i am sure this has been talked about but i don't know will the game ever add these orcas or dolphins if the argument is they don't do good out of the wild then really no animal what to live in any kind of cage ever just saying
Orcas Dolphins
- Thread starter razedbyewolves
- Start date
Many species do very well in captivity, none is a cetacean.
wrong none should be in captivity no matter how we feel they where not created that way if they could talk i dont think any animal would say Gee let me take these 4 walls over what i was created to be in but that's not why i posted this
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Humans keeping wild animals and acting as their stewards is obviously a complex moral issue. But unless one wants to take a completely "black and white" approach to the ethics, it's reasonable to think that not all species are the same when it comes to their welfare in zoos and wildlife parks.
Some have social and environmental needs that are easier to provide in captivity than others. Many species of animal live longer in zoos nowadays than they do in the wild. While that is not a perfect way of assessing welfare, it is one measure we can use to determine whether we are caring for them adequately. Another is to look for stereotyped and neurotic behaviors in captive animals. Zoos have come a long way since they displayed anxiously pacing tigers or rocking bears in tiny, concrete cages.
Some species have been brought back from the brink of extinction and re-introduced in the wild successfully via captive breeding programs by zoos, for instance. And judging by how well some species breed in captivity, you can argue that not all are equally stressed. Plus, zoos can maximize genetic diversity in species that have small populations, freeze semen and ova and cell samples to possibly bring species back in the future if catastrophe strikes, and they allow research that promotes better understanding of various species and animal behavior, and they educate the public and foster support for animal welfare and conservation.
However, whales lie at one end of a continuum, and so far it's been impossible to give them adequate space and enrichment for them to live as long as they typically do in the wild. They also show signs of neurosis and depression that can't be alleviated with the resources we have. And a primary purpose of marine parks has been pure entertainment rather than breeding and re-introduction of endangered cetaceans. The tanks they keep whales and dolphins in in marine parks are sort of the equivalent of keeping a person in an empty, bare room.
Given what humans are still doing to the environment and natural habitats, I'm afraid zoos are the only chance some species have to survive. But they haven't been helpful with cetaceans, who live in a truly alien environment to us.
Some have social and environmental needs that are easier to provide in captivity than others. Many species of animal live longer in zoos nowadays than they do in the wild. While that is not a perfect way of assessing welfare, it is one measure we can use to determine whether we are caring for them adequately. Another is to look for stereotyped and neurotic behaviors in captive animals. Zoos have come a long way since they displayed anxiously pacing tigers or rocking bears in tiny, concrete cages.
Some species have been brought back from the brink of extinction and re-introduced in the wild successfully via captive breeding programs by zoos, for instance. And judging by how well some species breed in captivity, you can argue that not all are equally stressed. Plus, zoos can maximize genetic diversity in species that have small populations, freeze semen and ova and cell samples to possibly bring species back in the future if catastrophe strikes, and they allow research that promotes better understanding of various species and animal behavior, and they educate the public and foster support for animal welfare and conservation.
However, whales lie at one end of a continuum, and so far it's been impossible to give them adequate space and enrichment for them to live as long as they typically do in the wild. They also show signs of neurosis and depression that can't be alleviated with the resources we have. And a primary purpose of marine parks has been pure entertainment rather than breeding and re-introduction of endangered cetaceans. The tanks they keep whales and dolphins in in marine parks are sort of the equivalent of keeping a person in an empty, bare room.
Given what humans are still doing to the environment and natural habitats, I'm afraid zoos are the only chance some species have to survive. But they haven't been helpful with cetaceans, who live in a truly alien environment to us.
its not black an white they have spirits so that rules that out maybe if they where a sentient life form created in side a computer that's not my point here and u are right zoos are some what ok the only black and white thing is how people treat animals good or bad and your right i don't like tanks i would make an ocean for them in the game just to watch them how they live when i surf in real life there some times right there, wolves dont like zoos nor do some big Cats and some birds that live in sky. i just wanted to know if the game was going to put them in the game and me being native American (Apache) i know all about what people do. the zoo i have made in the game each habit is like a small town any way that's about it
Planet Zoo is a zoo game first and foremost. Just like it's predecessors, I feel like you should be able to host cetaceans ingame. Obviously we all know true limitations in the real world, but just as the Polar Bear when it was first released, we know Frontier will cater to the demands that these creatures require. I feel like they'd be a fun addition that could shake up gameplay.
The issue is that, for cetaceans, the whole map would not be sufficient to meet their needs, unlike many other species in-game.
Yes, it’s a game. But the game is explicitly, according to the makers of the game, meant to include conservation and animal welfare education. You are, of course, free to have whatever opinion you like about the issue but, for me, the inclusion of cetaceans would not be ‘a fun inclusion that could shake up gameplay’ it would be an unfortunate money grab that would totally undermine the stated educational goals of the game with the inclusion of animals who’s inclusion takes the place of other, better choices.
Frankly, I don't want to have cetaceans, even killer whales are my favorite animals. Because when I was little I loved seeing them but now I don't like seeing them for several reasons.
1. They are pools that are much too small and I don't like seeing them in pools
2. I prefer to see them in the natural environment where they all want the space.
3. Also I have a video of angry llama and there I was shocked. What are they doing with the Orcas and the name of the video is (13 things Water Parks are hiding from us)
4. I'm not sure but I heard once I don't know where. That Marineland will be closed because of a demonstration in less than 48 hours with several signatures and I agree with them.
1. They are pools that are much too small and I don't like seeing them in pools
2. I prefer to see them in the natural environment where they all want the space.
3. Also I have a video of angry llama and there I was shocked. What are they doing with the Orcas and the name of the video is (13 things Water Parks are hiding from us)
4. I'm not sure but I heard once I don't know where. That Marineland will be closed because of a demonstration in less than 48 hours with several signatures and I agree with them.
Okay the game's all about conservation and animal welfare education, yet you have a subreddit occasionally flooded with tons of images of albino animals, often interbred to be obtained. If Frontier's main goal would be to spread awareness and educate people about animals (spoiler; it's not), then they are doing quite a bad job on educating people about albino animals. Especially given that in a lot of "zoos" in the US, animals are interbred to obtain more albinos cause those attract more visitors and thus more money. It's a game, made by a company that probably cares more about profit than about the conservation message they are sending. So in the end, if there's enough demand for something, they will probably do it. Cetaceans are in this weird spot where adding them may or may not hurt profits due to the controversy attached to them, but there's still a lot of other less controversial animals that they still added.
Deleted member 275623
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Its a game. Who cares if its good for the animal what?! A videogame!!! Lmao
Even if you dont think so, what we consume in any sort of media has an impact on our thinking, even if it is subtle. I would not mind cetaceans, but I understand the counterpoints of the other side. In the end, it depends solely on Frontier, but judging by the polar bear requirments, where they went all crazy with the real life animal wellfare over reasonable gameplay, I dont believe we will see cetaceans in game.
I am happy to have orca's and dolphins in the game 
i have created large areas for them and the map is big enough...
If people complain about space, they should look at all the other animals and exhibit animals.. for those it is the exact same thing, but then it is ok???
And yes.. it is a game, with a large map and endless possibilities.. so i am happy to have the orca's and dolphins in my zoo
i have created large areas for them and the map is big enough...If people complain about space, they should look at all the other animals and exhibit animals.. for those it is the exact same thing, but then it is ok???
And yes.. it is a game, with a large map and endless possibilities.. so i am happy to have the orca's and dolphins in my zoo
It is not the space alone which is a problem with cetaceans, but also the water, because they are marine animals and are often kept in fresh water, because it is quite difficult to provide such a huge amount of seawater in a healthy condition with stable water parameters. If you keep such big animals in like "puddles" (even the largest marina is not more than a puddle to an orca), the water quality degrades very rapidly. So it is not the same as the other animals and exhibits.I am happy to have orca's and dolphins in the game
If people complain about space, they should look at all the other animals and exhibit animals.. for those it is the exact same thing, but then it is ok???
And yes.. it is a game, with a large map and endless possibilities.. so i am happy to have the orca's and dolphins in my zoo
So I would think, Frontier wouldn't include them, not only because ot the ethical aspects but also because it would be more "science fiction" as reality to keep them in healthy condition or even breeding them to release them to the wild.
If you are happy with your mod, it is ok for me, but I don't see Frontier adding them officially.
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I'm not strongly against including cetaceans but I find the arguments that there isn't a material difference between cetaceans and species like elephants or polar bears where there are clearly welfare issues in many zoo environments a bit disingenuous. Yes elephants and polar bears need a lot of space in the wild and deserve as much space as possible in captivity but a) cetaceans natural range exceeds what any other species would usually cover b) cetaceans move significantly in a 3D environment - you don't just need wide and long enclosures - you need depth to allow them to exhibit their natural behaviours c) they are so highly social and to offer them the space needed with the numbers needed to form cohesive groups would be extreme.
Plus Shirandhak makes a good point. It is much harder to maintain a high quality marine environment on the scale needed.
Now as I am not particularly bothered about a lot of the realism aspects (unlike many others in this forum) I am not that invested on whether they do it or not BUT I do believe in real life that cetaceans raise significantly more welfare issues in captivity than almost any other family of animals and therefore it would be totally reasonable for frontier to decide not to include them. Plus I don't know of many zoos that have dolphins and whales - they are almost always in specialised marine parks (for obvious reasons).
Plus Shirandhak makes a good point. It is much harder to maintain a high quality marine environment on the scale needed.
Now as I am not particularly bothered about a lot of the realism aspects (unlike many others in this forum) I am not that invested on whether they do it or not BUT I do believe in real life that cetaceans raise significantly more welfare issues in captivity than almost any other family of animals and therefore it would be totally reasonable for frontier to decide not to include them. Plus I don't know of many zoos that have dolphins and whales - they are almost always in specialised marine parks (for obvious reasons).
What would be cool however is a small update which adds cetaceans but makes them exclusive to a scenario map that's basically entirely filled with water, with maybe islands dotted around. The challenge would then be to set up some kind of whale watching sanctuary with a research centre. Instead of buying cetaceans from the trade centre, players would need to put enrichment items etc. to attract wild cetaceans to the islands. Focus of this scenario would be education and not keeping cetaceans in small enclosures, as they can come and go (enter and leave the map) as they please.
True.
I do think there's an PEGI rating element involved in some cases, they do care about accessibility.
I can imagine and just guessing that countries/regions that passed 'banning laws' concerning captive/breeding cetaceans, will not like the idea of a game that "promotes" this. .
If you look at video games controversies, there are some silly stories. Usually when something is controversial in RL, it's portrayal in any media is part of the discussion as well.
Actually getting an Albino in PZ with just random luck is difficult and very rare. It's the market/player that makes it easier to get albinos.
Selling animals with poor life expectancy or inbreeded animals could be part of the same discussion. Or even releasing albino animals into the wild.
In the middle on this one.
Personally think people who dislike the idea of animals in zoos shouldn't be playing the game in the first place, that argument has been used a lot in these discussions.
But we can dismiss a lot of other arguments as well with your argument. There's a biome thread, you can easily brush off that thread with that same logic. (it's just a game)
Deleted member 275623
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The fact we can have this argument, holy its sooo sad....
It's a game guys. I used to work for SeaWorld and see the backstage real help that is done and the philosophy of the company. SeaWorld is a huge reason I fell in love with conservation and animals in the first place when I visited them in my childhood. I honestly understand most of the criticisms of them and similar parks, but it really has become overblown. We really need to find ways to make sure the cetaceans currently in captivity can live as best of a life as they can (like we did when we changed how elephant habitats in captivity work.) and we definitely shouldn't be forcing them to do shows for purely entertainment purposes, we also need to make their habitats more natural and larger (Something SeaWorld, unfortunately, has decided against). I personally don't agree with the way captivity of cetaceans is handled currently, but we're almost giving into PETA and other organizations and people who truly don't understand how helpful captivity is and how it works. My position is that the game can use the inclusion of cetaceans to educate its player base and allow us to have what I value most: PLAYER CHOICE. If I want to role-play a marine park that isn't 100% moral (like you can do with albinos), or role-play that we're the park that does it right, or make a rescue facility, then that's important as well. If you don't want them don't buy the potential dlc. Frontier like all companies only cares about the bottom line. I would drop a ton of money on an aquarium expansion with cetaceans. Cetaceans are facing the same plights as many other creatures on our planet and captivity might be an important way to help them survive. There's plenty of ways they could potentially handle it that will be less controversial.
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Basically a free pass for all kinds of DLC, right?
Never liked that comment, it doesn't hold up that well.
Fantasy, extinct, dinos, DLC 4+1 with building pieces, animal packs, scenery/pieces packs.