships spoke about in the Novels, with unique and quirky tweaks from the standard model, customized for this pilot over their career.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Again, my problem isn't with the idea of "do this casually" (except that if you play in Open and you are a combat pilot, you can't, because others won't!), it's with the fact that my choices are "Do things I hate" or "Don't do engineers at all," and neither of those are viable options.

I understand, but is it really that different to other games.
I know Elite isn't supposed to be linear and you should be able to play your own way but is having to go mining once in a while to get that particular thing you need for that thing you want so bad really so terrible.
I think the real issue is that you might have to do it again because of RNG - that's the sucky part.

Most successful games, or at least the ones that I've enjoyed, have usually contained a variety of gameplay that you need to engage in at some point. At least with ED, you get to decide when to do it, or even whether to bother at all.

Different genre but Chocobo racing anyone?

 

[who?]

Lots of games have crafting mechanisms, and of those I've tried, few if any allow you to craft the optimal gear immediately. There almost always is some kind of level/rank gating, or game progress requirement, or crafting experience requirement (i.e. keep crafting to open up new crafting options) that limits what you can craft and when, thus the crafting process is something you keep coming back to over the course of the game, rather than being a short-term, once-off process.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect there between what FD are doing and what many of us (it seems) expect. I would guess FD see crafting as a career-long process where you'll often be going back to Engineers, and trying again, and levelling up. And using those modules for a while, then going back and improving them again. And hopefully new Engineers and new modules will be added too.

Many seem to expect that they should be able to get the optimal gear in the game pretty directly (and would prefer it to be deterministic too), which makes crafting very different. It's a short process you go through to maximise your ship; and once complete you're done with crafting until you buy a new ship.

That's probably partly due to the nature of the game. It's a 7-10 year game, and lots of people have been playing for up to 2 years, have Elite status, hundreds of millions of credits, several of the best and biggest ships, so we feel we should have access to the 'end game' items (insofar as such things exist) right now. FD are selling a process, but we just want the final goal.

 

[Archvillain]

Also, there's the simple fact that if you play in Open, once other combat pilots start min-maxing, if you don't do it as well, you are placing yourself at a disadvantage.

It seems to me that there has never been a level playing field though (a player that can afford an A-rated FDL was always at an advantage over a player who can afford a mid-grade viper, for example).

I'm not sure it's really a huge new difference between the advantage held by a player who has had the time to grind for the FDL (that money didn't come from PvPing), and the advantage held by a player who has had the time to grind for module mods (or the advantage of a player who has had the time for both!) Either way, with or without the Engineers expansion, players who have sunk more time into the game than you generally have some kind of an advantage over you, just as you generally have an advantage over people who have spent less time in the game.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

An interesting opinion I can relate too as I can see how the engineers could be designed to be played that way. I have a feeling that the best way to fully appreciate this would be from scratch starting out then as you pick up materials here and there you'll then have a good start once you reach the engineers. I want to test this but my secondary account doesn't have horizons :/.

I suspect part of the problem is that people who now have everything now only have the "grind" for materials to focus on.

I can confirm this. When I logged in after 2.1 I got all these invites to go see the Engineers. I got the things they wanted and went to visit them all. It was overwhelming. So much stuff to collect. I didn't know what to do. I liked the toughness of the improved AI, the market improvements and the updates to missions with there much clearer links to the BGS. I couldn't help thinking, that I wish it had been like this when I started playing six months ago.

So I took the plunge and reset my save. Early missions pay well (made 120k with my first two) and gaining rep with factions is so much more important. AI flies better but is fair at low levels, although interdictions a little over the top. The game tells me the Engineers are out there but I'm still some way from being able to do deal with them. I'm picking up materials all the time. Don't know what they are for at the moment but I'm sure they will come in useful later. The early game is so much better now.

Anyone starting the game for the first time is in for a treat. They won't have the baggage of how the game was before. They will learn to fly against AI that doesn't appear to be drunk and develop good skills form an early stage. The missions give the player a much better idea of how to complete them and spell out the risks involved. They can make credits at a reasonable rate and get upgrading the lovely little Sidey nice and quickly. There is load of strange stuff to find and interesting content to look forward to. Variety in your play style is encouraged and rewarded.

It really is a great time to be flying a Sidewinder.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Different mindsets I guess.

For me, actually making the different roles in the game actually have different rewards is quite refreshing.
Those roles are now meaningful beyond just credits/hr comparisons.
This is the one part of Engineers that holds up. They have different interests and specialities, they want different stuff.

The idea of going and doing those different things seems like grinding to some but to me it's a 'mission'.
It's the idea of doing Robigo a gazillion times, logging in and out to stack, that seems like the definition of grind to me and yet that's what people have done because it was the fastest way to get what they wanted.

Even though the gathering part is what it's all about, I'm not going to throw myself at the upgrades - the idea of finding the stuff for a specific blueprint and then getting a crappy roll doesn't do it for me.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I kinda see Engineers as a side project. I'm just doing my thing and sometimes I find good stuff, sometimes not and some ships tend to give better things than others. I just do what I do and pick up what I get and make a note. I'll take occasional runs to the Engies and see what I get and it won't be the be all and end all of everything.
It works perfectly fine for how I play the game as I mainly mess with the BGS so these upgrades are just like a distraction but I should mention, they are making me do things again that I stopped doing...like mining, USS and planetary things. I'm also switching ships a lot more which is cool.
However, for those who want the best stuff as quickly as they can then it'll become grindsville and that'll only be alleviated when youtubers and such start making lists on where to find these things...which is inevitable.

When discussions about Engineers began, when it was first hinted at, I had concerns about including weapons in the mix and I don't even think we've seen the worst of it either yet. The damage bug is just a precursor to when players actually work out the most OP setups.

I've always found it weird that players complain about "grind" and "lack of depth" yet when offered solutions, all they can do is grind and refuse to engage in the depth. Funny how that works.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned and I like games that make me think...oh well.

I blame humans, as always.


Time will tell though.

 

[halo jones 101]

Reading all kind of discussions, pleas, demands, threads about Engineers it feels like people still don't try to understand it, maybe even just because they are going trough emotions, trying to force it to become what it's not. It happens all the time, but it is very visible with Engineers.

So my opinion seeing how it all works is this - Engineers is side activity (not main one, it is clearly not an mandatory upgrade path) which rewards having varied play style or "life" in ED universe.

It is system designed as anti-thesis of "consuming content". It is not really a content per se, it is mechanism which together with assets adds new gameplay, and thus content. It trades clear min/max paths with variations of outcomes. You get bonus...but you don't know what kind of bonus you get, and grinding for it is quite taunting task. Probability gates are there to avoid players get specific upgrade (as I said, not a mandatory upgrade path), but get upgrade nevertheless.

Why I like it? It doesn't force me into mandatory upgrade mill, yet it can give me boost in interesting ways. I also love collecting materials (I love looting, FD has done it right) and it gives some context and ideas how and why to do it.

Why some people might not like it? Well, min/maxers will definitely not like it, as it is clear anti-thesis of calculated paths towards upgrades, they most likely will struggle to understand concept of this. Pure PvP fans will most likely avoid Engineer mods in combative dogfights as they want equal standing. "Griefers" will loath it and love it in same time, but with buffed NPCs I think they will have more issues on their hands. People locking themselves in specific roles will try to understand why they should bother.

I think main point is - you don't. None of ED systems added are mandatory (same as roles - they arent, so why Engineer mods should be). However, if you hit it right with one of them, you are in treat.

Absolutely spot on and exactly how I see all of Elite Dangerous, additional content, is to give me options to me to play this game how I like. I can understand that for some players they feel it doesn't but I tend to believe thus far there is a fair majority that are kinda happy with the path this game is taking...

 

[Red Anders]

I'll be honest - I'm severely annoyed that laser weapon upgrades are locked behind a wall of illegal activity. Dealing in illegal goods is not something my current commander would do--he is a very prinncipled individual--and so at least for now I have no way to improve my preferred weapons.

Such is the nature of principles. They're a fine thing to have but sometimes upholding them closes doors which would otherwise be open.

 

[Archvillain]

Such is the nature of principles. They're a fine thing to have but sometimes upholding them closes doors which would otherwise be open.

Yup. I flew all the way out to Robigo for smuggling missions. Once there I found out they were all slaver missions, so I flew all the way back, without any of the tens of millions of credits that were there for the taking [sad]

(Some might argue that a smuggler can't exactly claim much moral superiority over a slaver, but the lower you are, the more important it becomes to have someone to point at who you think is beneath you )

 

[metatheurgist]

No, it is not a side option because the Engineer Mods are overpowered. They are straight-up upgrades. Not getting them is deliberately disadvantaging yourself. It's like buying an MMO expansion with levels 60-80 and not levelling. If the engineer mods had been tweaks to make your ship slightly better at one job but slightly worse at another, then it'd be optional. But they're not.

 

[Spacecat]

I'm seriously debating whether I'm ever going to bother to upgrade anything. I might try a couple and see how it works out. The grindy nature for 2-5% per stage is pretty discouraging. Plus, once you upgrade your weapons and shields, now you have to upgrade your power plant and distributor to be able to use them, but now you've added weight, so you have to upgrade your engines, FSD, etc. Ugh. The mechanic is kind of silly. It's like a car customizing shop saying "I can build you a new exhaust system. Just ram into 100 or so cars and bring me all the parts that fall off and go mine some iron and platinum and I'll cobble one together for you.". Uh, thanks, I'll just buy one and bolt it on.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

This game is supposed to be a side activity aka hobby. But it has the same problem that EVE does, it commands you spend ALL of your time doing brainless tasks.

There are plenty of healthier hobbies that build real life experience and skills instead of wasting it on a game that only instigates annoyance and boredom.

 

[Spacecat]

No, it is not a side option because the Engineer Mods are overpowered. They are straight-up upgrades. Not getting them is deliberately disadvantaging yourself. It's like buying an MMO expansion with levels 60-80 and not levelling. If the engineer mods had been tweaks to make your ship slightly better at one job but slightly worse at another, then it'd be optional. But they're not.

And then once everybody grinds for months to max them all out, we'll all be right back where we started. It's like the guy that stands up to see better at a football game, then everybody else stands up and nobody can see any better than before.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

To answer "Why then make it main feature of update?" Well, that's how marketing works. If hey would advertise it as "well, yeah, there's lifelong sideactivity which can upgrade your stuff, but we don't advertise it that much because you would go full grind on thiem", then everyone would wonder why FD marketing is so tone deft.
Also yeah, there's clear disconnect between some players and FD which thought they are getting deterministic upgrades. As for players wanting to force feature to be one thing, and devs going another way - devs will win most of the time. Most. They are calling shots.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I concur, Pecisk. I'm playing the engineers as side-quests. My primary purpose in-game is to support my faction; if I get a bit bored or want a break from that, I go looking for mats for an upgrade, or take one of my ships out for an engine upgrade and the like. It's an entertaining distraction that adds focus to the existing content (of which there's actually too much, imo! There's just too much to do in this game!)

 

[K-Rose]

So after sleeping on it I'm seriously considering wiping my 18 months of play and starting fresh... Seems like the best way to enjoy this game that feels new since 2.1

My only worry is losing my Gunship (Rep for it) before fighters come out, also losing my courier that's been the ship I always go back to over the last year.

Has anyone ever regretted wiping their save?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Very much in line with OP's sentiments.

I have no idea what the engineers want from me, I've been checing out the new planet surfaces and SRV driving mechanic. Love gunning the little buggr over from orbit hand picked alien terrain. Got excited by POIs many thousand Lys away from the bubble. First time I was disappointed finding some rubble and a crashed SRV. But the crash site had some new materials. Also since they've upped the amount we can carry, I also have been stocking up on the other materials. Also I have become a one man rescue service with 12 escape pods in the hold, which I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy about returning them to their families.

You can release them can't you? I don't want to sell them as slaves.

In a couple of weeks when I return to the bubble I'll see about this engineer malarky. I think I've come prepared, but actually I have no idea whether I am. And not bothered either.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I do not agree with your assessment as the facts in the game don't support your thinking.

Horizons is a side game as all items required are permanent post death as you store them outside your ship (in the magic pockets on your suit )

Engineers requires, among other things, actual commodities that are either bought, scavenged from a planet or mined from asteroids. As some of these commodities are very rare and difficult to find, combined with the fact you have no storage capability, that means once you start down an upgrade path you're committed to it regardless. (You can't store commodities and transferring them to another ship requires you set up cargo space in advance prior to swapping ships)

That would not be my interpretation of a "side" activity.