General Orca Fits In A Medium Launch Pad: Why Isn't It A Medium Ship?

AMX-008 GaZowmn

AMX-008 GaZowmn
A while ago I mentioned that the height aside, the Type-7 could fit in a medium pad, and that possible option would be to disable the enter the dock option and related services for it as a compromise to allow it to dock in those facilities:

General - Type-7 Hardpoints: How To Improve Them

The Type-7 is in an odd spot for a large ship, in more ways than one, but today I want to discuss it's hard points. For those interested, I previously commented on how to help the Type-7 and other ships in its predicament (wide & long enough to fit into a smaller landing pad, but to tall to fit...
forums.frontier.co.uk forums.frontier.co.uk

During the discussion, I also brought up the case of the Orca, which is in a similar situation, except for one thing: it's actually a bit shorter than the FAS, which is the tallest medium ship. In other words, unlike the Type-7, the Orca can both fit in the medium landing pad and inside the medium dock.

During the recent Saud Kruger sale I got myself an Orca and now I need to ask directly: why is the Orca not classified as a medium ship if all its dimensions seem to check out for it?
 

Northpin

Northpin
Jose-Juan Kenobi said:
Orca (130.4m) is almost twice as long as the FAS (73.8m)
Click to expand...

So what?
Pad dimensions are as follows:
  • Small (66m x 55m),
  • Medium (150m x 90m),
  • Large (213m x 128m).

Orca fits in a medium pad and it fits in a medium hangar as well

T-7 fits on a medium pad, but apparently it's a bit too tall to fit in a medium hangar
Same for T-6. It comfortably fits in a small pad, but it's a bit too tall for small hangars.
 

Jose-Juan Kenobi

J
Northpin said:
So what?
Pad dimensions are as follows:
  • Small (66m x 55m),
  • Medium (150m x 90m),
  • Large (213m x 128m).

Orca fits in a medium pad and it fits in a medium hangar as well

T-7 fits on a medium pad, but apparently it's a bit too tall to fit in a medium hangar
Same for T-6. It comfortably fits in a small pad, but it's a bit too tall for small hangars.
Click to expand...

Well I didn't know landing pad dimensions, so thanks for that :) but I doubt you have to be at the very limit to fit, there has to be plenty wiggle room.
Also, less than 10 meters clearance on each end is not that much

And this being a luxury passenger vessel, you don't want your VIPs all cramped in a med pad when loading/unloading.

Again, I don't know man, just giving some thoughts aka lame excuses 🙃
 

AMX-008 GaZowmn

AMX-008 GaZowmn
Jose-Juan Kenobi said:
Well I didn't know landing pad dimensions, so thanks for that :) but I doubt you have to be at the very limit to fit, there has to be plenty wiggle room.
Also, less than 10 meters clearance on each end is not that much

And this being a luxury passenger vessel, you don't want your VIPs all cramped in a med pad when loading/unloading.

Again, I don't know man, just giving some thoughts aka lame excuses 🙃
Click to expand...
The Beluga is 209.1m long, so in its case it’s got just 4m clearance total on a large pad (213m long).
 

Taifu

Taifu
If it was allowed to dock on a medium pad with its current slot configuration, would it become the new medium pad trading meta?
 

AMX-008 GaZowmn

AMX-008 GaZowmn
Taifu said:
If it was allowed to dock on a medium pad with its current slot configuration, would it become the new medium pad trading meta?
Click to expand...
Sadly, no: even if we fill all optional internals of the Orca with the largest possible cargo racks, it ends up with 194 tons, which is exactly 100 tons below the Python’s maxiumum capacity of 294 tons.
 

AMX-008 GaZowmn

AMX-008 GaZowmn
Taifu said:
If it was allowed to dock on a medium pad with its current slot configuration, would it become the new medium pad trading meta?
Click to expand...
Doing some additional comparisons as if the Orca was reclassified as a medium sized ship, and to find out if it would be OP in any sense:

-It would be the 4th most expensive medium ship, behind the FDL, Mamba and Python.
-It would tie with the Krait Mk II in mass lock factor (16), yet still be surpassed by the Python (17).
-It would be 3rd place in cargo capacity at 194t, surpassed by both the Krait Mk II (230t) and Python (294t).
-Disappointingly, it also ends in 3rd place in passenger capacity (96), again surpassed by the Krait Mk II (114) and Python (146).
-Jump range wise, with no engineering and empty hardpoints, utility mounts and optional internals, it again ends in 3rd place 33LY), behind the Krait Phantom and Asp Explorer (both around 35LY).
-With 1 large and 2 medium hardpoints, its at least capable of core mining, unlike the Type-7, but overall seems to be middle of the row as far as hardpoints go.
-With 4 utility slots it sits along most other medium ships in the average.

Where the Orca seems to shine is in speed boost:
-The wikia puts the Orca at the very top of boost, even ahead of the Mamba, but switching place sin the raw speed category.
-Coriolis.io puts it tied with the Mamba in boost, but also 2nd place in regard to raw speed.

Unfortunately, the similarities with the Mamba also includes the downsides:
-Coriolis.io would put it as the least agile medium ship, followed by the Mamba and Federal Gunship.
-The wikia meanwhile would list it tied to the Federal Gunship and surpassed by both the Federal Dropship and Python.

So I guess it could be considered a sort of non-combat version of the Mamba: a very fast, but not very maneuverable ship with good jump range and high cargo/passenger capacity, though not exceeding at any particular category, unless you consider OP a very fast non-combat as such.

Overall, I think it would be a good addition to the medium ship ranks: not groundbreaking by any measure, but as a good option as multipurpose ship that could fit a variety of roles (preferably non-combat), and I think it's always good to have more (viable) options.

Thoughts?
 

Dillon Fallon

Dillon Fallon
Or- make the Orca bigger so it doesn't fit on a medium pad and increase its weight. Now it's heavier, reinstate it's original ram damage.
 

AMX-008 GaZowmn

AMX-008 GaZowmn
Jmanis said:
Good to know that's just as immutable as the size classification of the Orca (y)
Click to expand...
Do you remember "Reserved Compartments"? They were the civilian equivalent of restricted Military module compartments, only able to equip things like cargo racks and passenger cabins. The only ships that had them were the Dolphin, Orca and Beluga, but in the end FD decided to remove the restriction and reclassify them into regular unrestricted module compartments. Therefore I think that the reclassification of the Orca itself is also possible.

In the case of the Orca, it fits nicely on all dimensions within a medium landing pad. The same is not true for the Imperial Clipper, which would need either:
-Retractable/foldable wings to reduce its width when landing.
-Being scaled down/reduced in size.
-Make all medium landings pads wider.

There could always be the unsightly option of ignoring the physical impossibilities and allow it to land anyway for the sake gameplay (though I would much prefer that not to be the case), even if it clipped through parts of the dock structure. Reminds me of how the Type-9 without auto-dock sometimes seems to clip through the right side of the mail slot when observed with the external cameras.

Bottomline is, the Orca would fit perfectly in a medium landing pad right now without any changes... and without looking weird in the process, which isn't true for the Imperial Clipper, which spec wise I would agree seems more suitable for being a medium ship, but much like the Type-7, can't work out like one without some compromises, like those I enumerated.

At least in the case of the Type-7 I could imagine it being allowed to operate in a medium landing pad as long as it wasn't allowed into the inner dock (and by extension disabling any services that require such action). An Imperial Clipper outright wouldn't be to fit in the landing pad elevator, which is necessary for ships to change direction before launching.
 

Alreech

A
AMX-008 GaZowmn said:
During the recent Saud Kruger sale I got myself an Orca and now I need to ask directly: why is the Orca not classified as a medium ship if all its dimensions seem to check out for it?
Click to expand...
Because Frontier didn't bother with putting up ship tiers & with tweaking ship models to fit them into the landing pads.

The T6 should be the in the small (landing pad) ship tier to have a dedictad trader as alternative to the multirole Cobra MK III, but the model is to tall for small pads.
The T7 should be in the medium tier to have a better dedicated trader as alternative to the multirole Python, but the model is to tall for medium pads.

So the T6 & T7 are basically useless except as step to a Python, and with the high paying wing missions getting a Python isn't what much of a problem.
 

RetroPaladin

RetroPaladin
Alreech said:
Because Frontier didn't bother with putting up ship tiers & with tweaking ship models to fit them into the landing pads.

The T6 should be the in the small (landing pad) ship tier to have a dedictad trader as alternative to the multirole Cobra MK III, but the model is to tall for small pads.
The T7 should be in the medium tier to have a better dedicated trader as alternative to the multirole Python, but the model is to tall for medium pads.

So the T6 & T7 are basically useless except as step to a Python, and with the high paying wing missions getting a Python isn't what much of a problem.
Click to expand...
I suggest you to make this as separate Suggstion thread and call it "Ship Rebalance". Changing sizes to compatibility with landing pads, internal sizes for diversity(like superiority of Python above Types) etc etc.
I'll support this.
 

Alreech

A
RetroPaladin said:
I suggest you to make this as separate Suggstion thread and call it "Ship Rebalance". Changing sizes to compatibility with landing pads, internal sizes for diversity(like superiority of Python above Types) etc etc.
I'll support this.
Click to expand...
lol, that was a suggestion made long time ago, Frontier didn't care.
 
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