Option for CMDRs complaining about OP AI

[Faded Glory]

Playing a game to have fun and playing a game to win are two different things, I've stated this elsewhere.

Playing a game to have fun means this fun derives not from winning, but mere engagement or struggle with the content.

Playing a game to win means to want to obtain a sense of omnipotence and control over the content, which is earned through honing one's skill and obtaining mastery over the subject.

Some people seem to be suffering the delusion of wanting to derive fun from "winning," but not wanting to put in the effort that will earn said "winning."

I agree. I'll just emphasize the 'some' part of your statements.

Winning without challenge is pretty boring, so probably not fun, and setting the challenge level well is necessary for players to have fun. That's why I don't like the 'get good' statements, as one players good might be another players very poor, but that shouldn't exclude the 'less good' player from playing if they want to, and it's probably in FD's interest to have those players playing and buying content too.

Yes, some people posting in these threads just want to farm RES, and are seeing that aspect of the game made less lucrative. Personally, I don't think farming should ever have been in the game, but that's just me. Others are commenting because they see the possibility that they will be pushed out of the game (which includes being able to progress towards goals, whether that be credits or ranks), and they would rather that didn't happen.

Effort does not mean necessarily getting better, people will plateau, but they are still putting some effort into playing the game. And as you imply (I think), this game isn't really 'won', it's just played.

 

[Soliluna]

Um, I'm arguing difficulty, not time constraints. Practically anyone can explore provided they can press a single key at a time, the base activity it isn't skill based although you can increase earnings with skill.
Throttle 0 -> Enter system.
Up arrow to avoid star.
Throttle 100% -> scoop.
Discovery scanner.
Arrow keys to point to next system
Hyperspace key.

Running away from a rank or ship that you cannot defeat is even simpler. It's just throttle 0, high wake.

Is that sarcastic enough (yet true)?

Trading also can be done with anyone that has enough time, it's not skill or reaction based except for the bits where you get interdicted which arguably flows into combat. Anyone can trade, again skill does increase profits but you can have next to 0 skill and still make profit. In combat without a reasonable degree of skill you cannot. With 2.1 the minimum required skill is increasing. We are discussing two very very different things here and you seem to be confused..

Nope, the minimum skill requirement is decreasing, as has been repeated so many times it's beginning to hurt. The lower end is easier, the higher end is harder.

I agree with the last bit but as the linked vid from post #24 on this thread shows sometimes it's a little unavoidable and feels a bit like Dark Souls where the game just decides that it's had enough and you will die now. Except in Elite death can mean significant loss of assets which can only be gained through spending time in the game.

I've never felt that to be true, enough information is provided regarding the pilot you encounter and their intentions are generally obvious.

Wait, did you put sarcasm back on without saying? You sneaky sneaky person!
Yes you took my argument to ad infinitum, slow clap!! All I was pointing out is that without difficulty settings or levelled areas like traditional MMO games (or even games in general) it's a good way to get players to turn around and say "screw this" when they get wasted by the AI in seconds for the 5th time that day and have no options for reducing said difficulty.

Unless your intended audience for a game have health conditions that are a barrier for entry to other titles it's a moot point really. These people are not the intended audience of the game, it's sad that they have life changing problems but they're not the intended audience.

Edit - Lots of games cater for the lowest common denominator, Call of Duty games still start by saying use wsad to move. I'm not suggesting that for a second but I wanted to raise awareness amongst the "experienced" players that not everyone can "git good" and if we raise the bar too high they will simply move on or sit here on the forums complaining.



To clarify, I'm not saying they can't, I don't have data to prove that and as I mentioned I'm sure most are vastly capable at adapting. I'm just hypothesising that if me with my relatively high experience and good reactions/micromanagement (I play too many games) is finding it a touch troublesome others with less experience and reactions may find impossible.
Also I'm not saying the AI is uber, I've posted again above here where I re-evaluated somewhat. My initial post was from flying small ships like Eagles & cobra's whereas I had a different experience in an FDL.

Responses in bold.

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Playing a game to have fun and playing a game to win are two different things, I've stated this elsewhere.

Playing a game to have fun means this fun derives not from winning, but mere engagement or struggle with the content.

Playing a game to win means to want to obtain a sense of omnipotence and control over the content, which is earned through honing one's skill and obtaining mastery over the subject.

Some people seem to be suffering the delusion of wanting to derive fun from "winning," but not wanting to put in the effort that will earn said "winning."

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



My original quote is to seek approval for indolence, which I will reiterate.

The AIs are dependent upon a player's rank and their own rank for measure of competency, those that want to take on every NPC should be prepared to exceed the skill range of the top-tier NPCs, not downgrading every NPC to mediocrity.

As always, I have to spread the rep around GF.

 

[SpeakerToAliens]

Why did anyone even think that making the AI difficulty level depend on your own rank would be a good idea?

I said the NPCs should match your skills and ship's capabilities more closely. Why? To stop new CMDRs quitting because they keep getting killed. To stop CMDRs in small ships getting killed back to Trevithic by elite NPCs in large ships (it's bad enough when CMDRs do it, having NPCs do it too would really suck ). To make the game more interesting by stopping experienced CMDRs in large tough ships getting interdicted by idiot NPCs in Sideys (it works both ways, see?).

It's a complete departure from realism. Harmless and Elite pilots should be encountering the same kinds of NPCs if they're in the same place and at the same time (well, perhaps have some rookie NPCs be scared off if they figure out they're picking on an elite). To make it survivable for starters, don't put elite NPCs in the starter systems.

How would you define the Starter Systems? If the NPCs are really getting good, new CMDRs are going to be easy pickings for quite a while and you can get a long way from Trevithic just running missions if you fit a fuel scoop to your Sidey.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Responses in bold.

Good luck running from that in #24, I counted 1:24 at 2nd ship drop in and 1:43 at point of engagement with at 1:46 at thrusters offline/shields offline, effectively point of death. Sure their intention was obvious but it is an impossibility to escape and this is just an isolated example, I have other cases in Res sites where a single Alpha damage volley from a FAS took down an engineer boosted FDL shield.

From playing in Beta I can say that my experience is 100% that it is getting harder. I don't see the comments you refer to about it being repeatedly said it's getting easier. I see dev comments saying that harmless ranks etc will be balanced again in Beta but in each case it's pointed out they will still be more advanced than in 2.0. It's also been said several times that this is not the end of AI skill increases, which If I were to quote my 3rd/4th post:

Overall I'm less bothered by the AI changes than I was in the smaller ships. <snip> I still think further improvements will be a danger to the less skilled pilots who will have to either save for a well defended ship or pick their fights very very carefully.

The above question at what point do the AI improvements end is still valid.

Well I'd argue the intended audience was in no small part the crowd that enjoyed Elite in 84, possibly now ageing slightly. Lord knows when I hit 60 I don't expect to be able to game as effectively as I can now.
In any case I don't think it right to exclude anyone deliberately. As I've said many times other MMO's use artificial locked areas or difficulty settings. Elite has neither and therefore I'd wish some form of system (existing or novel) to be put in place. I'm not asking for an AI skill decrease, just something that allows people to play it their way.

Gluttony makes a good point but I don't play all games to hone my skills, some games I play to relax, some games I play for the action, some for the story. Sure I play some for the challenge, recently a friend and myself have been working to take on Expert AI that cheat in Company of Heroes 2. Beating them is immensely satisfying but draining, not something I want in every game I play.
Conversely I sometimes blast around in L4D2 on easy mode because decapitating zombies with a machete is rather fun and stress-relieving.

I must have said this over 50 times on these forums but Elite mixes its genres, we have people flying here that are only after the scientific simulator aspects, there are MMO, nostalgia, RPG, Arcade etc etc. They don't all mix but not everyone is here to hone their combat skills and not everyone takes enjoyment out of that.

Edit: Some challenge is good, too much is bad. Nice middle-ground is ideal. Problem is not everyones middle-ground is the same and there's no slider to adjust. If the AI were as good as the average player that'd be probably a good 25% of the player-base that couldn't compete whilst the top 25% argued it was too easy.


Anyway, I hope in the 4-5 posts I've made here that I've made my position and opinion clear enough. I don't really have anything to add to that at this point so I'll bow out. If anyone wants to ask additional questions etc then please PM me since I hate circular discussions

 

[Soliluna]

Good luck running from that in #24, I counted 1:24 at 2nd ship...

Stop you there. I said throttle to 0. Then high wake.

He fought the interdiction and lost. No high waking then. He even declared the mistakes he made that lead to his death.

 

[Chongo]

I am going to comment here. I have played beta. I am north of fifty with arthritis in my hands, I am never going to have the ability to do FA off, I have to keep things very simple and limit hand movement because every movement of my hands is uncomfortable. I am also very time limited for this reason and real life. My impression is that you have to be selective in the fights you pick. I have not died yet and I fly a cobra. It is most definitely not as easy as it was. Personally I preferred it how it was, because I could really enjoy it at my (rather poor) level of combat skill, rather than just surviving which is what I do now. However I don't believe its impossible to play. The way its set now, I doubt I will ever get to combat Elite because as I climb further up the ranks the AI will scale with me. However, the AI previously was too easy and I think it needed to improve, so I wouldn't wish it to change.

The problem I see for people like myself is that I will eventually reach a point where my rank exceeds my skill level by so much that it becomes very unfun, so what I do think would be nice would be to have areas where less skilled pilots but high ranked pilots can find targets, albeit for limited credits.

Good points, good concerns, and happy to wing anytime and help. CMDR C.B. Mongo

 

[Red Anders]

I think FD goes for that "be ready for anything - it's a deadly galaxy, out there" vibe they originally intended.

Yeah. Thing is, in anything other than an anaconda that means flying a ship intended to do exploration trips of more than 30k light years without carrying one of an srv hangar, pair of AFMUs or a shield (which you kind of need for planetary landings). See, after you add in the necessary fuel scoop, advanced disco scanner and detailed surface scanner along with that gear, you just don't have any more space to fill.

The issue ain't guns, I can stick six of them on an Asp albeit four at level one, the issue is that guns ain't going to make that consistently viable against pve combat ships at 2.1 standard because it will have a lightweight hull, a shield that's good for maybe two shots and won't be fast enough to boost out of range.

'Space is dangerous' I have no issues with at all. 'It is suicidal to explore in an exploration ship' is a concept that could prompt some concern though.

 

[Tetryl]

I said the NPCs should match your skills and ship's capabilities more closely. Why? To stop new CMDRs quitting because they keep getting killed. To stop CMDRs in small ships getting killed back to Trevithic by elite NPCs in large ships (it's bad enough when CMDRs do it, having NPCs do it too would really suck ). To make the game more interesting by stopping experienced CMDRs in large tough ships getting interdicted by idiot NPCs in Sideys (it works both ways, see?).


How would you define the Starter Systems? If the NPCs are really getting good, new CMDRs are going to be easy pickings for quite a while and you can get a long way from Trevithic just running missions if you fit a fuel scoop to your Sidey.

I know... But, really, I have no problem with the occasional Sidewinder interdicting me. The real issue is believability of the universe. If I'm just starting out, is it logical to expect I'll be able to do whatever I want in my sidewinder, in any corner of the universe? Or, well, maybe a Viper, as the Sidewinder would have trouble with some ships.

And once I'm experienced and have a good ship, is it logical that all the safe, nice, civilised regions are suddenly full of rabid, heavily armed maniacs hunting me with top of the line experimental military gear?

I understand the reasoning behind making NPCs scale with player level. But it's easy to do this in a way that makes game progression the opposite of rewarding.

'Space is dangerous' I have no issues with at all. 'It is suicidal to explore in an exploration ship' is a concept that could prompt some concern though.

Maybe FDev listened to the same complaints about PvP, and decided to make Solo suffer from the same problems as Open...

 

[Codger]

The problem I have with the whole "NPC's scale to your combat rating" thing is that your combat rating is meaningless. It goes up and up, based on how many ships you have killed (even if you barely touched them, as long as you got credit). So the longer you are in the game, the higher your combat rating will get, regardless of whether you actually improve or not. It's not really a measure of your skill, at all, so basing encounters on it makes no sense.

 

[ChaosCloud]

Maybe FDev listened to the same complaints about PvP, and decided to make Solo suffer from the same problems as Open...

Totally feels like that at times ^^ especially when they start cheating (the opposite of open's CLing) as in you get them to mess up in SC and fly into the sun and then when you drop anywhere with them being no where even close to you they teleport in and are all like "BITE THE PILLOW"...
I'd take the reset option if I'd get it, I don't care about my rank nor about being shot up by teleporters and interdiction cheaters (turning the vector 180 in an instant).

The problem I have with the whole "NPC's scale to your combat rating" thing is that your combat rating is meaningless. It goes up and up, based on how many ships you have killed (even if you barely touched them, as long as you got credit). So the longer you are in the game, the higher your combat rating will get, regardless of whether you actually improve or not. It's not really a measure of your skill, at all, so basing encounters on it makes no sense.

It actually only goes up for things stronger or as strong as you, you can kill 1000 harmless ones, no damns given if you're master. Atleast that's what was said about it last and given my rank not having moved at all for a while even though I had tons of harmless buggers bother me in 2.0 would I guess that's as it is.
But otherwise are you right, it's just a number so unless it goes down from dying or something does it not matter in the long run.

 

[shadragon]

Can you just give them a 'return to harmless' button for their combat ranking so easier AI will spawn and they can take some time learning how to fly?

Just sayin'...

That's already in the game and it's called "Delete Character Save".