Woah hold up, did you ever play war thunder?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Opinions on combat logging
- Thread starter mephisto9466
- Start date
Woah hold up, did you ever play war thunder?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Isn’t it more embarrasing to not be able to nuke a ship sitting completely still and defenseless for 15 seconds? No more shame in it than high waking, it’s the same timer.
Menu timer isn't against the rules and is a necessary evil, so I'm largely indifferent to it, though I think people deliberately abusing the functionality (logging off and on repeatedly in a vessel that cannot be destroyed in 15 seconds just to waste people's time in a CZ, for example) should be punished as should any exploiter. The timer confirmation should also be moved to the start of the countdown and the time extended.
Severing connection uncleanly to save one's vessel is a blatant cheat and could not be justified for any reason. This applies to CMDR opponents, NPC opponents, Open, Group, Solo, environmental hazards, and even avoiding bugs. Subjective fairness of the encounter is completely irrelevant. If your ship is, or would have been, destroyed via any means other than a legitimate bug, it's on you. If you lose a ship to a bug, file a support request and they'll correct it.
Frontier could absolutely do more to deter cheats, but I can and do blame the cheaters first and foremost. I don't expect people to play by the rules because the rules are unbreakable, but because they have explicitly or implicitly agreed to them, and games don't work without rules.
Severing connection uncleanly to save one's vessel is a blatant cheat and could not be justified for any reason. This applies to CMDR opponents, NPC opponents, Open, Group, Solo, environmental hazards, and even avoiding bugs. Subjective fairness of the encounter is completely irrelevant. If your ship is, or would have been, destroyed via any means other than a legitimate bug, it's on you. If you lose a ship to a bug, file a support request and they'll correct it.
Frontier could absolutely do more to deter cheats, but I can and do blame the cheaters first and foremost. I don't expect people to play by the rules because the rules are unbreakable, but because they have explicitly or implicitly agreed to them, and games don't work without rules.
the whole timer thing is irrelevant, it's just politics.
hear! hear!
that's going a bit too far. support can't give back exploration data afaik.
no. frontier has done absolutely nothing to address this, except trying to muddle the issue with the timer thing, going the moral/political route and then blatantly lying about monitoring it, which has been demonstrated. and yes, it is their full responsibility. games need to be robust. anything requiring human intervention is a weak link and a bad sign. when on top of that human intervention is lacking or even absent, then that's just a bad game and a bad developer in this particular regard, square and simple.
Last edited:
I don't agree. I have seen plenty of people abuse the timer to their CMDR's benefit, or to simply harm the gameplay of others.
Only the estimated value, not the actual data or the influence/rep that would be gained from selling it.
They should keep better track of what a CMDR does, so data can be restored in the future, among other uses.
I absolutely agree that cheating needs to be harder to do and get away with and that this is on Frontier. However, that does nothing to absolve cheaters of their actions.
i mean irrelevant as in it contributes nothing to solve the problem, just introduces more complexity at a higher level. it was frontier's attempt to get away with not solving the issue, by introducing a new and artificial problem on top of the real one. now we have discussions about when combat log is 'proper' or 'not proper', instead of asking frontier to cut the crap and fix this once and for all. well played ...
My opinion (all versus players, what you do against NPCs I frankly don't care)
- Task kill : no go, cheating, don't do that
- menu log under fire : no cheating, but I don't like it and won't do it
- menu log after successful evasion etc. : no cheating, ok
That's the way I play, and it annoys me if people log left and right in open, that's why I made a thread about it.
But on the other hand I won't gank or grief either.
- Task kill : no go, cheating, don't do that
- menu log under fire : no cheating, but I don't like it and won't do it
- menu log after successful evasion etc. : no cheating, ok
That's the way I play, and it annoys me if people log left and right in open, that's why I made a thread about it.
But on the other hand I won't gank or grief either.
Nothing wrong with menu logging but have the courtesy to wake out first if under fire. Real life is more important though so get rid of the countdown delay for the player, increasing the in game one is fine but allow instant confirmation.
Pulling the cable or task killing is lame, but not a big deal. It's an admission of defeat. People should be teased but not hassled out of the game for it.
......
Mode lock to open for 24 hours anyone who disconnects whilst being shot at (except by timer), people with real-life reasons for leaving or a network issue will want to be back in open so it doesn't effect them at all, and cloggers will be forced to offer themselves up as targets again or take a self imposed mini-ban.
Pulling the cable or task killing is lame, but not a big deal. It's an admission of defeat. People should be teased but not hassled out of the game for it.
......
Mode lock to open for 24 hours anyone who disconnects whilst being shot at (except by timer), people with real-life reasons for leaving or a network issue will want to be back in open so it doesn't effect them at all, and cloggers will be forced to offer themselves up as targets again or take a self imposed mini-ban.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Goddamnit. I was wondering about it when I read the Name. But then tought oh well come on. Its not the same Avatar and from Blue Exorcist to anything related to the Devil this Name is just to well known for that to be the same Guy.
Guess it was you after all xD
Didnt know you Played this ^^
Especially because the Combat and Flight Mechanics etc in this Game are so much Inferior to War Thunder
I always wonder why People do PvP in this Game anyways. When your used to Fly in WT this Game is a Joke xD
I find it hard to care about such an issue, however I have to follow the principal of the greater good so I do care.
No not about combat logging, but about proposals to prevent combat logging, if people think they have to combat log to enjoy the game the way they play then it's an issue with the game, not the player. Why should the player be punished because the game allows extremely asymmetric game play such that not flying a fully equipped and engineered combat ship is certain death when attacked? It in effect either forces everyone to play one way or take whatever actions are needed to escape certain death.
This is not a shallow approach, I have had discussions with PvP'ers before, we all have, there's a small group who think it's in their interest and also their right to force other players to remain and fight. One wanted to prevent high waking while in combat or make it subject to mass lock to prevent people escaping that way, in other words to force unarmed explorers with light shields fight against a combat engineered death machine.
After a few of these discussions I decided that some PvP'ers would never be satisfied until the position had swung so much in their favour that is was impossible for anyone to escape, thus forcing everyone in Open to engineer and equip as a warship, thus forcing everyone else to solo or groups. This is not the galaxy envisaged by FDEV, with traders and explorers, tourists and miners all mixing together in one galaxy. It's this vision of a realistic galaxy and society that drives a lot of the C&P changes.
So, I don't care if people combat log, but I do care that it's made necessary by a small group of players.
No not about combat logging, but about proposals to prevent combat logging, if people think they have to combat log to enjoy the game the way they play then it's an issue with the game, not the player. Why should the player be punished because the game allows extremely asymmetric game play such that not flying a fully equipped and engineered combat ship is certain death when attacked? It in effect either forces everyone to play one way or take whatever actions are needed to escape certain death.
This is not a shallow approach, I have had discussions with PvP'ers before, we all have, there's a small group who think it's in their interest and also their right to force other players to remain and fight. One wanted to prevent high waking while in combat or make it subject to mass lock to prevent people escaping that way, in other words to force unarmed explorers with light shields fight against a combat engineered death machine.
After a few of these discussions I decided that some PvP'ers would never be satisfied until the position had swung so much in their favour that is was impossible for anyone to escape, thus forcing everyone in Open to engineer and equip as a warship, thus forcing everyone else to solo or groups. This is not the galaxy envisaged by FDEV, with traders and explorers, tourists and miners all mixing together in one galaxy. It's this vision of a realistic galaxy and society that drives a lot of the C&P changes.
So, I don't care if people combat log, but I do care that it's made necessary by a small group of players.
My biggest gripe with combat logging is the avoided content (content in a good way).
I consider content a friendly chat about letting CMDRs know I am in the instance to keep them safe from gankers/griefers
(if only by letting myself getting killed as slow as possible
)I also consider content a good pirating effort, which is impossible when people log - which is annoying.
This is why I am a big big fan of making ganking/griefing as difficult as possible, it simply ruins a lot more playstyles imho.
As long as that problem is not addressed, making menu logs impossible/less useful will only make it worse.
I've been in quite a few extremely asymmetric encounters and never felt that I was being punished when my CMDR was attacked, or had his ship destroyed. My CMDR was punished for being reckless, but as a player, I was having a blast.
If someone does feel like it's a punishment, that's on them. Any attempt at a plausible setting would allow such asymmetric encounters. If they want a game where every combat encounter is balanced, then they should play a sports game or an arena shooter, not a space trade/combat game that at least claims to try to represent a credible setting beyond such arenas or pitched battles.
Note I'm not distinguishing between PvP and PvE here either, as (suprise, surprise!) there are actually asymmetric encounters one can get one's self into against NPCs as well:
Little do those NPCs know they are all about to die, but still, if I were in a less potent vessel and/or was a less experienced pilot, my CMDR could have been in just as much trouble as if a PvP gank fleet decided to pull me over.
If it were any easier on the defender, no combat ship would ever get shot down by anyone.
Example, I count seven hostile CMDRs vs. my lone self, in the slowest ship my CMDR owns, when I decided it was time to leave in this encounter: https://youtu.be/PI2wHp5azC4?t=400
I'm even safer as a trader or explorer, because I don't have any illusions that I can put up a fight, so have no incentive to stick around and see if I can bloody a few noses before I'm driven off.
In almost six-thousand hours of Open, I don't think I've ever lost a non-combat ship to enemy (NPC or CMDR) action (well, unless you count that time I took an armed trader conda with 400 tons of cargo and deliberately attacked a wing of three PvP FDLs, but I knew that was stupid and I shot first). Had a few close calls when I was new and dumb, but none since early 1.2.
I'm all for plausible C&P, but you cannot have a realistic galaxy or society if you attempt to exclude the real possibility of vastly asymmetrical encounters. Real, plausible, belligerents don't fight fair outside of sports...doing anything less than stacking the odds in your favor as heavily as possible is tantamount to playing Russian Roulette, if not outright suicide.
Anyway, it's fine to not like the rules. It's fine to advocate for changes to the rules. Still not fine to break the rules.
Simply put - games are better when people don't cheat.
Whilst I've never Combat Logged myself...not out of any particular passion for obeying EDs terms of use or because I feel any random murder hobo deserves to see an explosion at the end of an encounter...simply because if I'm in open I'll be with wingmates and a) Organised groups of Combat Ships co-ordinated and up on comms don't tend to be the target of random attacks and b) I would want to support my wingmates/not impact on their enjoyment...
I can't condemn anyone that does...If someone does it...I just think "Mission Kill", there's no benefit to me to finishing them off - them Clogging/Them Waking Out/Them being destroyed has exactly the same result...they've ceded the Battlespace...and they can come back as quickly from a rebuy (there being no consequence to loss in the game) as they can from a CLog and in the wider context...its just game innit...
It seems far less Toxic than some kiddie using NSFW language or pad Blocking or trying to Jam someone into the slot...
I can't condemn anyone that does...If someone does it...I just think "Mission Kill", there's no benefit to me to finishing them off - them Clogging/Them Waking Out/Them being destroyed has exactly the same result...they've ceded the Battlespace...and they can come back as quickly from a rebuy (there being no consequence to loss in the game) as they can from a CLog and in the wider context...its just game innit...
It seems far less Toxic than some kiddie using NSFW language or pad Blocking or trying to Jam someone into the slot...
Nice Post.
But if I get this Right your Argument is Basicly that Unfair Battles are Acceptable because the Game aims to be Realistic and in Reality Battles are usually not Fair.
And this Argument is Unfortunately really easy to Dismantle.
Because if we Allowed Unfair and thus Unfun Battles in Favour of Realism. We would need to adjust other things to Realism as well.
For example.
It is entirely Unplausible to Expect that Insurance Covers a Ship which was Lost due to being Shot down by Police Forces after being used in Criminal Activity like Murder.
It is entirely Unplausible for People to Risk their Ship and Life to Randomly Attack Targets that have no Value to them and Carry nothing that would even Remotely Cover their Ships Cost.
It is entirely Unplausible for Bountys to be like 50k when the Ship that the Criminal Destroyed had a Rebuy of 3 Million and Costs the Insurance 60 Million
It is entirely Unplausible Criminals to just pay off some Penaltys after being Shot down and then Leaving the Prison like nothing happened.
But thats how the Game works.
Because if you had to Rebuy the Ship completely after being Killed as a Criminal that would mean that anything beyond a Fighter cant be used for PvP because a Conda for Example if its Fully Equipped will easily Run over 500 Million and thats not even containing Engineers.
Thats how the Game works.
Because if you would Permanently Die when Shot down. PvP would become incredible Rare and only be done by Second Accounts with Cheap Ships that Hunt Newbes and just Reset after becoming a Criminal.
Thats how the Game works.
Because if you were Plausible you would have to Pay The Ship Price of every Victim. Of your Ship and of the Law Enforcement etc etc. So Just Killing 2 or 3 Guys that had a Python would mean that if you ever get Shot down and end on a Prison Station you would be Facing a Bill of a Bill of like 200-500 Million depending on your Ship and their Equipment etc etc.
Its how the Game works.
Because if you would end up in Prison for 20 Years for attempted Murder and thus had to Start a New Commander when you get Caught like that. It would be pretty harsh for a Game dont you think
Sorry. But seriously Dont Demand People to Face Plausible Scenarios that only happen to due an Unplausible Scenario.
You cant Seriously Expect others to Bear with something because its more Plausible that way. And at the same Time completely Ignore that the Game has entirely Unplausible Systems to Protect you from Consequences for such Actions.
True.
If People would not constantly abuse the weaknesses in the Game Mechanics to Cheat by Griefing and Ganking others. Open would actually be a Nice and Playable Mode.
Don't play open, so no need to Clog. however if I did & I knew I was being griefed or ganked then I would do just to p the muppets off! lol.
As my siggy shows, hate pewpew, don't do pewpew, only get 'dicted by NPC's & play the minigame & escape.
That's me, don't really care what others do.
As my siggy shows, hate pewpew, don't do pewpew, only get 'dicted by NPC's & play the minigame & escape.
That's me, don't really care what others do.
And they should.
The only thing I've ever advocated being kept implausible is the inability to directly transfer credits between characters, and if we had a plausible economy, even that would be redundant.
Of course I can.
Have you seen Braben talk about his original vision of the game that many of us were sold on? Link to the relevant segment is in my signature.
I've never ignored such things and have never advocated implausible C&P.
However, one implausible thing, or even a slew of implausible things, does not excuse another.